Hi mate
Message on avf confirms what i have been saying
Still report back on the diff between the 2
Message on avf confirms what i have been saying
Still report back on the diff between the 2
ellisdj said:Hi mate
Message on avf confirms what i have been saying
Still report back on the diff between the 2
Thanks mate; appeciate your help.
Craid advised that there's new firmware, though I'm still not sure what difference it makes; and I still don't see how the amount of light passing through the lenses would be any different. :?
First on that point - its the way the lense close that I think makes all the differene - therefore changing that makes a big difference - they probably change the level the lenses darken to in the firmware and maybe the rate of it as well.
Right my Report - testing was using Avatar (scenes viper wolves and banshee rockery) and Titanic (scene 6). initially using THX mode then my settings
I started with Avatar and the Panny 3D Glasses - I have been using the 3D3s lately and first impression putting the Pannys on was they are Horrible!
The are uncomfotable even though they are light - put the film on and my first impressions of the image was too dark, flat and blurry - to me its seemed hardly anymore 3D than the 2D image - now remember thats a dark scene and using THX Cinema is running the TV at full contrast.
Now worse than all that and its something that makes the Panny glasses ususeable in my eyes is the luminance changing / floating blacks type of effect that I get a lot the time- more promimnent in dark scenes. Its throw me off the film and its all I see so to me they are no good in this dark scene
Positives for the pannys, no cross talk
I Put the 3D3 glasses on - the image is far more 3D with proper depth and more definition -- its clearer and the glasses are far more comfortable and block out the surrounding light better
Negatives - there is a slight purple tinge to some blacks which I would love to Cal out.
Trying the 3D3 in Panasonic optimised mode - or mode 1 as its soon to be called - it was like looking through the Pannys glasses so blurry and flat but lighter but with no clairity so there is no benefit to be perceived from having a lighter image.
Trying both glasses on my settings - the 3D3 had a similar balance to the Panny Glasses on THX Mode but with all the benefits of them as glasses. The Panny Glasses on my settings (setup for the 3D3) didnt look very good at all.
I skipped onto the Banshee Rockery which is a lighter scene and changed back and fourth between the 2 glasses - it takes few seconds to get used to the pannys, because they are darker in the lenses and you know your wearing glasses, at times it feels like your wearing sunglasses.
I think the Pannys have more colour in the lighter scenes, on both settings mine and THX - but it does not always look right - sometimes it looks better sometimes worse than the 3D3 - I still prefer the 3D3 though even in the lighter secenes. So in a lighter scene the Pannys are ok but in a darker scene evcen in THX Mode which is 100% contrast and high brightness for sure I thought they crushed blacks.
Onto Titanic - some very good 3D even if it is a bit cardboard at times.
Started with the 3D3 and when Kate Winslett gets out of the car her hat proper pops out at you - there is a lot of clarity to the Image and its very 3d.
Watching the same scene in the Panny Glasses as its a very bright scene they do look more rich and colourful and there is good clairty as well. The Hat has a bit more colour but doesnt pop out at you anywhere near as much.
Conclusion
I dont like the Panny glasses at all, becuase they are uncomfortable to wear, you know / are conscience that your wearing them all the time and at times its like watching a film through sunglasses! Worse than that is the luminance changes and that puts the image out of focus at times and attracts the attention from the film - to me thats a big no and they are OUT.
But they have some strengths - the darker image does allow for good perceived rich colours in light scenes as good blacks do on a tv, and the image quality is very good and there is no or minimal cross talk.
The 3D3 are more comfortable, you dont know your wearing them as much as the Pannys and you never feel like your watching through sunglasses. You get pulled into the film and they are much easier on the eyes especially for long periods.
I found my settings made a big difference to how they look and they are scremaing out for a calibration.
Better than that there is a minimal amount of luminance changes to the image when wearing them - none in avatar a few in Titanic very minor.
After going back and fourth I did come to the conclusion that if they were slightly darker the colours may look richer then it dawned on me. Using them with the gamma set at 2.4 - which would allow for a very accurate 2.2 gamma calibration is the answer and I tried them with the gamma at 2.4.
Now without of the calibration of White Balance you lose too much detail but that is the way forward for sure I feel!
Another option I have just now thought of to try is using the Panel with Mid Lumiance as that might be possible with these glasses which will give a much better and more accurate image!
Running the set full contrast with the Pannys is bad in my book for the display as it gets bloody hot and thats when image retention starts.
The image is lighter in the 3D3's for sure and they take a bit of setting up but I think they have more promsie than the Pannys.
The ultimate would be no glasses so you want to try and replicate that as much as poss - so dark lenses does the opposite
This is just my opinions in a 30 minute specifically for Strapped. I think you should try and get a set with the new firmware to try before you get the set cal'd in anyway you have to. Its very imprtant and trust me changing the firmware makes a big difference.
You Cal can also be done at 2.4 gamma mate anf that will be the bomb for sure!!
Right my Report - testing was using Avatar (scenes viper wolves and banshee rockery) and Titanic (scene 6). initially using THX mode then my settings
I started with Avatar and the Panny 3D Glasses - I have been using the 3D3s lately and first impression putting the Pannys on was they are Horrible!
The are uncomfotable even though they are light - put the film on and my first impressions of the image was too dark, flat and blurry - to me its seemed hardly anymore 3D than the 2D image - now remember thats a dark scene and using THX Cinema is running the TV at full contrast.
Now worse than all that and its something that makes the Panny glasses ususeable in my eyes is the luminance changing / floating blacks type of effect that I get a lot the time- more promimnent in dark scenes. Its throw me off the film and its all I see so to me they are no good in this dark scene
Positives for the pannys, no cross talk
I Put the 3D3 glasses on - the image is far more 3D with proper depth and more definition -- its clearer and the glasses are far more comfortable and block out the surrounding light better
Negatives - there is a slight purple tinge to some blacks which I would love to Cal out.
Trying the 3D3 in Panasonic optimised mode - or mode 1 as its soon to be called - it was like looking through the Pannys glasses so blurry and flat but lighter but with no clairity so there is no benefit to be perceived from having a lighter image.
Trying both glasses on my settings - the 3D3 had a similar balance to the Panny Glasses on THX Mode but with all the benefits of them as glasses. The Panny Glasses on my settings (setup for the 3D3) didnt look very good at all.
I skipped onto the Banshee Rockery which is a lighter scene and changed back and fourth between the 2 glasses - it takes few seconds to get used to the pannys, because they are darker in the lenses and you know your wearing glasses, at times it feels like your wearing sunglasses.
I think the Pannys have more colour in the lighter scenes, on both settings mine and THX - but it does not always look right - sometimes it looks better sometimes worse than the 3D3 - I still prefer the 3D3 though even in the lighter secenes. So in a lighter scene the Pannys are ok but in a darker scene evcen in THX Mode which is 100% contrast and high brightness for sure I thought they crushed blacks.
Onto Titanic - some very good 3D even if it is a bit cardboard at times.
Started with the 3D3 and when Kate Winslett gets out of the car her hat proper pops out at you - there is a lot of clarity to the Image and its very 3d.
Watching the same scene in the Panny Glasses as its a very bright scene they do look more rich and colourful and there is good clairty as well. The Hat has a bit more colour but doesnt pop out at you anywhere near as much.
Conclusion
I dont like the Panny glasses at all, becuase they are uncomfortable to wear, you know / are conscience that your wearing them all the time and at times its like watching a film through sunglasses! Worse than that is the luminance changes and that puts the image out of focus at times and attracts the attention from the film - to me thats a big no and they are OUT.
But they have some strengths - the darker image does allow for good perceived rich colours in light scenes as good blacks do on a tv, and the image quality is very good and there is no or minimal cross talk.
The 3D3 are more comfortable, you dont know your wearing them as much as the Pannys and you never feel like your watching through sunglasses. You get pulled into the film and they are much easier on the eyes especially for long periods.
I found my settings made a big difference to how they look and they are scremaing out for a calibration.
Better than that there is a minimal amount of luminance changes to the image when wearing them - none in avatar a few in Titanic very minor.
After going back and fourth I did come to the conclusion that if they were slightly darker the colours may look richer then it dawned on me. Using them with the gamma set at 2.4 - which would allow for a very accurate 2.2 gamma calibration is the answer and I tried them with the gamma at 2.4.
Now without of the calibration of White Balance you lose too much detail but that is the way forward for sure I feel!
Another option I have just now thought of to try is using the Panel with Mid Lumiance as that might be possible with these glasses which will give a much better and more accurate image!
Running the set full contrast with the Pannys is bad in my book for the display as it gets bloody hot and thats when image retention starts.
The image is lighter in the 3D3's for sure and they take a bit of setting up but I think they have more promsie than the Pannys.
The ultimate would be no glasses so you want to try and replicate that as much as poss - so dark lenses does the opposite
This is just my opinions in a 30 minute specifically for Strapped. I think you should try and get a set with the new firmware to try before you get the set cal'd in anyway you have to. Its very imprtant and trust me changing the firmware makes a big difference.
You Cal can also be done at 2.4 gamma mate anf that will be the bomb for sure!!
Thanks v. much for the thorough feedback.
Can you avise on any difference in black level between the glasses? I could see no difference in detail between the glasses, or any difference in terms of crosstalk.
I tried a gamma 2.4 setting last night in a blacked out room and it didn't seem to have any influence on black level, unfortunately. I also tried adjusting panel luminance (all three settings, just to be sure) and this didn't bring about any improvement.
I'll have a chat with TPS tomorrow and try to figure out what, specifically, the new firmware does. I'll have chat with Jules, too, as he may have a view on what's the best way to go. I'll only be able to test the 3D3s before Wednesday if I buy another pair tomorrow. If TPS will let me return the glasses if I still prefer the Pannys, I can't really lose. I think that's the way forward...
Can you avise on any difference in black level between the glasses? I could see no difference in detail between the glasses, or any difference in terms of crosstalk.
I tried a gamma 2.4 setting last night in a blacked out room and it didn't seem to have any influence on black level, unfortunately. I also tried adjusting panel luminance (all three settings, just to be sure) and this didn't bring about any improvement.
I'll have a chat with TPS tomorrow and try to figure out what, specifically, the new firmware does. I'll have chat with Jules, too, as he may have a view on what's the best way to go. I'll only be able to test the 3D3s before Wednesday if I buy another pair tomorrow. If TPS will let me return the glasses if I still prefer the Pannys, I can't really lose. I think that's the way forward...
Hi Mate
I just watched Life of Pi - very enjoyable and good film - amazing special effects
I had a little tinker while it was on - the new firmware darkens the image down - but not too much. They must increase or decrease the shutter luminance with the firmware - not sure if thats the correct phrasing
With the Gamma on 2.4 you get a nice deep image, with better blacks but I lose detail / sharpness as its not calibrated,
On 2.2 Gamma is still very watchable and easier to see detail but its a better image on 2.4 as the blacks are better.
I am going to have to cal it now on 2.4 - it may just need a bit more brightness but a proper greyscale cal would make all the difference in the world you lucky swine.
You can probs even get away with Medium Luminance as well - I tried it and there is the possibility it would work - again that deepens and enriches the image but at the expense of clarity too much atm for me
I just watched Life of Pi - very enjoyable and good film - amazing special effects
I had a little tinker while it was on - the new firmware darkens the image down - but not too much. They must increase or decrease the shutter luminance with the firmware - not sure if thats the correct phrasing
With the Gamma on 2.4 you get a nice deep image, with better blacks but I lose detail / sharpness as its not calibrated,
On 2.2 Gamma is still very watchable and easier to see detail but its a better image on 2.4 as the blacks are better.
I am going to have to cal it now on 2.4 - it may just need a bit more brightness but a proper greyscale cal would make all the difference in the world you lucky swine.
You can probs even get away with Medium Luminance as well - I tried it and there is the possibility it would work - again that deepens and enriches the image but at the expense of clarity too much atm for me
Thanks mate.
I'll try to get the lowdown on what the new firmware actually does tomorrow.
I'm keen to see how much difference 3D calibration makes. It may even reduce the diorama effect on some 3D content. I'll let you know what I think after Wednesday.
You could try to calibrate 3D greyscale through the glasses, using some kind of makeshift attachment (getting the meter as close to the screen as possible). The worst that can happen is it looks awful, readings are all over the place, and you've lost an afternoon. In your shoes, I'd give it a go...
I'll try to get the lowdown on what the new firmware actually does tomorrow.
I'm keen to see how much difference 3D calibration makes. It may even reduce the diorama effect on some 3D content. I'll let you know what I think after Wednesday.
You could try to calibrate 3D greyscale through the glasses, using some kind of makeshift attachment (getting the meter as close to the screen as possible). The worst that can happen is it looks awful, readings are all over the place, and you've lost an afternoon. In your shoes, I'd give it a go...
ellisdj said:
Good question.
The double click "Samsung mode" helps, but I'm still not entirely convinced. Strangely, I could see more crosstalk in some scenes using the Panny glasses, and more crosstalk in other scenes using the 3D3s. (I've been watching in a batcave today, as I've blacked out all the windows in my living room.)
Crucially I still think the 3D3s allow too much light to pass through the lenses. As strange as that sounds, black still level looks greyer using the 3D3s, no matter how I set the TV up. If I set gamma to 2.6, panel luminance to low, and brightness to a level that crushes black detail, dark scenes and letterboxes still look a shade too grey. This isn't true with the Panasonic glasses, but the trade off is a duller image overall.
After a day's testing, I'm not sure I'm any the wiser. I may choose the 3D3s simply because I won't have to reorder batteries.
I'll see what Jules thinks tomorrow, as it'd be good to get hs opinion.
That is interesting - we have different tvs in size but you see things different to me even though its the same tv When i set to 2.4 gamma that darkens the image enough to counteract the high luminance effect on the pic It was my idea for you to buy tge 3d3 - if you choosr to use the pannys i will happilly swop you my panny glasses for your 3d3 if you want.. That way you will have more pairs without spending more money. Just an idea i have hardly touched them i put them straight in cases and they have stayed there
That is interesting - we have different tvs in size but you see things different to me even though its the same tv
When i set to 2.4 gamma that darkens the image enough to counteract the high luminance effect on the pic
It was my idea for you to buy tge 3d3 - if you choosr to use the pannys i will happilly swop you my panny glasses for your 3d3 if you want.. That way you will have more pairs without spending more money. Just an idea i have hardly touched them i put them straight in cases and they have stayed there
When i set to 2.4 gamma that darkens the image enough to counteract the high luminance effect on the pic
It was my idea for you to buy tge 3d3 - if you choosr to use the pannys i will happilly swop you my panny glasses for your 3d3 if you want.. That way you will have more pairs without spending more money. Just an idea i have hardly touched them i put them straight in cases and they have stayed there
ellisdj said:
If I decide to keep the Pannys then that makes a lot of sense. I'll let you know. I need to make a decision soon, as Jules will be here in a few minutes.
Kepp us posted of how the cal goes - I am especially inetersted to know if Jules uses Standard windows or if he uses APL windows.
I found APL windows was monstrously different to a normal window.
Also keep a cheeky eye on how he does your 3D cal....
I found APL windows was monstrously different to a normal window.
Also keep a cheeky eye on how he does your 3D cal....
Cal done; all looking very nice indeed!
Can you set your i1 to non-contact mode? If so, you can do a 3D calibration with the aid of a tripod and sellotape. I'm sure someone will invent a glasses mount or clip for future meters, but at the moment calibrators have to improvise.
Prepare for hell, though, especially if you're calibrating through the 3D3s. The VT65 tints 3D images toward blue, while the 3D3s have quite a heavy blue tint as well. The errors on the initial reading were enormous and the 3D calibration took longer than day and night calibrations combined. Low level readings fluctuate substantially and it took quite an effort to rein things in.
After watching Jules work, I concluded that I wouldn't attempt a 3D calibration without considerable experience, though I'd give 2D calibration a go with a meter and Calman. (Jules uses ChromaPure.)
As for APL vs. standard windows, I honestly can't say. I'm a numpty when it comes to computers and IT. (I can get a handle on anything I need to, but most of the time I'm not interested.) I spent the day with my eyes darting between watching Jules' laptop and the TV. If you can advise what I should have been looking for, I can hopefully answer that question.
I'd also highly recommend Jules to anyone interested in a professional calibration; his prices are competitive and the service and attention to detail fantastic.
Can you set your i1 to non-contact mode? If so, you can do a 3D calibration with the aid of a tripod and sellotape. I'm sure someone will invent a glasses mount or clip for future meters, but at the moment calibrators have to improvise.
Prepare for hell, though, especially if you're calibrating through the 3D3s. The VT65 tints 3D images toward blue, while the 3D3s have quite a heavy blue tint as well. The errors on the initial reading were enormous and the 3D calibration took longer than day and night calibrations combined. Low level readings fluctuate substantially and it took quite an effort to rein things in.
After watching Jules work, I concluded that I wouldn't attempt a 3D calibration without considerable experience, though I'd give 2D calibration a go with a meter and Calman. (Jules uses ChromaPure.)
As for APL vs. standard windows, I honestly can't say. I'm a numpty when it comes to computers and IT. (I can get a handle on anything I need to, but most of the time I'm not interested.) I spent the day with my eyes darting between watching Jules' laptop and the TV. If you can advise what I should have been looking for, I can hopefully answer that question.
I'd also highly recommend Jules to anyone interested in a professional calibration; his prices are competitive and the service and attention to detail fantastic.
Should have added, I'm sticking with the 3D3s. The panny glasses lost connection a few times last night and the battery life isn't at all impressive.
I can't be bothered to buy new batteries all the time. Though 3D will make up a small minority of my viewing, I haven't used the Panny glasses much and the battery on the pair I used is almost dead. Perhaps it was a dodgy battery, but I had to make a decision. The Panny glasses will go on ebay.
3D calibration really does make a big difference, simply because greyscale and colour are so wildly inaccurate out of the box.
I can't be bothered to buy new batteries all the time. Though 3D will make up a small minority of my viewing, I haven't used the Panny glasses much and the battery on the pair I used is almost dead. Perhaps it was a dodgy battery, but I had to make a decision. The Panny glasses will go on ebay.
3D calibration really does make a big difference, simply because greyscale and colour are so wildly inaccurate out of the box.
strapped for cash said:
Sounds like you are happy mate - nice one! How much does it roughly cost then? What are the main differences you have noticed? Cheers.
gel said:
Cheers Gel.
The calibration cost £205 (+ petrol costs if he has to travel a fair distance), which is very reasonable. Jules is incredibly thorough at very competitive prices. He lives in Leicester. I think he's pretty local to you, so he might not charge you for petrol. I paid £205 flat.
If you're considering other upgrades, honestly, get your TV calibrated first. The difference is substantial. You don't realise how far out your colours are until you see the charts. The difference after calibration is immediately apparent by eye. Detail and depth are also markedly improved. If I flick back to any other (uncalibrated) preset, it looks horrible now. Blacks are deeper, too, once Gamma is properly set up. (Gamma is wide of the mark on Panny plasmas out of the box.) Shadow detail improves quite a bit as well. I'm delighted with the results.
The difference after 3D calibration is even more pronounced, because greyscale, colour, and gamma are so far out to begin with.
strapped for cash said:
Ah nice one, cheers. Jules is a Norwich fan I believe too.
gel said:Ah nice one, cheers. Jules is a Norwich fan I believe too.Yep, the calibrated pictures I have seen are nice, which got me wondering!
You might get a special Canary fan discount then!
After years wondering whether to get my TV calibrated, I'm now wondering why I didn't do it sooner. All that money spent on kit in the hope of small improvement seems silly now. Calibration is the best value "upgrade" I've made, by quite some margin.
Hi Strapped, sounds like you've had a result here, glad its made such a positive difference. How long had you been running your set for before you had it calibrated? This is definitely something I want to do, and am inpatient to do it, but don't want to get inferior results from not running in properly first.
strapped for cash said:
I had to laugh reading this, all the technology in the world and we still need to use Sellotape. Absolutely priceless :rofl:
glad your enjoying your new tv strapped after the issues you had with your last one, and glad the calibration has again received positive feedback. Will have to get that sorted once I've got the tv issue done and dusted.
mr malarky said:
Thanks mate.
I'd clocked up about 600 hours, which is arguably excessive, but I'd heard reports of Panasonics drifting quite a bit in the early days. (I thought better safe than sorry.)
rocketrazor said:
Yeah, it was strange watching the makeshift 3D calibration solution, but there's really no other way until someone designs a meter with an appropriate fitting, or a detachable clip to hold the glasses in place.
Once you have a TV that's a keeper, I'd argue that calibration is the best way to next spend your money. The VT65 is a fantastic TV. Any issues are very minor indeed. I'm unreasonably fussy. If I'm happy, I'm guessing most people will struggle to complain.
Hope you get sorted soon. Remind me where you're at. (There have been so many GT50 horror stories on here that I've struggled to keep track.)
Hi Strapped
Glad your happy with the cal - not surprised at all mate
I hate to say I told you so on all accounts - I bet the cal has ironed out a few of the issues you were seeing as I said. I can tell my cals drifted because of what errors I am seeing now.
I have harped on and on about getting a TV calibrated and the difference that it makes, I have particularly had this out with Big Boss so its good to have another person contribute. How can anyone own a top end plasma and not have it calibrated - £2k + on a TV and won't spend a £couple hundred on actually seeing it properly is crazy!!
I expect jules cal'd using the normal temperature preset - that pushes blue. That's what I used for 2D as its the closest to 6500k as a starting point.
all other reports of cals have been done using warm - that pushes red. I thought the 3d3 image was blue hence why I put the set on warm - if you increase red you auto decrease blue - man my eye is more trained than I thought happy days.
The difference between standard patterns and APL patterns - standard just has a single box - greyscale is 0%-100% in 10% increments and colour is just the different 6 colours + white x2
APL is that same box but with other boxes on the screen to try and represent real world content.
What patterns did he use?
i also knew you would be keeping the 3D3 - they allow for a much better experience and are more calibrateable
you can thank me on that one later. What settings did he use for the 3d cal - what luminance and what gamma / what gamma target did he cal to 2.2? 2.4?
what contrast did you tell him you wanted the 2d cal set to?
what gamma did he do your 2d to? If he did night and day which I think is silly what gamma is each?
Glad your happy with the cal - not surprised at all mate
I hate to say I told you so on all accounts
- I bet the cal has ironed out a few of the issues you were seeing as I said. I can tell my cals drifted because of what errors I am seeing now.I have harped on and on about getting a TV calibrated and the difference that it makes, I have particularly had this out with Big Boss so its good to have another person contribute. How can anyone own a top end plasma and not have it calibrated - £2k + on a TV and won't spend a £couple hundred on actually seeing it properly is crazy!!
I expect jules cal'd using the normal temperature preset - that pushes blue. That's what I used for 2D as its the closest to 6500k as a starting point.
all other reports of cals have been done using warm - that pushes red. I thought the 3d3 image was blue hence why I put the set on warm - if you increase red you auto decrease blue - man my eye is more trained than I thought happy days.
The difference between standard patterns and APL patterns - standard just has a single box - greyscale is 0%-100% in 10% increments and colour is just the different 6 colours + white x2
APL is that same box but with other boxes on the screen to try and represent real world content.
What patterns did he use?
i also knew you would be keeping the 3D3 - they allow for a much better experience and are more calibrateable
you can thank me on that one later. What settings did he use for the 3d cal - what luminance and what gamma / what gamma target did he cal to 2.2? 2.4?
what contrast did you tell him you wanted the 2d cal set to?
what gamma did he do your 2d to? If he did night and day which I think is silly what gamma is each?
strapped for cash said:
Thanks, I've also read that the colours on the panny can drift initially, hence why I've been hanging on, but am getting impatient as am trying not to watch any blurays until it's done - not sure I can wait 600 hours, you must have the patience of a saint!!
ellisdj said:
Cheers EllisDJ,
Jules used Warm to calibrate using the 3D3s. 3D calibration might have been impossible selecting Normal mode. The overall blue push was very extreme, even selecting warm. I'm guessing it'd be easier to calibrate through the Panasonic glasses, which of course have a warmer tint.
Jules used standard windows and calibrated to 2.4 (2D night); 2.2 (2D day); and 2.2 (3D). However, he selected 2.6, 2.4, and 2.4 to do this, as gamma tracked closer to the target that way.
As for 3D3 vs. Panasonic, the jury's still out. I still believe there are advantages and drawbacks to using each. The way I saw it, the 3D3s won on convenience rather than performance; and I'd argue that calibration through the 3D3s is more difficult. When Jules took the first reading, the errors were massive; and I mean MASSIVE.
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