Trying to get my room out of the way

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shadders

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ellisdj said:
Shadders you describe the situation there perfectly and the problem

Bass problem is 60hz approx - but you dont actually know that for sure obviously, cant tell that by ear - saying we do know that is the problem. You seal the speaker and that reduces the bass at 60hz by 10db and reduces the boom somewhhat - thats great

But and its a very big But - what about 50hz and 40hz and 30hz and 70hz and 80hz etc that are all reduced as well as a result of sealing the speaker - we have affected all the other bass trying to reduce just one small range of it??

Hi,

That is what sealed enclosures do - they cut off earlier in the lower frequencies. A ported enclosure extends the bass - but has a steeper roll off at the lower frequencies. At some stage in the lower frequencies the bass response is going to be similar for both sealed and ported.

ellisdj said:
And thats assuming we have perfect bass to start with and only 1 problem - but that is never the case in a normal sized room. Never the case.

In most rooms that I have seen measured the bass problems are horrendous and the bass is horrendously bad. And most of the time overall there is not nearly enough bass - so to try and reduce the bass furher by sealing the speaker to fix just one issue by Pure Guess work - is pointless, bad practice and will result in worse sound not better. Its not a sensible thing to do its an ill informed thing to do and mistake - unless you have measured and checked and confirmed it will fix the problem - I know for a fact bass in a room doesnt work like that - its far from that easy

The original poster has too much bass - so blocking the port and reducing the bass will be a solution. This solution of blocking the port has NEVER been stated to achieve the same results as a DSP solution. It is immediate, cheap and reversible.

If the listener enjoys the reduction - then great - nothing lost. If not, then they can pursue the DSP solution. DSP is not the only solution possible, it is only perhaps the optimal solution.

If sealed enclosures were such a poor solution - no hifi manufacturer would supply them.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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Shadders a sealed speaker rolls of much earlier - so at 60hz it might be -10db compared to the ported speaker depending on design - just an example maybe a little over the reality buts its easier exaplining in these numbers

So what about 50hz being at -12db and 40hz being -14db for example compared to the ported speaker - the whole range is reduced in volume. Maybe at 20hz they will both be at same volume - 20db for example but the important range will All be reduced by sealing the speaker. Not only the problem freq

So at the MLP there was +10db hump at 60hz so that balanced out by sealing the speaker - Great - doesnt happen like that in real life but still for the example.

But at 50hz we had 0db @ the MLP - so now the speaker is sealed 50hz is reduced by -12db so we are now -12db at 50hz How is that actually giving us better bass overall?

We dont have bass boom because all the bass is at too much volume - we have bass boom because some of it is. Its never all of it

Therefore reducing all the bass by sealing the speaker - affects all the bass at the MLP - not just the problem freq's. So it doesnt make the situation better. Bass in any one point in a room is not Linear either, so that tactic of bunging the speaker wont fix the problem, it maybe just shifts it. at best
 

shadders

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ellisdj said:
Shadders a sealed speaker rolls of much earlier - so at 60hz it might be -10db compared to the ported speaker depending on design - just an example maybe a little over the reality buts its easier exaplining in these numbers

So what about 50hz being at -12db and 40hz being -14db for example compared to the ported speaker - the whole range is reduced in volume. Maybe at 20hz they will both be at same volume - 20db for example but the important range will All be reduced by sealing the speaker. Not only the problem freq

So at the MLP there was +10db hump at 60hz so that balanced out by sealing the speaker - Great - doesnt happen like that in real life but still for the example.

But at 50hz we had 0db @ the MLP - so now the speaker is sealed 50hz is reduced by -12db so we are now -12db at 50hz How is that actually giving us better bass overall?

We dont have bass boom because all the bass is at too much volume - we have bass boom because some of it is. Its never all of it

Therefore reducing all the bass by sealing the speaker - affects all the bass at the MLP - not just the problem freq's. So it doesnt make the situation better. Bass in any one point in a room is not Linear either, so that tactic of bunging the speaker wont fix the problem, it maybe just shifts it. at best
Hi,

That is the point of blocking the port - it will reduce the bass frequencies - i never stated it will remove any mode or other issue. I never stated it will NOT affect other frequencies.

It is a quick and easy solution - not optimal, but it can be A solution. Not THE solution but A solution.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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So you have admitted that as a tactic to fix boomy bass bunging the port doesnt work as a comprehensive solution to getting better bass, so therefore its not good advice or a good tactic to achieving better overall bass

Thank you - it would have been easier to say - hands help up I was wrong you was right - I would have said thanks very much
 

ellisdj

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The difference is on paper you may think your bass looks like a pregnant womans belly there is so much of it - therefore reducing the whole range makes sense by bunging the port. If that was the case then it makes sense to do that

But in reality when you have experience of measuring rooms you know its going to be more like the alps or a mountain range very much up and very much down and there is a good chance you wont have enough bass overall or in parts of the freq range due to the horrors of room acoustics

So reducing the overall amount of bass from the speaker by bunging the ports is potentially doing as much damage as good - shifting the problem not fixing it.
 

shadders

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ellisdj said:
So you have admitted that as a tactic to fix boomy bass bunging the port doesnt work as a comprehensive solution to getting better bass, so therefore its not good advice or a good tactic to achieving better overall bass

Thank you - it would have been easier to say - hands help up I was wrong you was right - I would have said thanks very much
Hi,

It was never stated that blocking the port was more optimal than a DSP solution.

Blocking the port will have an effect of reducing the bass as the original poster requires. Whether it is too much or too little, you will never know until you try.

Blocking the port is good advice, been done for decades, if it is not to the listeners liking, it is easily reversible. Let the listener decide. If they report back that blocking the ports did not work, then ok, but t least they tried a simple cheap solution. Moving the back ported speakers away from the wall may help too.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

shadders

Well-known member
ellisdj said:
The difference is on paper you may think your bass looks like a pregnant womans belly there is so much of it - therefore reducing the whole range makes sense by bunging the port. If that was the case then it makes sense to do that

But in reality when you have experience of measuring rooms you know its going to be more like the alps or a mountain range very much up and very much down and there is a good chance you wont have enough bass overall or in parts of the freq range due to the horrors of room acoustics

So reducing the overall amount of bass from the speaker by bunging the ports is potentially doing as much damage as good - shifting the problem not fixing it.
Hi,

There is no damage to the sound if you block the ports - it is as if you had sealed enclosure speakers.

Let the original poster try - if they don't like it - no harm done - but they have not spent any money.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

ellisdj

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Why does the op need less bass? How do you know that? How does anyone know that for sure?

I very much doubt that is the case for the op - I bet he needs much more overall bass and just less bass in one region around 50 - 60hz - that is the swamper range.

For Example Gazzip system recently - no dirac his bass was booming in the front corners of his room. You might have easily been tricked into thinking the speakers are too big and there is too much bass - lets bung the ports, lets move the speakers out more

Then you look at his actual measured bass there was not enough from 50hz up and only at 30hz did he have too much.

Putting bungs in the ports of his speakers would have reduced his 30hz problem but it would have made his overall bass much much worse, much to lean and no good at all. What makes his situation that much different to anyone else?
 

shadders

Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Why does the op need less bass? How do you know that? How does anyone know that for sure?

I very much doubt that is the case for the op - I bet he needs much more overall bass and just less bass in one region around 50 - 60hz - that is the swamper range.

For Example Gazzip system recently - no dirac his bass was booming in the front corners of his room. You might have easily been tricked into thinking the speakers are too big and there is too much bass - lets bung the ports, lets move the speakers out more

Then you look at his actual measured bass there was not enough from 50hz up and only at 30hz did he have too much.

Putting bungs in the ports of his speakers would have reduced his 30hz problem but it would have made his overall bass much much worse, much to lean and no good at all. What makes his situation that much different to anyone else?
Hi,

The issue is booming bass - so a reduction will reduce the boom. Is it optimal compared to DSP ? No, but it will have an effect.

It is your interpretation that lean bass is no good. If that was the case then people would not purchase sealed enclosure speakers.

As someone else has stated - move the speakers about to see if that helps - DSP is not the only solution.

Again, blocking the ports is a solution - the original poster might find that the reduced bass is more enjoyable.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

lindsayt

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I can understand where ellisdj is coming from.

Blocking the port would be fixing one problem (too much in room bass at certain frequencies) by applying an inverse problem (leaning out the bass by blocking the port). That's not really a good basis for acheiving hi-fi contentment.

newlash, what speakers do you currently have?

If they require going active plus dsp to sound good to your ears in your room then I'd suggest you have the wrong speakers in the first place. There's nothing stopping you from changing your speakers.

Once you've got speakers that sound good to you, you may wish to tweak them by going digitally active / DSP.

Do you really need 250 watt amplifiers? Are they genuine 250 watts continuous into 8 ohms? Or is the 250 watt rating mostly down to the manufacturer pushing the marketing envelope (EG 125 watts per channel peak into 4 ohms for a stereo amp marketing nonsense)?

If I wanted a load of power amplifiers for an active project I'd get a stack of Urei 6230's at c$150 each. Or maybe a load of ebayed used Japanese amps at $20 each? What amplifiers were you thinking of buying? $1400 for the amplification seems like far too much money for this project.
 

ellisdj

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I have had 5 different pairs of speakers in my room and every single pair has had the same huge 68hz peak in the bass - it wouldnt matter what speakers I use it would be the same. I would never find a satisfying pair of speakers Lindseyt so thats not the guaranteed solution either mate.
 

Vladimir

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DSP is same as putting an old sock in the port. You have room modes and you're 'solving' them by changing the speaker FR. If you have 8ft. ceilings, you are definitely hearing the fundamental 70Hz boom, and worse if it continues at 140, 210.

When you change the speaker FR it has unpredictable side effects, especially with compromised two-way designs with a mid-bass. Ideally what needs treating is the room, not the speakers, amps or cables. Ideally.... but in the real world I see how DSP can be an acceptable compromise. Is it worth it to the extent the OP is aiming at? Not IMO. However, others are happy to cheer him on, as they have seen (heard) the light. So if he is determined to proceed with this adventure, we might as well participate in some constructive capacity.

Ellisdj if you don't mind you can share us your REW (Room EQ Wizard) youtube tutorial.
 

lindsayt

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It may not be about ther quantity of the bass at particular frequencies, it may be about the quality.

If you have speakers suffering from bass bloom, subjectively that's going to sound worse than speakers with tighter / more tuneful / more textured bass even in a room with a 68 hz bass peak.

There will be some speakers that will sound subjectively better in the bass region in your room and in newlash's room than others.

At the moment we don't know what speakers newlash has. He could have speakers with tragically bad bass performance. That's why I asked him what he has.
 

Vladimir

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lindsayt said:
It may not be about ther quantity of the bass at particular frequencies, it may be about the quality.

If you have speakers suffering from bass bloom, subjectively that's going to sound worse than speakers with tighter / more tuneful / more textured bass even in a room with a 68 hz bass peak.

There will be some speakers that will sound subjectively better in the bass region in your room and in newlash's room than others.

At the moment we don't know what speakers newlash has. He could have speakers with tragically bad bass performance. That's why I asked him what he has.

You will rarely find a speaker with bass hump at 60-80Hz. It's the room that's doing it, and even with the flatest speakers measured in anechoic enviroment. The bass performance could be perfection, but the room can ruin it by exagerating or with nulls.

If the speaker is bad and the room is bad, then DSP may fix a lot of issues. But if the speaker is good and the room is bad, we may slightly ruin the speaker. I'm merely echoing Floyd E. Toole and Ethan Weiner, but it also matches my experience in some situations.

Anyways, on with the DSPs. I think it's an interesting thread.
 

chelstondave

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According to the original post. Looking back through his past posts it seems that he was relatively happy with his previous Q7000i setup and then got upgradeitis (can happen with any of us). His room is a modest 11 x 15 foot. Frankly if the Op hasn't been scared off by all this I would advise him to consider cutting his losses and rather than spend extra money trying to get what he has got to fit his room and needs , go back to what he was happy with before. He has tried several changes of amplifiers and speakers to no avail. It is easy to be seduced by 5 star reviews and advice to spend on this and that searching for sound you never get.
 

ellisdj

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More than likely 11 x 15 feet is the problem. Very narrow - lots of issues

I feel your pain - mine is 18 L x 12 W x 8 H - very narrow - lots of issues
 

Vladimir

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ellisdj said:
Vlad - its more of a ramble than tutorial - I think your giving me a bit too much credit there :)

Thanks.
thumbs_up.gif
 

newlash09

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Just got back to reading all thats been suggested so far.

1) Room size is 11 x 15 feet. With solid concrete walls and vitrified hard tiles. Ceiling height is 9 feet. ( This room actually extends to 25 feet in length, if you consider the dining area at the other end )

2) The speakers are Qacoustics Concept 40's.

3) Had tried several positions in the living room. Placing them along the 15ft wall was unbearable, and could feel the pressure building up on my ear drums, apart from the boom.

4) Have them now firing down the 11ft wall. They are placed about 80 cms from the back wall. Distance to the left wall from left speaker is one feet, and distance to right wall from right speaker is 3 feet. ( Have a door way here on the 11ft wall, so have to leave room )

5) My listening distance is 10 ft. And my room has a lot of echo. ( Found out on doing the clap test )

6) Started off with a Audiopro 5.0 floor stander HT setup with a Sony STR-DN 850. Felt it too boomy. Thought that the amp was not able to control the 8 inch woofers built into the floor standers.

7) Bought a Qacoustics Q7000i system to go with the Sony STR-DN850. Sounded decent. But was not blown away.

8) So upgraded to the Marantz SR6011 for Audessey Multi XT32, and to also go atmos. The Q7000i sounded beautiful with the marantz.

9) Thought that the marantz with its superior room correction and better amp sections could control floor standers better. Tried it with the Audiopro floor standers i still have. Felt slightly better, but the boom was definitely there.

10) So, thought I'd upgrade to floor standers for better scale. And purchased the concept 40 speakers. But despite them being better refined speakers. They are still booming in my room.

11) It is now apparent that I should have probably gone with bookshelves in my room. I will incur a considerable financial loss by selling my concept 40 speakers where i live. So, Iam trying to salvage the situation as best as i can.

12) I will be going to the US on a short trip soon. Was planning on purchasing either a Peachtree Nova 150 or NAD C388 or Parasound Halo P5+A23 ( pre+pro), as a last ditch effort to see if i could enjoy the sound again. If this also failed, i would have sold these speakers and bought a bookshelf speaker to go with these new amps.

13) After reading on the mini-dsp site, the idea originated that I could use my budget for the planned stereo amp to buy me something that can better handle my room via DSP.

This may not mitigate my boom problem, because Audessey has already failed. So, Iam essentially in splits, wether to just buy a stereo amp and go for bookshelf speakers. Or should I spend a little more and give it one final shot. Thanks.
 

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