Panasonic ZT60 (now ZT65)

[Deleted member 2457]

To Gel

Light output or luminance is controlled via the contrast not the brightness - if you lower the brightness because you think the image is too bright then you are actually reducing the black level and most likely crushing the blacks.

I did mention this to you before - I am sure it was you who posted images and videos of your TV and I said the blacks look crushed to me.

The GT50 has a max luminance of 90 cd/m22 and the LX5090 has a max luminance of 136cd/m/2 so I honestly cant see it being brighter image as its nearly half the output again

However its the gamma that sets the overall brightness of the image across the grey scale spectrum and if thats off then the image may appear brighter when actually its not. A Gamma of 2.2 is often recommended for a room with some light, however if you run the gamma at 2.0 the image will be brighter but also washed out by comparison. Its not a case of changing the brighness to adjust the overall light output.

I feel you may have never seen the best from your LX5090 so your Panny appears better because of that - closer to calibrated out of the box on THX Cinema than the Kuros were - they need calibrating (few minor adjustments)

Its also not about being a fan boy - its about is it worth buying - is it going to be that much better. I dont see why Panasonic would mess the settings up to do a side by side test at a show - that just seems silly to me. However I do know that the LX or KRA needs to be calibrated otherwise it doesnt look anything like its best - out of the box is good, but not great. And you can get a very good calibration out of it - fantastic grey scale, near flat gamma at 2.2 with a perfect luminance that tracks the output curve - but not with colour -3, not on my set

In terms of knowing from a demo - i think I could pretty much tell with a 1 hours demo and a few blu ray films whether its better and worth the £4k investment, it wouldnt need to be side by side - but I mentioned it as it would be very interesting to do and review / report back on. I think it would be a very big seller in terms of mags

That is fair enough and what I did.

 

[bigboss]

There's no way you can arrange a side by side demo in the shops with a Kuro, hence the reason for Panasonic to show this. Obviously Kuro customers will want to know the settings. If Panasonic manipulates results a thousand miles away to magnify the difference, they will be scrutinized. If I buy the ZT60, I will expect the advertised difference which won't be there.

I know what the reason is, and like I said how stupid are they?

My advice for the Pioneer owners who want to know the settings is get a life!

.....and this is coming from someone who posts youtube videos of his TV.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

There's no way you can arrange a side by side demo in the shops with a Kuro, hence the reason for Panasonic to show this. Obviously Kuro customers will want to know the settings. If Panasonic manipulates results a thousand miles away to magnify the difference, they will be scrutinized. If I buy the ZT60, I will expect the advertised difference which won't be there.

I know what the reason is, and like I said how stupid are they?

My advice for the Pioneer owners who want to know the settings is get a life!

.....and this is coming from someone who posts youtube videos of his TV.

Just showing off.

 

[bigboss]

I will attempt to recreate the settings Panasonic used to see just how different it is to my usual settings. Will post the pics later.

 

[ellisdj]

Try with colour +3 - forget what you think +3 colour most probably gives you the flattest gamma, however the red maybe a bit strong as its hot out of the box, just bear that in mind when you look at it

 

[bigboss]

Ok, here are the results (quite shocking really):

Original settings:

Panasonic's settings

Picture after colour +3 (Thanks ellisdj, will keep these settings):

I have nothing more to say

 

[bigboss]

Goes on to show how important it is to check the settings when demoing a TV. The differences can be dramatic. There's no doubt the ZT60 will be the best TV on sale, but they didn't have to resort to these gimmicks.

 

[strapped for cash]

Looking at Panasonic's comparison shots, it'd be interesting to know how white balance is set up on the Kuro.

I've never owned a Kuro, but I've seen a few in action and I don't think they have a problem reproducing reds. Panasonic presumably carefully selected pictures to foreground the development of its new red phosphor.

As a non-Kuro owner I'm not a Pioneer fanboy; nor would I describe myself as a Panasonic fanboy. I'm simply a videophile of modest means that wants a TV without distracting flaws. I say all this as I'm trying to remain objective.

For non-Kuro owners that want functionality such as 3D and smart features (let's ignore the whole light pen thing, shall we), the ZT60 will likely be the best television available; though let's wait for reviews and user reports before making such a statement. If you're a Kuro owner considering upgrading, you should probably wait to confirm that issues with previous Panasonic plasma televisions have been ironed out. I certainly wouldn't jump in without knowing the ZT60 is free of serious issues,* however deep its blacks and brilliant its reds.

*Actually, I wouldn't jump in at all, as I can't afford to, but hypothetically speaking...

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Ok, here are the results (quite shocking really):

Original settings:

Panasonic's settings

Picture after colour +3 (Thanks ellisdj, will keep these settings):

I have nothing more to say

That proves nothing!

If you want to know how good it is or the settings, go and flipping demo it, and if you need them side by side you are a idiot!

 

[buzz_lightclick]

Would this new ZT60 be a level above or below the £6000 65VX300 Panasonic?

I remember the Panasonic Z1 was the top of the line model a few years ago, distinct from the rest of the range, and there was a member on here who had a long running dispute that What Hifi got involved with over a warranty claim!

 

[bigboss]

That proves nothing!

If you want to know how good it is or the settings, go and flipping demo it, and if you need them side by side you are a idiot!

I'm sorry Gel, but personal attacks are uncalled for, & you're the last person I expected from. I am disappointed by your response.

I don't really care what your views are. I've just proved how vastly different a picture can look by just playing with the settings.

Just to turn things around; Panasonic's side by side demo with the Kuro really proves nothing.

 

[bigboss]

No one has really disputed that Kuro's performance was exceeded 2 years ago, so I don't know where your "Pioneer fanboy" comment came from. If I am shown 2 TVs with vastly different pictures, I will question the settings, would I not? If I only accepted out of the box settings, to be honest, I wouldn't have been a member of a Hi Fi & home cinema forum!

 

[ellisdj]

Hi BB - your welcome for starters - get the panel calibrated - or DIY it, its really not that hard mate and changes things drastically - its al;so super rewarding to do it yourself and costs about £100 for a metre and £20 for a test disc with the needed patterns on.

You can download one with the high def patterns on for free but I cant remember where it came from

I dont think Gel was having a dig, he is right about needing to demo but your images do show - if you look at the colours - they actually change with Colour -3 - they are different

But look at the depth to the image with colour +3 - thats what having a flat gamme curve gives you - correct colour levels across your scales of gray !!

 

[bigboss]

Hi BB - your welcome for starters - get the panel calibrated - or DIY it, its really not that hard mate and changes things drastically - its al;so super rewarding to do it yourself and costs about £100 for a metre and £20 for a test disc with the needed patterns on.

You can download one with the high def patterns on for free but I cant remember where it came from

I dont think Gel was having a dig, he is right about needing to demo but your images do show - if you look at the colours - they actually change with Colour -3 - they are different

But look at the depth to the image with colour +3 - thats what having a flat gamme curve gives you - correct colour levels across your scales of gray !!

I've kept the sharpness at 0. If you notice, the last picture with colour +3 has lost some detailing in bottom left of the screen at sharpness -15. I think sharpness of 0 is sharpness "off", & -15 actually softens & alters the picture.

I've used the THX optimiser & am happy with the results. In any case, I'm looking to go the projector route when I change my house next year.

 

[bigboss]

There is too much technology involved in making a TV, and year on year, we have seen problems associated with panel technology. A projector avoids that, although will have a few problems of its own.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Hi BB - your welcome for starters - get the panel calibrated - or DIY it, its really not that hard mate and changes things drastically - its al;so super rewarding to do it yourself and costs about £100 for a metre and £20 for a test disc with the needed patterns on.

You can download one with the high def patterns on for free but I cant remember where it came from

I dont think Gel was having a dig, he is right about needing to demo but your images do show - if you look at the colours - they actually change with Colour -3 - they are different

But look at the depth to the image with colour +3 - thats what having a flat gamme curve gives you - correct colour levels across your scales of gray !!

No I was not having a dig but you are always right as normal BB! Whatever.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

That proves nothing!

If you want to know how good it is or the settings, go and flipping demo it, and if you need them side by side you are a idiot!

I'm sorry Gel, but personal attacks are uncalled for, & you're the last person I expected from. I am disappointed by your response.

I don't really care what your views are. I've just proved how vastly different a picture can look by just playing with the settings.

Just to turn things around; Panasonic's side by side demo with the Kuro really proves nothing.

I was not having a dig, and I could not careless if you are don't care about my views anyway. You are always right, everybody else always wrong! I won' t express my view to you any more! Like you said you could not care less anyway, sums you up!

 

[bigboss]

I was not having a dig, and I could not careless if you are don't care about my views anyway. You are always right, everybody else always wrong! I won' t express my view to you any more! Like you said you could not care less anyway, sums you up!

Examples of your accusation? I've never tried to prove anyone wrong. I merely express what I think. You do tend to react adversely at anyone speaking against a Panasonic TV or a Pioneer blu ray player. I never challenged the fact that Kuro was surpassed by Panasonic 2 years ago. Heck, I even started a thread on it!

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/tvs-and-projectors/panasonic-th-65vx300-convincing-kuro-beater-finally

A gimmick is a gimmick, & Panasonic didn't have to resort to them (which even you said a couple of pages back). Panasonic's idea of showing a side by side comparison was very smart considering the market it's targeting. But it's this very market of videophiles who will want to know the settings. I merely reproduced Panasonic's settings & showed how much the picture can be altered. This is where Panasonic messed things up. Either show out of the box settings or calibrate the TV properly. Is this unreasonable? Without doubt, the ZT60 will be superior to the Kuro, & possibly the best TV made to date, but the differences are not as large as Panasonic wants us to believe.

I have no idea why you're reacting the way you did to this.

 

[bigboss]

Looking at Panasonic's comparison shots, it'd be interesting to know how white balance is set up on the Kuro.

I've never owned a Kuro, but I've seen a few in action and I don't think they have a problem reproducing reds. Panasonic presumably carefully selected pictures to foreground the development of its new red phosphor.

As a non-Kuro owner I'm not a Pioneer fanboy; nor would I describe myself as a Panasonic fanboy. I'm simply a videophile of modest means that wants a TV without distracting flaws. I say all this as I'm trying to remain objective.

For non-Kuro owners that want functionality such as 3D and smart features (let's ignore the whole light pen thing, shall we), the ZT60 will likely be the best television available; though let's wait for reviews and user reports before making such a statement. If you're a Kuro owner considering upgrading, you should probably wait to confirm that issues with previous Panasonic plasma televisions have been ironed out. I certainly wouldn't jump in without knowing the ZT60 is free of serious issues,* however deep its blacks and brilliant its reds.

*Actually, I wouldn't jump in at all, as I can't afford to, but hypothetically speaking...

Agreed. I'm sure the price will come down to around £3000 ( although there's this caveat of "limited edition").

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I was not having a dig, and I could not careless if you are don't care about my views anyway. You are always right, everybody else always wrong! I won' t express my view to you any more! Like you said you could not care less anyway, sums you up!

Examples of your accusation? I've never tried to prove anyone wrong. I merely express what I think. You do tend to react adversely at anyone speaking against a Panasonic TV or a Pioneer blu ray player. I never challenged the fact that Kuro was surpassed by Panasonic 2 years ago. Heck, I even started a thread on it!

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/tvs-and-projectors/panasonic-th-65vx300-convincing-kuro-beater-finally A gimmick is a gimmick, & Panasonic didn't have to resort to them (which even you said a couple of pages back). Panasonic's idea of showing a side by side comparison was very smart considering the market it's targeting. But it's this very market of videophiles who will want to know the settings. I merely reproduced Panasonic's settings & showed how much the picture can be altered. This is where Panasonic messed things up. Either show out of the box settings or calibrate the TV properly. Is this unreasonable? Without doubt, the ZT60 will be superior to the Kuro, & possibly the best TV made to date, but the differences are not as large as Panasonic wants us to believe. I have no idea why you're reacting the way you did to this.

Let's get a few things straight, you think Panasonic is the best and always have on here for about the last 3 years and yet you have never even owned one! You think Oppo is the best and yet same again!

Why you keep insulting me now I have no idea!

If you don't want to hear what I have to say stop talking to me, it is not that hard!

 

[BenLaw]

Ok, here are the results (quite shocking really):

Original settings:

Panasonic's settings

Picture after colour +3 (Thanks ellisdj, will keep these settings):

I have nothing more to say

These are panasonic's setting for the kuro? I'm not sure it's as clear cut that they're being naughty as is suggested, and may be a lesson in personal taste. The middle pic is more washed out but look at the contrast between the purple tuby things and the pink flowery things in the bottom left. The colours themselves have changed a lot in the bottom pic but there is less contrast, which doesn't look right. The top looks most unnatural.

Then the plants in the bottom centre - they look very samey in both the top and bottom pics. They also all look very purple. Whereas the middle pic reveals a lot of variation, pinks (!), turquoise, light blue, dark blue. Can you show us a pic with same setting but colour in the middle at 0?

The pics on the WHF blog also seemed to show some advantages to me with the kuro. The reds seemed weird (too weird) but the top left strawberry had a lot more detail in it and the detail in the blacks of the car seemed a lot more.

As you say, it shows settings are very important and much of it may be subjective. I'd trust a detailed review with measurements such as on avforums to see which can get objectively closest to the 'best' picture, ie most faithful to the source material. But I'm guessing both will be stunningly good and the main reason for spending £4k if you have a ninth gen kuro will be as a periodic update or for features rather than a quantum leap in performance. I also agree PJ will be the best move for many at this price.

 

[bigboss]

Let's get a few things straight, you think Panasonic is the best and always have on here for about the last 3 years and yet you have never even owned one! You think Oppo is the best and yet same again!

Why you keep insulting me now I have no idea!

If you don't want to hear what I have to say stop talking to me, it is not that hard!

1) Although I haven't owned a Panasonic TV on an Oppo player, I have demoed them.

2) When did I say Oppo is the best? I said the Oppo should've got 4 stars for the amount of features it has. You already know my view that all blu ray players perform the same when it comes to blu ray picture performance. And I'm certainly not blindly partial to the Oppo. Check my comment on this thread:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/blu-ray-players/cambridge-audio-752bd-now-on-richer-sounds-site

3) Where have I insulted you? If you felt that way I apologise.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Let's get a few things straight, you think Panasonic is the best and always have on here for about the last 3 years and yet you have never even owned one! You think Oppo is the best and yet same again!

Why you keep insulting me now I have no idea!

If you don't want to hear what I have to say stop talking to me, it is not that hard!

1) Although I haven't owned a Panasonic TV on an Oppo player, I have demoed them.

2) When did I say Oppo is the best? I said the Oppo should've got 4 stars for the amount of features it has. You already know my view that all blu ray players perform the same when it comes to blu ray picture performance. And I'm certainly not blindly partial to the Oppo. Check my comment on this thread:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/blu-ray-players/cambridge-audio-752bd-now-on-richer-sounds-site 3) Where have I insulted you? If you felt that way I apologise.

You said I had a dig at you - did not. You said you could not care less about my views!

As things go I really really like you, and if I have done something to upset you I apologise too.

 

[bigboss]

These are panasonic's setting for the kuro? I'm not sure it's as clear cut that they're being naughty as is suggested, and may be a lesson in personal taste. The middle pic is more washed out but look at the contrast between the purple tuby things and the pink flowery things in the bottom left. The colours themselves have changed a lot in the bottom pic but there is less contrast, which doesn't look right. The top looks most unnatural.

Then the plants in the bottom centre - they look very samey in both the top and bottom pics. They also all look very purple. Whereas the middle pic reveals a lot of variation, pinks (!), turquoise, light blue, dark blue. Can you show us a pic with same setting but colour in the middle at 0?

The pics on the WHF blog also seemed to show some advantages to me with the kuro. The reds seemed weird (too weird) but the top left strawberry had a lot more detail in it and the detail in the blacks of the car seemed a lot more.

As you say, it shows settings are very important and much of it may be subjective. I'd trust a detailed review with measurements such as on avforums to see which can get objectively closest to the 'best' picture, ie most faithful to the source material. But I'm guessing both will be stunningly good and the main reason for spending £4k if you have a ninth gen kuro will be as a periodic update or for features rather than a quantum leap in performance. I also agree PJ will be the best move for many at this price.

Yes, they are Panasonic settings for the Kuro. I thought the middle pic colours look unnatural and washed out. I'll click some more pics in the next couple of days with Panasonic's settings & colour at 0. It is difficult to,say what's natural & what's unnatural with an animated image!

We all have different taste, I thought there was more detail on the 1st pic, especially the blue flowers on bottom left, and I preferred the last pic but with more sharpness.

 

[bigboss]

You said I had a dig at you - did not. You said you could not care less about my views!

As things go I really really like you, and if I have done something to upset you I apologise too.

I thought you called me an idiot. :?

Anyway, bygones are bygones.