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CES Hands On - Samsung HW-Q990F review
bigboss
Moderator
gel said:It seems a bit redundant to still be comparing against the Kuro!
Actually, it's not. Panasonic is being very smart here. ZT60 is an expensive TV, and only true videophiles will be interested in it. Which TV do a lot of the videophiles currently have? The Kuro. They will be looking to upgrade their Kuro after owning it for 4-5 years, which is about time now. Panasonic wants that market.
bigboss said:gel said:It seems a bit redundant to still be comparing against the Kuro!
Actually, it's not. Panasonic is being very smart here. ZT60 is an expensive TV, and only true videophiles will be interested in it. Which TV do a lot of the videophiles currently have? The Kuro. They will be looking to upgrade their Kuro after owning it for 4-5 years, which is about time now. Panasonic wants that market.
That is true.
Have added some pictures to the GT60 and ZT60 stories, including some vs. the Pioneer Kuro (highly unscientific). Apologies for poor quality... http://whf.cm/11BNFpm
Panasonic needs to get the ZT60 right. For a 4K TV (that's pounds, not resolution), videophiles won't stand for problems that have plagued previous Panasonic plasma televisions. At that price, many videophiles will likely wait and see what appears on forum threads rather than trusting reviews, which have often failed to flag up issues owners have experienced.
For the ZT60 to justify its price, Panasonic needs to have eliminated the 50Hz bug, overcome all screen uniformity issues, minimised inherent plasma problems like dynamic false conturing, while offering the best picture quality in the most adjustable picture mode. The ZT60 will also need to trounce the Kuro's black level and deliver very accurate images out of the box (no obvious green tint, even if that is corrected as the panel ages). Oh, and autocal would be nice, too.
I'm watching with interest.
For the ZT60 to justify its price, Panasonic needs to have eliminated the 50Hz bug, overcome all screen uniformity issues, minimised inherent plasma problems like dynamic false conturing, while offering the best picture quality in the most adjustable picture mode. The ZT60 will also need to trounce the Kuro's black level and deliver very accurate images out of the box (no obvious green tint, even if that is corrected as the panel ages). Oh, and autocal would be nice, too.
I'm watching with interest.
Joe Cox said:
Definitely looks brighter to me. That is one thing I love about my GT50 is that it is brighter than my Pioneer 5090.
It looked good. You never know how they're set-up but in terms of black levels and colour reproduction the ZT60 looked very strong.
This clip is okay, sounds like there is more to come though
https://mobile.twitter.com/PanasonicNorth/status/301025356197003264
https://mobile.twitter.com/PanasonicNorth/status/301025356197003264
On the news page you guys are reporting the Panasonic VT60 is available from 55 inches and above, but on AVForums they are saying 50 inches and above on a YouTube clip, which one is right? :?
Think you guys might have to correct your front page!
http://fullhd.gr/item/15202-panasonic-plasma-vt60-vt50-prices.html
http://fullhd.gr/item/15202-panasonic-plasma-vt60-vt50-prices.html
If you read a few of the posts under the HD TV site news on the ZT they feel the 600a display didn't look right and its commented that it also was showing red tints in the black I.e a TV not performing optimally at all. Therefore not a fair test really but the photos are interesting.
The ZT should be much better but is it going to be £4k better only the buyer knows that answer - £3k would have got me very interested £4k seems very steep.
Panasonic are being a bit crafty by making the ZT limited edition to try and get people to buy it straight away @ it's top dollar price - fair play to them however we all know within 3-6 months all new av tech price plummets as competition gets stiffer. Will be interesting to see what happens to the price / sales over the year and how easy it is to go and demo.
To Gel reading reviews on the new Panny plasmas over the years against the Kuro 5090 I am sure the luminance of all the pannys is nowhere near that of the Kuro so I wonder how you have yours setup - I.e what contrast you are running so that the 5090 is not as bright? Luminance / brightness is one of the main criticism of the vt50 I am sure that's what I read
just looked at the pocket lint images - that looks like the difference between calibrated on the right , non calibrated on the left with the brightness up too much - similar to what others have posted lol
The ZT should be much better but is it going to be £4k better only the buyer knows that answer - £3k would have got me very interested £4k seems very steep.
Panasonic are being a bit crafty by making the ZT limited edition to try and get people to buy it straight away @ it's top dollar price - fair play to them however we all know within 3-6 months all new av tech price plummets as competition gets stiffer. Will be interesting to see what happens to the price / sales over the year and how easy it is to go and demo.
To Gel reading reviews on the new Panny plasmas over the years against the Kuro 5090 I am sure the luminance of all the pannys is nowhere near that of the Kuro so I wonder how you have yours setup - I.e what contrast you are running so that the 5090 is not as bright? Luminance / brightness is one of the main criticism of the vt50 I am sure that's what I read
just looked at the pocket lint images - that looks like the difference between calibrated on the right , non calibrated on the left with the brightness up too much - similar to what others have posted lol
These are apparent,y settings used
https://mobile.twitter.com/HDTVTest/status/301336029502242817/photo/1
colour -3 why oh why would they do that ??
https://mobile.twitter.com/HDTVTest/status/301336029502242817/photo/1
colour -3 why oh why would they do that ??
bigboss
Moderator
bigboss
Moderator
Sharpness -15 or off is correct BB try it !! Movement is much better and sharpness not needed
contrast 35 is about right as well as is brightness on 0 but reducing the colour likely throws the gamma way off.
my 5090 needs colour +3 to get a flat gamma which is exactly the same as the set in the HD TV test about 18months before I got my one. So I guess they are all the same. So -3 you can imagine
Both calibrated it would be interesting to see side by side - never gonna get that luxury though ..... Unless WHF wanna do it - I am happy to come in and help if you want
contrast 35 is about right as well as is brightness on 0 but reducing the colour likely throws the gamma way off.
my 5090 needs colour +3 to get a flat gamma which is exactly the same as the set in the HD TV test about 18months before I got my one. So I guess they are all the same. So -3 you can imagine
Both calibrated it would be interesting to see side by side - never gonna get that luxury though ..... Unless WHF wanna do it - I am happy to come in and help if you want
bigboss
Moderator
ellisdj said:
That is true past Panasonic TVs were not bright and I personally had a go at them over this, but this year they have more than corrected this. I hear what you are saying about the brightness on the VT50 and this is one of the reasons I bought the GT50, I can only say nothing wrong with the brightness on the GT50, most people turn it down!
just looked at the pocket lint images - that looks like the difference between calibrated on the right , non calibrated on the left with the brightness up too much - similar to what others have posted lol
[/quote]
What the Pioneer fanboys are saying.
Like I said I think it is redundant to be comparing the two because anyone in the know, would know it is better.
[/quote]
What the Pioneer fanboys are saying.
bigboss
Moderator
gel said:
What the Pioneer fanboys are saying.
[/quote]
But that's not the point at all. No one can buy a Kuro now. The "Pioneer fanboys" you're describing are in fact Panasonic's customers today.
bigboss said:gel said:
What the Pioneer fanboys are saying.Like I said I think it is redundant to be comparing the two because anyone in the know, would know it is better.
But that's not the point at all. No one can buy a Kuro now. The "Pioneer fanboys" you're describing are in fact Panasonic's customers today.[/quote]
You don't think anyone with a Pioneer TV for three years would not be able to tell the difference without them being side by side? They are going to have to be pretty flipping stupid!
bigboss
Moderator
There's no way you can arrange a side by side demo in the shops with a Kuro, hence the reason for Panasonic to show this. Obviously Kuro customers will want to know the settings. If Panasonic manipulates results a thousand miles away to magnify the difference, they will be scrutinized. If I buy the ZT60, I will expect the advertised difference which won't be there.
To Gel
Light output or luminance is controlled via the contrast not the brightness - if you lower the brightness because you think the image is too bright then you are actually reducing the black level and most likely crushing the blacks.
I did mention this to you before - I am sure it was you who posted images and videos of your TV and I said the blacks look crushed to me.
The GT50 has a max luminance of 90 cd/m22 and the LX5090 has a max luminance of 136cd/m/2 so I honestly cant see it being brighter image as its nearly half the output again
However its the gamma that sets the overall brightness of the image across the grey scale spectrum and if thats off then the image may appear brighter when actually its not. A Gamma of 2.2 is often recommended for a room with some light, however if you run the gamma at 2.0 the image will be brighter but also washed out by comparison. Its not a case of changing the brighness to adjust the overall light output.
I feel you may have never seen the best from your LX5090 so your Panny appears better because of that - closer to calibrated out of the box on THX Cinema than the Kuros were - they need calibrating (few minor adjustments)
Its also not about being a fan boy - its about is it worth buying - is it going to be that much better. I dont see why Panasonic would mess the settings up to do a side by side test at a show - that just seems silly to me. However I do know that the LX or KRA needs to be calibrated otherwise it doesnt look anything like its best - out of the box is good, but not great. And you can get a very good calibration out of it - fantastic grey scale, near flat gamma at 2.2 with a perfect luminance that tracks the output curve - but not with colour -3, not on my set
In terms of knowing from a demo - i think I could pretty much tell with a 1 hours demo and a few blu ray films whether its better and worth the £4k investment, it wouldnt need to be side by side - but I mentioned it as it would be very interesting to do and review / report back on. I think it would be a very big seller in terms of mags
Light output or luminance is controlled via the contrast not the brightness - if you lower the brightness because you think the image is too bright then you are actually reducing the black level and most likely crushing the blacks.
I did mention this to you before - I am sure it was you who posted images and videos of your TV and I said the blacks look crushed to me.
The GT50 has a max luminance of 90 cd/m22 and the LX5090 has a max luminance of 136cd/m/2 so I honestly cant see it being brighter image as its nearly half the output again
However its the gamma that sets the overall brightness of the image across the grey scale spectrum and if thats off then the image may appear brighter when actually its not. A Gamma of 2.2 is often recommended for a room with some light, however if you run the gamma at 2.0 the image will be brighter but also washed out by comparison. Its not a case of changing the brighness to adjust the overall light output.
I feel you may have never seen the best from your LX5090 so your Panny appears better because of that - closer to calibrated out of the box on THX Cinema than the Kuros were - they need calibrating (few minor adjustments)
Its also not about being a fan boy - its about is it worth buying - is it going to be that much better. I dont see why Panasonic would mess the settings up to do a side by side test at a show - that just seems silly to me. However I do know that the LX or KRA needs to be calibrated otherwise it doesnt look anything like its best - out of the box is good, but not great. And you can get a very good calibration out of it - fantastic grey scale, near flat gamma at 2.2 with a perfect luminance that tracks the output curve - but not with colour -3, not on my set
In terms of knowing from a demo - i think I could pretty much tell with a 1 hours demo and a few blu ray films whether its better and worth the £4k investment, it wouldnt need to be side by side - but I mentioned it as it would be very interesting to do and review / report back on. I think it would be a very big seller in terms of mags
bigboss said:
I know what the reason is, and like I said how stupid are they?
My advice for the Pioneer owners who want to know the settings is get a life!
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