What do you think of Class D amplifiers?

[DocG]

Excellent write-up, JMac!

Maybe the Tact Millenium should be nominated in Cno's list of game changing stuff, even more than their RoomPerfect module! Firmly backed up by this fine explanation of yours!

:cheers: Happy New Year!

 

[nevalti]

As I am a total Valve addict I couldn't help mysself to listento some class D amps too And the one that really seems to satisfy me was pre/power combi of Bel Canto. Until now no others have convinced me to purchase a class D amp. I am curious what your experiences are!

This is a fairly old thread but I thought it was worth updating because things have moved on.

Firstly, I agree that Bel Canto can sound excellent in the right set up.

HISTORY 1: Having tried many amps over the years I settled on valve amps as they sound significantly better that every Class B or AB or D anp I heard. I settled into a period of beutiful music, unforced natural detail, voices that sounded real etc BUT I had to buy new valves periodically, I had to re-bias the amps, I had to put up with all that heat. Worse of all, valve amps don't sound right until they are thoroughly warmed up, so if you want to listen for a short period, you are not hearing them at their best. Oh, and bass control is not very good, unless you have monster amps.

HISTORY2: I went back to Class AB. A Bryston B2, a Parasound and then a Bryston 4BSST. All excellent. better in some respects but I really missed the 'valve sound'. Then digital amps started improving.

I heard the Nuforce ref 9 and was drawn in by the music, rather than the amp. Similarly, the Red Dragon, the D-Sonic and the Wyred4Sound. Wow, they were ALMOST as good as my big Bryston and some of them were dead cheap.

When the Hypex NC500 module came out it was quite rightly getting rave reviews. I first heard it in an Atsah500 driving huge Eminent Technology speakers and it sounded as good as any hifi I have ever heard. Not by making impressive noises but by sounding like real musicians sitting in the same room as me - just like a valve amp can. Then Nord made some mono-blocks with replaceable op-amps and suddenly you could 'tune' the sound to suit your equipment - just like changing valves. I tried three different op-amps and ended up with a relatively cheap amplifier set up which trounces my big, expensive Bryston 4BSST and gives me a sound pretty close to my beloved valves but with none of the disadvantages.

Apollon now offer something similar to Nord but I have not heard them.

If money and space were no object, I would go back to having huge valve amps. I am not poor but the downside to running such amps is simply not worth it for me. If you have £8,000 worth of fabulous valve amps, you can't just turn them on to listen to a few tracks - they simply won't sound right cold. You can't leave them on all the time because of the heat and the waste of electricity and the waste of valve life. I have therefore compromised on a pair of Nord 500UP monoblocks with Sparkos op-amps driving PMC OB1i transmission line speakers and I am HAPPY.

 

[Pedro2]

The Nord amp that I used in my previous passive system was excellent and beat all of the other ABs that I had owned previously (to my ears). It was also great value for money. If I ever were to return to a passive system, it would still be my amp of choice.

 

[paulkebab]

and thanks for putting a seed in my brain!

 

[chelstondave]

But I went to the Cyrus demo at the Bristol show when they compared their class AB and D amplifiers. At the end they put it to a vote and I reckon over 80% preferred the class D

 

[JMac]

I had some music fidelity M1-PWR amps in dual mono config. Awful, just awful. Never been near a class D since. I really want to listen to Colins Hypex monos to see how things have improved but its not easy given he doesnt have a dealer network.

 

[paulkebab]

by nivalti is pretty convincing, and definitely something to explore. I've emailed Colin for more info and if it means a trip to Cheltenham then so be it. It'll either work out a lot of money saved or new toys

 

[Reijer]

I love my little TEAC AI 501da class D amp. Last Christmasholiday I put the old NAD to the test with the 685's and it was to boomy for me. The TEAC has more control, more refinement. It's all a matter of taste but to me the TEAC is the winner.

Last week TEAC presented some great new stuff.

 

[Macspur]

by nivalti is pretty convincing, and definitely something to explore. I've emailed Colin for more info and if it means a trip to Cheltenham then so be it. It'll either work out a lot of money saved or new toys

If you go, you'll be in for a nice surprise and Colin's a great chap too.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[paulkebab]

A new project in the pipeline so I might give him a call, yes Mac I've only heard good things about him and his products.

 

[newlash09]

great strides. The nord's seem to be getting great reviews all round. Haven't heard a single negative about them so far.

I had been considering going valve for sometime, but the heat is scary. If the present iterations of clss-D have reached the levels of realism, ( holographic is probably the right word ) of tube amps. Then it is worth a audition for sure. If anyone can compare between the Nord's and Bel canto ref 600M's it would be interesting to hear

 

[Gazzip]

IME Class D at lower volume levels are woeful in comparison with Class A/B and Class A. At higher SPL’s there’s not a great deal in it.

 

[paulkebab]

plus experiences of poor expression of piano. The current weather means an audtion isn't on the cards anytime soon though!

 

[Hawkwind16]

I have a Roksan Oxygene Class D Amp in my upstairs study / box room and it sounds very good, although the room and old speakers i use don't do it justice so its difficult to tell in absolute terms. I also tend to play at low volumes. The bluetooth sound and functionality of the Oxygene is excellent.

I understand Roksan bought this design from a company called Artera who allegedly spent c£1m on developing it ! Original RRp was £3500 but they didn't sell many so Roksan cleared out their stock to Richer Sounds - who sold them on for down to £900 ! (where i bought mine). I spoke to a Roksan guy at the Bristol show who teld me that they couldn't get all the electronics they needed to continue the range so had to move it on.

Now no doubt someone lost some money on this design, and the Oxygene has had some good reviews but I wonder how it competes with more traditional Amp designs ? Well i am due to find out soon - my main system has the Roksan caspiam M2 which is excellent so I'm due to compare them very soon.

Anyone care to predict the winner ? My money is on the Caspian M2.

 

[robdmarsh]

Interesting that this has come up as I've wondering if they are as good as their class A or A/B brethren, especially after my less than pleasing trial of a Marantz HD-Amp1, which I have now returned. This was disappointing and sounded small and uninvolving. What was puzzling was that it sounded (for me at least) less good than the amp in my m-cr603, which is a really engaging listen and costs (costed) far less. The attractive thing about class D generally is that they promise a smaller form factor and greater efficiency. They're not always small of course - the Primare 122 being a case in point. That is an amp I'd love to hear.

 

[robdmarsh]

I love my little TEAC AI 501da class D amp. Last Christmasholiday I put the old NAD to the test with the 685's and it was to boomy for me. The TEAC has more control, more refinement. It's all a matter of taste but to me the TEAC is the winner.

Last week TEAC presented some great new stuff.

I was watching a guy talking about this amp on Youtube the other day. It looks lovely. I have a soft spot for TEAC gear and might give it a go if I can find a cheap one.

 

[robdmarsh]

If I might put in a good word for the Class D amp at the heart of my own system. (Albeit contained within a £479 'all-in-one' unit.)

Short of Rega launching an 'all-in-one' (or me winning a sizeable lottery pay-out and going bonkers at my nearest Luxman/Harbeth vendors), I have no desire to change or upgrade from the M-CR603.

Hi there Chebby! Good for you singing in the praises of the M-cr603. I still love mine - sounds fantastic with Elac debut b5. If you're ever tempted by the sexy looking HD Amp1, don't be! I was hoping it would give me more of what the 603 gives me, but strangely it doesn't.

If it looks like I'm taking this thread over on my own, it's cos I'm sitting here watching the snow.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Cheers for the positive comments. Yes Class D has come along way. Our typical customer for our NC500 is a very experienced Audiophile with high end kit, £5-10K speakers etc and replacing large A A/B power amps, even tubes.

Newlash09 asked about a comparison the the Bel Canto Ref600M well our NC500 uses the same main two components. the difference is we use $400 of discrete Op Amps and Voltage regulators in our input buffer rather than a couple of pound IC based components. The result is a richer more dynamic sound for half the price of the Bel Canto.

We were thinking of doing a amp tour sending it around to folks who would like to hear one with out the pressure to buy one. All we would ask is you to post your impressions of the amp. If there is any interest?

 

[insider9]

Cheers for the positive comments. Yes Class D has come along way. Our typical customer for our NC500 is a very experienced Audiophile with high end kit, £5-10K speakers etc and replacing large A A/B power amps, even tubes.

Newlash09 asked about a comparison the the Bel Canto Ref600M well our NC500 uses the same main two components. the difference is we use $400 of discrete Op Amps and Voltage regulators in our input buffer rather than a couple of pound IC based components. The result is a richer more dynamic sound for half the price of the Bel Canto.

We were thinking of doing a amp tour sending it around to folks who would like to hear one with out the pressure to buy one. All we would ask is you to post your impressions of the amp. If there is any interest?

That's an amazing idea.
I'll be honest if that's the case I'd love to give it a listen and and I'll happily do a write up. I'm sure there will be a lot of interest. But if at all possible please add me to a list.

I'm a class D sceptic and I'm yet to hear class D amp that I like. I know it's nothing to do with topology and all with implementation so would love to be proved wrong.

 

[Electro]

Cheers for the positive comments. Yes Class D has come along way. Our typical customer for our NC500 is a very experienced Audiophile with high end kit, £5-10K speakers etc and replacing large A A/B power amps, even tubes.

Newlash09 asked about a comparison the the Bel Canto Ref600M well our NC500 uses the same main two components. the difference is we use $400 of discrete Op Amps and Voltage regulators in our input buffer rather than a couple of pound IC based components. The result is a richer more dynamic sound for half the price of the Bel Canto.

We were thinking of doing a amp tour sending it around to folks who would like to hear one with out the pressure to buy one. All we would ask is you to post your impressions of the amp. If there is any interest?

You can count me in as a tester Colin, especially for a pair of your top monoblocks or a stereo power amp .

I have been wondering how they would compare with my Electro 180 mono's for quite a while but I did not want to waste your time if I wasn't really serious about buying something.

My EC 4.8 preamp and the rest of my system is square in your target range as well . *smile*

I will be truthful and honest about the trial / test but they have seriously good rivals in my Electro's to beat *biggrin*

I am going to throw away all my hats just in case I need to eat one after listening. *biggrin*

 

[bigfish786]

having just bought a premium Marantz amp, i would love to pitch the integrated amplifier against it. i have been thoroughly impressed by the Marantz, which replaced a Leema Pulse that i'd had for at least three years. the Leema was roughly the same price as the Nord integraged new, and i do still have the Leema, so i could do a three way test with them all.

that should give an honest account of all three amps. and give a decent balance of price and performance . i also have an Arcam A70 in a second system that could throw in a fourth "budget" opinion.

A four-way multi budget, multi talented shootout.

i'm up for it, if you are .

 

[iQ Speakers]

Ok great guys, Ill start a new thread in the next couple of days with details etc. Looks like I might have to build an integrated as well as power amps? I suppose you guys with Integrated could use the Pre outs? However we do have the new ICE Power 1200AS2 module that we will be putting into our Integrated its very very close to our top NC500 amps and offers 600W into 8 Ohms so sounds pretty special.

 

[steve_1979]

I don't own any passive speakers so there's no point me borrowing it but I sure do look forward to reading everyone elses views and comparisons to their own amps.

 

[paulkebab]

Colin, I'd definitely be up for that. Re integrated the pre-out would be handy for me to feed the headphone amp but not an absolute neccessity and I'd like to be able to choose which op-amp on build.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I’ve had my Devialet 200 for over three years and in that time haven’t heard anything better. Nor has it given me any trouble whatsoever. The compound result of Class A allied to Class D to my ears really works, giving a crystal clear, transparent and open sound which has a little valvey warmth to it. The sound is never tiring or shrill and has plenty of emotional connectivity and involvement. I would agree that at very low listening levels, a little of this is lost, but in general the sound is uniformly excellent. Add in the fact that volume, tone controls and SAM which enables your speakers to perform better than they should, is all done in the digital domain along with cartridge matching for the Phono input and you have a uniquely adaptable device.

You can probably tell by now that I love this Amp. In fact, I love it almost as much as my S8 Valve Amp......