Panasonic ZT60 (now ZT65)

[BenLaw]

These are panasonic's setting for the kuro? I'm not sure it's as clear cut that they're being naughty as is suggested, and may be a lesson in personal taste. The middle pic is more washed out but look at the contrast between the purple tuby things and the pink flowery things in the bottom left. The colours themselves have changed a lot in the bottom pic but there is less contrast, which doesn't look right. The top looks most unnatural.

Then the plants in the bottom centre - they look very samey in both the top and bottom pics. They also all look very purple. Whereas the middle pic reveals a lot of variation, pinks (!), turquoise, light blue, dark blue. Can you show us a pic with same setting but colour in the middle at 0?

The pics on the WHF blog also seemed to show some advantages to me with the kuro. The reds seemed weird (too weird) but the top left strawberry had a lot more detail in it and the detail in the blacks of the car seemed a lot more.

As you say, it shows settings are very important and much of it may be subjective. I'd trust a detailed review with measurements such as on avforums to see which can get objectively closest to the 'best' picture, ie most faithful to the source material. But I'm guessing both will be stunningly good and the main reason for spending £4k if you have a ninth gen kuro will be as a periodic update or for features rather than a quantum leap in performance. I also agree PJ will be the best move for many at this price.

Yes, they are Panasonic settings for the Kuro. I thought the middle pic colours look unnatural and washed out. I'll click some more pics in the next couple of days with Panasonic's settings & colour at 0. It is difficult to,say what's natural & what's unnatural with an animated image!

We all have different taste, I thought there was more detail on the 1st pic, especially the blue flowers on bottom left, and I preferred the last pic but with more sharpness.

It definitely looks more washed out and less sharp, but there seem to be compromises elsewhere. The detail on the shards of light coming through the water seems much improved on the middle pic compared to the top and the extra colours in the middle flowers on the middle pic is remarkable. Just wondering if you can get 'best of both' with a zero colour setting, ie get the sharpness and warmth back but retain the colour contrast and detail. Pro calibration may be the best way, tho expensive!

 

[bigboss]

It definitely looks more washed out and less sharp, but there seem to be compromises elsewhere. The detail on the shards of light coming through the water seems much improved on the middle pic compared to the top and the extra colours in the middle flowers on the middle pic is remarkable. Just wondering if you can get 'best of both' with a zero colour setting, ie get the sharpness and warmth back but retain the colour contrast and detail. Pro calibration may be the best way, tho expensive!

I see what you mean. I last used the THX optimiser more than 2 years ago, and it's clear that the TV needs re optimising. I don't see much point in spending on pro calibration as I'm planning to change my TV next year anyway. I'll fish those THX optimiser glasses out.

Wife's still not entirely convinced with the idea of watching regular TV on a projector. I've got a whole year to convince her with a few demos.

 

[davidvann]

let's face it guys ,next year there will be a bigger better tv by someone next year ,well never be able to keep up with the new tec that comes out each year, i 've had quiet a few tv's in my time phillips, sony, lowe,pioneer i've enjoyed them all ,and is'nt that whats all about.i still love my kuro ,but the new pannels from panasonic are very good,i even like the led to,which i thought i'd never say. cheers david

 

[Deleted member 2457]

You said I had a dig at you - did not. You said you could not care less about my views!

As things go I really really like you, and if I have done something to upset you I apologise too.

I thought you called me an idiot. :?

Anyway, bygones are bygones.

I hardly think you are an idiot!

I was talking in a general sense about the side by side comparison. Why they have done that I still don't know!

Friends?

 

[Deleted member 2457]

let's face it guys ,next year there will be a bigger better tv by someone next year ,well never be able to keep up with the new tec that comes out each year, i 've had quiet a few tv's in my time phillips, sony, lowe,pioneer i've enjoyed them all ,and is'nt that whats all about.i still love my kuro ,but the new pannels from panasonic are very good,i even like the led to,which i thought i'd never say. cheers david

Agree.

 

[bigboss]

Friends?

Always been.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Friends?

Always been.

And always will be.

:cheers: Mate.

 

[BenLaw]

It definitely looks more washed out and less sharp, but there seem to be compromises elsewhere. The detail on the shards of light coming through the water seems much improved on the middle pic compared to the top and the extra colours in the middle flowers on the middle pic is remarkable. Just wondering if you can get 'best of both' with a zero colour setting, ie get the sharpness and warmth back but retain the colour contrast and detail. Pro calibration may be the best way, tho expensive!

I see what you mean. I last used the THX optimiser more than 2 years ago, and it's clear that the TV needs re optimising. I don't see much point in spending on pro calibration as I'm planning to change my TV next year anyway. I'll fish those THX optimiser glasses out.

Wife's still not entirely convinced with the idea of watching regular TV on a projector. I've got a whole year to convince her with a few demos.

Do you need to? I've always thought the best combo would be a TV with a remote controlled drop down screen just in front for PJ use for films. In a few years time the amount you'd make selling your tv won't be huge, so why not keep it for TV? Better in daytime than a pj, save the pj lifetime and make watching a film more of an event.

 

[BenLaw]

Friends?

Always been.

And always will be.

:cheers: Mate.

I feel sick.

 

[bigboss]

Do you need to? I've always thought the best combo would be a TV with a remote controlled drop down screen just in front for PJ use for films. In a few years time the amount you'd make selling your tv won't be huge, so why not keep it for TV? Better in daytime than a pj, save the pj lifetime and make watching a film more of an event.

Yes, that's an option as well.

 

[bigboss]

Friends?

Always been.

And always will be.

:cheers: Mate.

I feel sick.

 

[BenLaw]

Do you need to? I've always thought the best combo would be a TV with a remote controlled drop down screen just in front for PJ use for films. In a few years time the amount you'd make selling your tv won't be huge, so why not keep it for TV? Better in daytime than a pj, save the pj lifetime and make watching a film more of an event.

Yes, that's an option as well.

You still planning to build your own room? Will you be soffit mounting speakers?

 

[ellisdj]

With the sharpness @ -15 it will only have lost detail as the grey scale is off - if you check all calibrators of Kuros they all say the same sharpness -15 or off.

They do this by looking at test pattern and seeing where artificial edges are added to the image - If you google it you will see what I mean.

Again going from the pics is hard but to ,e the image looks flay with the Panasonic setting -- no depth the land at the back looks on the same plane as the land at the front. Also the image maybe loosing outright detail but that might be as the director intended to give the image a sense of depth etc.

This is why it cannot be done by eye and needs to be measured properly - once you know its correct via that all other settings are wrong.

 

[strapped for cash]

There are too many variables to say anything definitive. We're looking at photographs of televisions and the photographic process introduces its own anomalies. I like all contributors to this thread, so I've no wish to offend anybody. I also have no right to appoint myself diplomat, though hopefully we can all agree on a few things:

1) We have no idea at present how the ZT60 will perform. It might be the best ever mass produced television (even in limited numbers, there'll still be more ZT60s manufactured than professional grade televisions). Alternatively, the ZT60 may come loaded with problems, such as poor screen uniformity, gamma shifts, excessive buzzing, the 50Hz bug, distracting dynamic false contouring and/or dithering, or perhaps a new issue Panasonic is yet to treat us to.

2) Accuracy out of the box is perhaps as important as what's possible with advanced calibration. The ZT60 should offer 10pt white balance control (hopefully in its optimum picture mode). If so, unless serious compromises were made with new tech, reviewers will post ruler flat greyscale tracking and perfect colour reproduction charts. Many videophiles will get the TV professionally calibrated, but there are already televisions capable of perfect greyscale tracking and colour balance post-calibration. The ZT60 needs to deliver more than pretty charts to justify the price tag.

3) Following on from the above, if the ZT60, like other televisions, can be calibrated to reference levels, it's futile debating whether colours look more or less accurate, or more or less washed out in the photographs above. If properly calibrated, primaries will be the correct shade and saturation. Secondary colours will be spot on, too. Since this is true of other TVs, the ZT60 should be classed as reference status in terms of colour reproduction, but it'll be no better or worse than other televisions that can already do the same.

4) We haven't seen a technical review of any of the OLED TVs being sold this year. They may outperform the ZT60 (albeit at even greater cost).

5) At the kind of money we're talking about, a projector represents better value for those able to accommodate one.

6) We don't get anywhere debating hypotheticals, especially with limited information about a television nobody has tested yet.

In short, we're so ill informed at the moment that it's not worth crossing swords...

EDIT: I didn't see the make-up posts before clicking "save," though you're technically a day early, guys....

 

[bigboss]

You still planning to build your own room? Will you be soffit mounting speakers?

Yes, that's the plan. My first option is to actually build a house, but haven't found decent land around where I want to live at a reasonable price on internet search. I'm looking at a few houses for sale (only casually). There are a few with 2 living rooms / family rooms. That's my ideal choice, as it would allow me to have a dedicated cinema room. Otherwise, it'll again be a lounge cinema.

Things will become more clear by Feb - March next year when I finish my training and apply for a Consultant's post. I am in talks with the hospital already, but cannot apply until Feb 2014.

I quite fancy floor standers this time, something like Kef R500. Of course, I'm also attracted KK speakers with its massive sub. When I start demoing, I'll know which one will suit me best.

Regarding soffit mounting, depends on the speakers I choose eventually.

I'm looking at getting a JVC projector (4K projectors are quiter expensive this year, hopefully cheaper ones will get 4K upscaling next year).

(By 4K I mean ultra HD!)

 

[Deleted member 2457]

http://www.avforums.com/forums/plasma-tvs/1743161-video-panasonic-talks-zt60-vt60-4k-oled-more.html

The VT50 looks better than the Pioneer 600a, which don't surprise me.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Let's just hope they don't get the Kuro out next year or else it will start to get embarrassing!

Pioneer TV fanboys should get over themselves!

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Friends?

Always been.

And always will be.

:cheers: Mate.

I feel sick.

I just have been.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Wow! You two really fell out didn't you.

Ahhhhh, atleast you made up.....................even if it did make me ill.

 

[bigboss]

I personally think the quality of TV components have been compromised since the economic downturn, and emergence of Korean heavyweights (Samsung and LG). Given the amount of problems on the previous 3 generations of Panasonic, we can only hope that the 2013 range is free of them.

Did the Kuro ever suffer from problems from new of the magnitude as the Panasonic models? I can't remember any long threads of problems associated with the Kuro.

 

[strapped for cash]

I personally think the quality of TV components have been compromised since the economic downturn, and emergence of Korean heavyweights (Samsung and LG). Given the amount of problems on the previous 3 generations of Panasonic, we can only hope that the 2013 range is free of them.

Did the Kuro ever suffer from problems from new of the magnitude as the Panasonic models? I can't remember any long threads of problems associated with the Kuro.

Even the mighty Kuro wasn't problem free. If you google "Kuro dirty screen effect" you can find posts from disgruntled owners. I've also read a paper on 9th gen Kuro "red tint" problems. (Google "Plasma Diagnostics" and the PDF is online.)

That said, Pioneer treats its customers with greater respect than Panasonic. I haven't read of Pioneer describing a problem as "within specification." Panasonic's repeated use of this phrase is an insult to customers.

In the last three years, rising and floating blacks, motion problems, blobs, and the dirty screen effect have all been "within spec." Panasonic gets away with this because televisions from other manufacturers are even worse.

As much as it's convenient to blame Korean manufacturers, consumers constantly demanding more for less have contributed to the problem too. And thinking in macro-economic terms, we can also blame the architects of the economic crisis for placing the majority of consumers in a position where they need even greater value for money (though as the Pioneer experience taught us, the high end television market isn't sustainable).

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I personally think the quality of TV components have been compromised since the economic downturn, and emergence of Korean heavyweights (Samsung and LG). Given the amount of problems on the previous 3 generations of Panasonic, we can only hope that the 2013 range is free of them.

Did the Kuro ever suffer from problems from new of the magnitude as the Panasonic models? I can't remember any long threads of problems associated with the Kuro.

Even the mighty Kuro wasn't problem free. If you google "Kuro dirty screen effect" you can find posts from disgruntled owners. I've also read a paper on 9th gen Kuro "red tint" problems. (Google "Plasma Diagnostics" and the PDF is online.)

That said, Pioneer treats its customers with greater respect than Panasonic. I haven't read of Pioneer describing a problem as "within specification." Panasonic's repeated use of this phrase is an insult to customers.

In the last three years, rising and floating blacks, motion problems, blobs, and the dirty screen effect have all been "within spec." Panasonic gets away with this because televisions from other manufacturers are even worse.

As much as it's convenient to blame Korean manufacturers, consumers constantly demanding more for less have contributed to the problem too. And thinking in macro-economic terms, we can also blame the architects of the economic crisis for placing the majority of consumers in a position where they need even greater value for money (though as the Pioneer experience taught us, the high end television market isn't sustainable).

Definitely agree! You only had to look on AVForums or try actually buying a second hand one for the fact to discover the problems they actually had. People exchanged numerous ones due to loud buzzing, the problems Strapped has just identified are true too. My personal view of the Pioneer 5090 was that it was not very well made, sure it looked well made and looked the part, but I would definitely take my Panasonic over it.

Not saying there were not well made Pioneer ones too but there were definitely a lot of rubbish ones! Do you know how many faulty ones appear on eBay? Loads!

 

[bigboss]

I personally think the quality of TV components have been compromised since the economic downturn, and emergence of Korean heavyweights (Samsung and LG). Given the amount of problems on the previous 3 generations of Panasonic, we can only hope that the 2013 range is free of them.

Did the Kuro ever suffer from problems from new of the magnitude as the Panasonic models? I can't remember any long threads of problems associated with the Kuro.

Even the mighty Kuro wasn't problem free. If you google "Kuro dirty screen effect" you can find posts from disgruntled owners. I've also read a paper on 9th gen Kuro "red tint" problems. (Google "Plasma Diagnostics" and the PDF is online.)

That said, Pioneer treats its customers with greater respect than Panasonic. I haven't read of Pioneer describing a problem as "within specification." Panasonic's repeated use of this phrase is an insult to customers.

In the last three years, rising and floating blacks, motion problems, blobs, and the dirty screen effect have all been "within spec." Panasonic gets away with this because televisions from other manufacturers are even worse.

As much as it's convenient to blame Korean manufacturers, consumers constantly demanding more for less have contributed to the problem too. And thinking in macro-economic terms, we can also blame the architects of the economic crisis for placing the majority of consumers in a position where they need even greater value for money (though as the Pioneer experience taught us, the high end television market isn't sustainable).

I've never experienced Panasonic's customer service. When my Kuro developed a fault last year, Pioneer first asked me my 5-year warranty registration number but I didn't have the warranty card with me. He didn't insist on it, & arranged for repairs immediately, The warranty runs out next year, so will be looking to change my TV. Looking at the various problems Panasonic is suffering, I am hesitant to buy one at this point. I've decided to buy a projector instead, & will keep my Kuro for general TV viewing until it dies on me.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I personally think the quality of TV components have been compromised since the economic downturn, and emergence of Korean heavyweights (Samsung and LG). Given the amount of problems on the previous 3 generations of Panasonic, we can only hope that the 2013 range is free of them.

Did the Kuro ever suffer from problems from new of the magnitude as the Panasonic models? I can't remember any long threads of problems associated with the Kuro.

Even the mighty Kuro wasn't problem free. If you google "Kuro dirty screen effect" you can find posts from disgruntled owners. I've also read a paper on 9th gen Kuro "red tint" problems. (Google "Plasma Diagnostics" and the PDF is online.)

That said, Pioneer treats its customers with greater respect than Panasonic. I haven't read of Pioneer describing a problem as "within specification." Panasonic's repeated use of this phrase is an insult to customers.

In the last three years, rising and floating blacks, motion problems, blobs, and the dirty screen effect have all been "within spec." Panasonic gets away with this because televisions from other manufacturers are even worse.

As much as it's convenient to blame Korean manufacturers, consumers constantly demanding more for less have contributed to the problem too. And thinking in macro-economic terms, we can also blame the architects of the economic crisis for placing the majority of consumers in a position where they need even greater value for money (though as the Pioneer experience taught us, the high end television market isn't sustainable).

I've never experienced Panasonic's customer service. When my Kuro developed a fault last year, Pioneer first asked me my 5-year warranty registration number but I didn't have the warranty card with me. He didn't insist on it, & arranged for repairs immediately, The warranty runs out next year, so will be looking to change my TV. Looking at the various problems Panasonic is suffering, I am hesitant to buy one at this point. I've decided to buy a projector instead, & will keep my Kuro for general TV viewing until it dies on me.

That is what you have always said anyway, but are you sure you are going to be able to deal with the fact of not owning the best TV in the world any longer?

 

[bigboss]

That is what you have always said anyway, but are you sure you are going to be able to deal with the fact of not owning the best TV in the world any longer?

Oh well, I'll own the best projector in the world instead!