Two full UK reviews of the Panasonic TX-P65VT65B plasma

[strapped for cash]

Yeah, I'm really interested to see the results.

I'd imagine the difference is bigger than with 2D calibration, because 3D images out of the box are usually wider of the mark.

Obviously you'd need to attach the glasses to the meter in some way; and you'd need to be careful that the glasses don't scratch the AR coating. Even then I'm not sure how things would work out. Have you considered trying?

FWIW, I've had a chance to compare the TPS glasses with the latest Panny ones a bit more. I prefer the Panny glasses in certain regards. They dim images more, but blacks look a bit washed out using the TPS glasses, even if you roughly calibrate (using AVS patterns with 2D-3D engaged on the TV).

Then again, the TPS glasses are rechargeable, more comfortable, and block more ambient light. I'll need to decide which glasses I'm keeping before Wednesday, too, as this will make considerably more difference than switching BDP. I should probably chat to Jules about this as well...

 

[ellisdj]

Thats funny I have been testing the 3D3 as well but I prefer them to the Pannys - I get a kind of floating blacks in avatar with the Pannys - I think I might know why now though.

The Pannys definately appear more colourful - but I think the end result will be better with the 3D3 as they have lighter lenses and you need to blast the contrast much less with them to get a good image. I found brightness +7 is needed with the 3D3 contrast 82 - colour 67 and normal and high luminance, edge smoother on and some sharpness about 25 to compensate for bad greyscale.

I dont know if you noticed the error with the 3D3 glasses, really the instructions - I have a good eye for stuff like this

Firstly you have to set them to be optimised to Samsung - ie. double click so you get 5 fashes on the blue led - that makes a Huge difference to the performance! I had a good chat with Craig who does the firmware for them - he said I was right pointing out the error and they need to change the manual

C lours look off with lots purple fringing with them set to Panasonic mode (solid light) - try them again mate in Samsung mode if you havent already. really makes a difference. They are much more 3D then the Pannys - everyone I have had test them both prefer the 3D3 when they go back and fourth

Secondly you need the tv set to the right refresh otherwise you get errors and flickering in the left eye. Avatar is best on 100hz and other films better on 120htz so selecting auto covers that and stops flickeringI have found so far

I just bought a second set and tested them fior a few seconds with Titanic that came today - was looking **** hot

 

[strapped for cash]

I had no idea the glasses could be optimised to work a specific manufacturer's products. (I was under the impression that they auto-sync with any TV and that's that.) I'll give it a try, so cheers for the info.

Out of interest, which 3D3s do you have? I have the A1112s rather than the A1111s. I'm not sure what the difference is, or indeed if there is any difference, apart from the price.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Strapped

I dont know if you looked through the manual and if they have changed it.

Apparently their older glasses only came with the firmware for the cusotmers particular set - now they have the option to change between 2 to suit diff tvs to make the glasses more universal.

However the a1112 i have auto default to Panasonic but thats only good for the 50 range, the new 65 range works better on the samsung mode.

They told me they knew - I have a funny feeling I pointed this out to them - either way it doesnt matter.

the only difference between the a1111 and a1112 is that the a1111 do IR as well as BT so for older tvs as well.

Make sure your glasses have the latest firmware mate so that you can select samsung mode - they are changing the name to mode 2.

doublke click the button so you get 5 quick successive flashes and you are good to go - once the settings are changed.

 

[davidvann]

hi ellisdj you can come and calibrate my tv if you like i have been looking in to getting mine done,from reading what you said about calibration its sound well worth doing.cheers david

 

[strapped for cash]

Hi Strapped

I dont know if you looked through the manual and if they have changed it.

Apparently their older glasses only came with the firmware for the cusotmers particular set - now they have the option to change between 2 to suit diff tvs to make the glasses more universal.

However the a1112 i have auto default to Panasonic but thats only good for the 50 range, the new 65 range works better on the samsung mode.

They told me they knew - I have a funny feeling I pointed this out to them - either way it doesnt matter.

the only difference between the a1111 and a1112 is that the a1111 do IR as well as BT so for older tvs as well.

Make sure your glasses have the latest firmware mate so that you can select samsung mode - they are changing the name to mode 2.

doublke click the button so you get 5 quick successive flashes and you are good to go - once the settings are changed.

Thanks Ellis DJ,

I'll experiment tonight. As I have Panny and TPS glasses, I only need to decide which ones to hand to Jules when he turns up on Wednesday.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results. I'd considered going the DIY route like yourself, but getting Jules in is cheaper in the short term. I'm pressed for time, too, though I'm sure I'll buy a meter and Calman (probably) at some point in the future.

 

[strapped for cash]

Hi EllisDJ,

I'm hugely confused now.

There's nothing in the manual about optimising the glasses to work with a specific manufacturer's TV. I accessed the TPS website and downloaded the latest manual; and again there's nothing about the processes you mention.

I've tried hitting the operation button twice in succession as you describe, but this has no effect, even if I try this procedure repeatedly standing right next to the television. The glasses work perfectly fine, but nothing I do influences how they work, unless I switch between 100 and 120Hz on the TV, in which case the glasses sync automatically at the new refresh rate.

When you talk about updating firmware, presumably you mean updating the TV's firmware. (As I understand it, it's impossible to update the glasses' firmware, unless I'm missing something fundamental here.)

 

[ellisdj]

Strapped mate

I meant the glasses firmware - I have the latest firmware v5.5 but the glasses are the same A1112

You might be able to get them updated as you have now changed your tv. I find the firmware for the vt50 pannys really doesn't work well but not sure how yours compare obviously.

You have 2 options on the glasses now to make the glasses more universal - I thought yours would be the same but obviously not. Thinks that's why you prefer the pannys, you might prefer them anyway

 

[strapped for cash]

Strapped mate

I meant the glasses firmware - I have the latest firmware v5.5 but the glasses are the same A1112

You might be able to get them updated as you have now changed your tv. I find the firmware for the vt50 pannys really doesn't work well but not sure how yours compare obviously.

You have 2 options on the glasses now to make the glasses more universal - I thought yours would be the same but obviously not. Thinks that's why you prefer the pannys, you might prefer them anyway

Thanks v. much mate.

Hmm, that makes life complicated. I'm guessing I'd have to return the glasses to TPS to update the firmware. I wouldn't have time to do this before Wednesday, so I'll have to make a decision regarding which glasses to hand over to Jules before calibration. Whatever I decide I might as well sell the other glasses, since the TV would be calibrated to account for the glasses' tint, amount of light passing through the lenses, etc.

Out of interest, what do the 3D3s (updated with the latest firmware) give you that the Panny glasses don't? Also, how do you find black level using the 3D3s? I find images look quite washed out and MLL looks pretty grey, even after proper adjustment of brightness and contrast.

I prefer the 3D3s for general comfort and the amount of ambient light blocked. Obviously they're rechargeable, too, so no messing around with batteries. I don't see how firmware would affect tint or brightness levels.

 

[ellisdj]

Hi Strapped

you have a couple of options - first is a call to TPS and speak to Craig to see what they say about the glasses you have firmware.

See what he says about your glasses performance with the vt65 - I would explain your getting the TV cal'd see what he suggests

you could buy a new set and get them by Tuesday - however don't just take my word for it as its £40

testing them both I preferred the 3D3 but unless you see them going properly you won't know, in terms of black performance the main scene I can think of is vioerwolves in avatar and its stunning through the 3d3. I find they have more pop to the picture and are clearer. 3D3 are supposed to be Putting up some reco settings but we'll see. That's no good for you either

if you get pannys 3d cal'd then I still think they will be ace mate

 

[ellisdj]

I will test again for you tomorrow mate,

 

[strapped for cash]

Thanks mate.

As TPS won't be open tomorrow, I've dropped them a PM. I'll see what they say.

Ideally I'd like to hang on to the 3D3s, for the better build quality and the fact that they're rechargeable. As you say, I can get another pair delivered, if there's any difference. I might also pop down to RS to pick up a CA 651BD on Monday. Since I'm getting a pro-cal, it seems sensible to stick with the same components for a good while. The Panny 120 is an excellent performer for the price, but it's a bit flimsy and I'm not sure how long it'll last.

It'll be a relatively expensive week, but I can claw some of the money back by selling the Panny BDP and glasses (and perhaps my current 3D3s if I need to replace them).

 

[BenLaw]

What are you going to do to the 120 that would mean it won't last? My Sony BDPs are more plasticky than I would like / than most of my other components but they sit where they sit and are unmolested, and I don't expect them spontaneously to break.

 

[strapped for cash]

I'm not planning on doing anything unusual to the 120. It might still be going strong five years from now. By the same token, I could buy the CA and it could break the next day. I'd have more faith in the sturdily built machine, though.

I'm debating whether to pick up a CA 651BD now that they're cheap. The 651 upscales better than the 120 and is quieter in operation. As for 1080p playback, well, let's not start that one again. I'll be interested to compare the two BDPs in this regard, but I don't anticipate any difference.

To be honest, the AV snob in me doesn't like a budget BDP sat among expensive equipment, even if it's hidden from view. Make of that what you will. The decision may be entirely irrational, which is why I'm debating whether it's worth it. I still have quite a few DVDs and some 1080i BDs, so there may be some value in the purchase. I also don't have a SACD player, so the 651 would fill a gap in that regard. If I hadn't bought the Teac PDH-500 CDP, I'd definitely do it.

 

[BenLaw]

Tbh I don't see much relation between outer build quality and internal reliability and in many ways I'd prefer the product of the huge multinational in that regard. I've always found panasonic's reliability in particular to be excellent. So to justify it on that ground may be irrational. It's not irrational to justify it on looks / pride of ownership if that's important to you and worth the cost, but I'd say you're better concentrating on that real issue. The DVD upscaling is worth an audition to see the significance of the difference, I'm not sure speculation on that point necessarily justifies the cost.

Fwiw I agree with your earlier post that the source for 1080p material should make no difference for your calibration, so there should be no need to rush into a purchase if you don't want to.

 

[strapped for cash]

My main concern is which 3D glasses to use, as that will make a substantial difference to the calibration. The lenses' tint and the amount of light passing through differ greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer. If I ultimately use a different brand of glasses, 3D calibration becomes pointless.

 

[BenLaw]

Your last description of the 3D3s being 'washed out' and 'grey' didn't sound good. Is that not decisive for the panasonics?

 

[ellisdj]

Strappee in theory the image after a cal should be the same whatever glasses are used to do it with. The cal will compensate for the glasses tint.

If yiu choose to use 3D3 then don't sell the pair get them updated.

Craig from TPS did actually say you could calibrate the 3D3 to counter act the effects of their firmwares i.e they would be spot on after

Then its a case of other factors - shame cant get 2 cals done one for each pair of glasses on pro1 and pro2 to compare then

 

[strapped for cash]

Strapped in theory the image after a cal should be the same whatever glasses are used to do it with. The cal will compensate for the glasses tint.

If yiu choose to use 3D3 then don't sell the pair get them updated.

Craig from TPS did actually say you could calibrate the 3D3 to counter act the effects of their firmwares i.e they would be spot on after

Then its a case of other factors - shame cant get 2 cals done one for each pair of glasses on pro1 and pro2 to compare then

I'm not sure the image after calibration would be the same. While you can compensate for the tint, you can't compensate for the dimming effects of each set of glasses. You can change the brightness level, but as you know, this won't change MLL. If I set brightness and contrast using the AVS patterns, this doesn't compensate for the slightly more washed out look I get with the 3D3s.

So any owner has to decide whether they want a slightly brighter image with less impressive MLL, or a dimmer image with better MLL. I did some testing late last night and I preferred the slightly darker, punchier image you get using the Panasonic glasses.

Unless the latest 3D3 firmware somehow compensates for the washed out look (I don't see how this would be possible), the Panasonic glasses seem to make more sense.

As you say, it's a shame I can't get two calibrations done. If I could compare the results I could make an informed decision about which is best. Who'd have though such a small decision would give me such a headache...

 

[ellisdj]

Its not washed out with the right firmware mate shows you have the wrong one because thats how it looks.

With the right firmware its all the strengths none of the weaknesses mate but i will test again later to make sure

 

[strapped for cash]

Thanks Ellis DJ, appreciate it.

I still don't understand how firmware would affect the amount of light passing through the lenses. With the VT65, it seems an advantage if the lenses allow slightly less light through, since the TV is plenty bright enough to my eyes using either set of glasses, but MLL looks poor using the 3D3s.

 

[ellisdj]

The difference is huge mate, you would be surprised thedifference it makes

I think the opposite to you - the lighest lenses possible are best as that replicates not wearing - darker lensee forces you to increase contrast and brightness more and i think thats a bad thing for several reasons

Brightness us still needed on +7 on my set with the 3D3 on mate

Will report back later

 

[strapped for cash]

Will report back later

Much appreciated.

It'd be great to get your thoughts on performance differences between "Sammy mode" and "Panny mode." (Using the 3D3s, does switching between these modes have any influence on MLL?) This will probably be instrumental to my decision.

Also, is there any difference in terms of MLL between the 3D3s set to "Sammy mode" and the latest Panasonic glasses? If the answer is no, this will also influence my decision. (I still don't understand how firmware could afffect the amount of light that passes through the glasses' lenses.)

The constant stream of questions is probably getting annoying, but this one has left me genuinely puzzled.

 

[ellisdj]

What do you mean by mll mate? You talking about luminance levels?

 

[strapped for cash]

Yes, blacks look inky using the Panasonic glasses and a touch washed out using the 3D3s. This is beyond correction through calibration. I can set the TV to reference black through each of the glasses (using AVS patterns), but images still lose some punch when viewing through the 3D3s.

When I think about it, this makes sense. If the Panasonic glasses dim images more than the 3D3s, perceived black level through each pair of glasses will be different. Minimum luminance level is different in 3D mode and it seems the VT65 and Panasonic glasses are optimised to work together. TPS would need to change the 3D3's lenses compensate for this. I don't see how firmware would help.