Day of Testing Cheap Cables vs Expensive - write up as promised

[keeper of the quays]

It's each to their own on spending what amount on what but if you hearfa something and really like it and really want it in your system you only have 2 options.
Cough up or listen without- I would chose the former where I can.

Fair comment, it just amazes me that some of the forum members here can't hear any difference between cables..i guess if we all liked the same thing.there would be no need for forums...or opinions or chattering blather! Hey! A idea is forming? Let's all just like the same thing! No one gets agitated..no anger or frustration? Lol

 

[TomSawyer]

It's each to their own on spending what amount on what but if you hear something and really like it and really want it in your system you only have 2 options. Cough up or listen without- I would chose the former where I can.

I think this could be why these discussions get so emotional. Essentially there are believers, non believers and agnostics (like me). People like me probably cause all the trouble because we're the ones who keep the debate going in "the search for truth".

In the inevitable debate, I think the believers can possibly feel criticised by the non believers for spending so much on "witchcraft" and become defensive as a result.mThe reality is that we can spend our money on whatever we like regardless of what anyone else thinks. My motorbike is worth about £2k but my tools, all in, are worth about £5k. Doesn't make sense to most people but I get great pleasure from making and fixing and using nice tools.

In hindsight, perhaps it was niaive of me to think that we could discuss our way nearer to the truth. If that was possible it would already have been done and the market would reflect that.

 

[andyjm]

Ellisdj,

Firstly, well done. Sir Isaac Newton would be proud of you. The 'scientific method' - proposing a hypothesis and then testing to see whether experimental results confirm the hypothesis or not - is the basis of modern science.

Secondly, thanks for the write up. It obviously took time and care.

Thirdly, some constructive criticisms of your test.

1. The test was sighted. That kind of rules out any objective basis to the test. It is important when designing a test to ensure that factors external to the test are eliminated. Your hypothesis was 'cables sound different', not 'cables sound different if I know there has been a change' - you tested for the second case, not the first.

2. You chose the wrong cables. Of all the cable likely to make a difference, I would put the mains cable as the least likely, closely followed by the SPDIF cable between the reclocker and DAC. (It does raise the question why Electro has a reclocker - if his DAC was any good it should be immune to any timing irregulaties on the SPDIF feed).

3. If you wanted to test something that at least has a chance of making a difference, try the cable from turntable cartridge to the phono stage (if he has one), or swapping out thick speaker cable for thin cable.

4. Should the opportunity come to repeat the test, get Mrs Electro or Mrs Ellisdj (or their equivalent) to swap the cables without you seeing the change while you take a well earned rest. Then see what difference you notice.

It would be great if more posters on here tried tests like this.

 

[ellisdj]

That is the sort of post that starts all the arguments. Trying to not have that in this thread, not until we have heard from Electro at least

It's a write up of a listening session that is all not meant to challenge any proven theories of science. I hopefully didnt write it to appear that way.

We didn't chose the wrong cables we changed the only cables we could based on what I took with me.

It's funny you say that - you would expect the cables changed to have the least effect and yet that effect was still very powerful from my sighted biased listening session.

 

[andyjm]

It's funny you say that - you would expect the cables changed to have the least effect and yet that effect was still very powerful from my sighted biased listening session.

I think that is rather my point.

 

[andyjm]

It's each to their own on spending what amount on what but if you hear something and really like it and really want it in your system you only have 2 options. Cough up or listen without- I would chose the former where I can.

I think this could be why these discussions get so emotional. Essentially there are believers, non believers and agnostics (like me). People like me probably cause all the trouble because we're the ones who keep the debate going in "the search for truth".

In the inevitable debate, I think the believers can possibly feel criticised by the non believers for spending so much on "witchcraft" and become defensive as a result.mThe reality is that we can spend our money on whatever we like regardless of what anyone else thinks. My motorbike is worth about £2k but my tools, all in, are worth about £5k. Doesn't make sense to most people but I get great pleasure from making and fixing and using nice tools.

In hindsight, perhaps it was niaive of me to think that we could discuss our way nearer to the truth. If that was possible it would already have been done and the market would reflect that.

Tom,

It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of fact. You need to ask a specific question, or weasel words get in the way. A reasonable question might be 'do different, properly specified and well made mains cables make an audible difference to the output of an audio amplifier in a domestic setting'.

If it were me, I would try three approaches:

1. Analyse the circuit design - is it possible that any effect from changing mains cables could be audible?

2. Perform a series of electrical tests to see whether any audible change in amplifier output is detectable when cables are actually changed.

3. Perform an unsighted test with appropriate protocols to avoid bias to see whether listeners can detect a change in a statistically significant manner.

This has been done, many, many times. If you care to search, there is data on the web. There have even been legal judgements agains the claims made by cable manufacturers, and try as I might, I have yet to find a single test of either 1, 2 or 3 above that would indicate a change in mains cable is audible.

The truth is clear, known, and demonstrable. Whether people chose to believe it, is of course a matter for them.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Well done for trying.

I would think that after 5 hours, probably at highish levels, listening fatigue would be a major factor. If nothing else it shows how difficult it is to test these 'things'. I think your methods of comparison are clearly flawed but that is a comment rather than critism and I suspect a more scientific approach would take away the enjoyment of the session for you both. I read the post as an interesting experience between two forumites rather than any definitive 'proof' and therefore thank you.

 

[ID.]

It's each to their own on spending what amount on what but if you hearfa something and really like it and really want it in your system you only have 2 options. Cough up or listen without- I would chose the former where I can.

Fair comment, it just amazes me that some of the forum members here can't hear any difference between cables..i guess if we all liked the same thing.there would be no need for forums...or opinions or chattering blather! Hey! A idea is forming? Let's all just like the same thing! No one gets agitated..no anger or frustration? Lol

I hear differences. I hear differences between digital cables and power cables too (and it's always the classic very vague description of a blacker background, etc.). I've also heard these differences disappear. Then again I hear differences when nothing has changed just because of my mental state. Most people hear differences. The issue is whether or not these differences disappear or become less pronounced when taking certain factors out of the equation.

Me, I have a third choice - If it's going to cost that much money I want to be damn sure that there's a difference worth that amount and I'll want it blind tested. Others are happy to succumb to the power of suggestion. I agree, it's their money and they can spend it on what makes them subjectively happy. I've heard doctors complain that they aren't allowed to prescribe placebo's because they work in a certain percentage of situations. The power of the mind and all that.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I have chord cables right through my system and to tell you the truth I don't know if they sound better than cheaper ones but I am in the safe knowledge that it's doing the rest of my hi-fi justice and that they are well built cables and will last a lifetime,can't really be bothered chopping and changing round the back of the units to hear if this sounds better than that it's a pointless task as you can never truly compare a to b......unless you have two exactly the same systems side by side with just the cables being the difference.imho.

 

[ellisdj]

For the record if anyone else wants to show me their system especially if they are using all freeby style cables we can do something similar and they can come here after and listen etc with reports back on opinon.

I dont mind travelling a bit.

BTW EDIT 5 hours listening loud with no fatigue and no boredom. Sign of good sound

 

[chebby]

It's good that people are getting together to test these things rather than just starting more "does, doesn't, does, doesn't ... etc." debates.

I'm afraid you lost me at the mention of "28k" for an estimate of cabling for the whole system. (I could get two of my 'dream systems' out of the £8k with enough change for a nice little holiday.)

I have a mixture of cables from around a fiver each (Chord C-Power mains cable. The mains cable supplied with my Quad amp was an affront! It's build quality is akin to a yoghurt carton. (Thin and hollow and feels like it could shatter with a hard stare!)

So I went to my local hi-fi shop to order a 'standard' Naim mains cable for £30 (the ordinary one with the MK Safety Plug) as an indulgence. Instead they asked me to 'try' an ex-demo Chord C-Power for £37 instead of £55. It feels just right and has impeccable build and has every EC and BS certification (unlike many boutique 'exotics'). I make no audio quality claims for it and I know it would sound identical to the 'free in the box' POS lead Quad provided. But I feel happier about the well built version.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

"Listening loud with no fatigue". Mmmm. After a concert, driving home - tell me my ears are capable of discerning audio capability. Sorry to seem a nay-sayer but as a 'scientist' its difficult not to see flaws in somenthings when they claim to be some kind of definitive explaination or proof. Nevertheless, an enjoyable experience for you no doubt - just question any conclusions. If it was easy we would all be doing it.

 

[ellisdj]

Well it could have been the system warming back up to equilibrium after being turned off to put the cables in.

But I assume Electro turned it all off the same before changing that power lead. I don't remember the same effect when it went back on.
We listened to the same track 3 times between the 2 changes and he was level checking for volume using an spl meter to rule out a large volume difference having an effect

 

[MajorFubar]

Nice write-up but would be good to hear from Electro.

 

[bigboss]

I've heard doctors complain that they aren't allowed to prescribe placebo's because they work in a certain percentage of situations. The power of the mind and all that.

Yes, I'm one of the complainers. About 15 years ago (not in this country), I cured impotence in a man with vitamin B capsules. He returned in 2 days to thank me profusely!!

 

[TomSawyer]

The truth is clear, known, and demonstrable. Whether people chose to believe it, is of course a matter for them.

Andy, I agree, subject of course to the the physics disclaimer. "Ye cannae change the laws of physics" being entirely wrong. What Scotty should have said is "Based on our current, and yet to be disproven understanding, that won't work" - never really going to be much of a catch phrase. As an engineer, I'm firmly in the science camp on this (hence my inexpensive cables). But I'm also human.

And here's where it get interesting because music reproduction, like photography is producing something through technology that invokes an emotional reaction. As scientists and engineers it's easy to consider the sound wave as the end result but surely the emotional reaction, deep within the brain is the end result - not the sound wave itself.

Now, if someone buys a new cable and in doing so hears an improvement, and by hear I don't mean their ear drum vibrates differently, I mean that within their brain they hear an improvement, regardless of which emotional processes contribute to said improvement, then is that any really less valid than any other?

*wink*

 

[keeper of the quays]

I've heard doctors complain that they aren't allowed to prescribe placebo's because they work in a certain percentage of situations. The power of the mind and all that.

Yes, I'm one of the complainers. About 15 years ago (not in this country), I cured impotence in a man with vitamin B capsules. He returned in 2 days to thank me profusely!!

any chance of suggestion for the forum members who don't believe I am a forum superhero? I was thinking of strong laxatives to cure their unbelief!

 

[keeper of the quays]

Well done for trying.

I would think that after 5 hours, probably at highish levels, listening fatigue would be a major factor. If nothing else it shows how difficult it is to test these 'things'. I think your methods of comparison are clearly flawed but that is a comment rather than critism and I suspect a more scientific approach would take away the enjoyment of the session for you both. I read the post as an interesting experience between two forumites rather than any definitive 'proof' and therefore thank you.

Mr rob, allow me to second your remarks! Much as it galls me to do this...i agree! 100%

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Well done for trying.

I would think that after 5 hours, probably at highish levels, listening fatigue would be a major factor. If nothing else it shows how difficult it is to test these 'things'. I think your methods of comparison are clearly flawed but that is a comment rather than critism and I suspect a more scientific approach would take away the enjoyment of the session for you both. I read the post as an interesting experience between two forumites rather than any definitive 'proof' and therefore thank you.

Mr rob, allow me to second your remarks! Much as it galls me to do this...i agree! 100%

Awwww. You big pussy cat.

 

[bigboss]

I was thinking of strong laxatives to cure their unbelief!

Good idea! Make sure you take it with a large glass of water for better effect.

 

[andyjm]

The truth is clear, known, and demonstrable. Whether people chose to believe it, is of course a matter for them.

Andy, I agree, subject of course to the the physics disclaimer. "Ye cannae change the laws of physics" being entirely wrong. What Scotty should have said is "Based on our current, and yet to be disproven understanding, that won't work" - never really going to be much of a catch phrase. As an engineer, I'm firmly in the science camp on this (hence my inexpensive cables). But I'm also human.

And here's where it get interesting because music reproduction, like photography is producing something through technology that invokes an emotional reaction. As scientists and engineers it's easy to consider the sound wave as the end result but surely the emotional reaction, deep within the brain is the end result - not the sound wave itself.

Now, if someone buys a new cable and in doing so hears an improvement, and by hear I don't mean their ear drum vibrates differently, I mean that within their brain they hear an improvement, regardless of which emotional processes contribute to said improvement, then is that any really less valid than any other?

Indeed, and this is what many of us who do have engineering backgrounds have pointed out on many occasions. You don't listen with your ears, you listen with your brain. The fact that you change your cables and are 100% sure you hear a difference is correct - you hear a difference. That doesn't mean to say that the sound coming from the speaker has changed in any way.

I think this is where the 'believers' fundamentally misunderstand the 'naysayers'. We all hear differences when we change things. I certainly do. New amp, new cables, whatever. Unlike 'believers', I am prepared to accept that the the sound has remained the same, but my perception of the sound has altered.

If an individual buys a cable which makes no sonic difference, but the individual hears a difference, then that's just great. What is not so great is advising others that they should also buy the cable to achieve the same perceived benefit - they may, they may not. I personally think it is much more defendable to explain the basics of the situation, why the change is unlikely to have the benefit claimed and perhaps encourage the individual to spend his money in areas that could make a real difference.

 

[expat_mike]

I think this is where the 'believers' fundamentally misunderstand the 'naysayers'. We all hear differences when we change things. I certainly do. New amp, new cables, whatever. Unlike 'believers', I am prepared to accept that the the sound has remained the same, but my perception of the sound has altered [probably because of expectation bias or similar].

+1

 

[Electro]

Right I suppose I had better make my feelings and observations known. *smile*

Firstly I would like to thank ellisdj for his very positive and accurate report, he is very passionate about his HiFi and music which for me is very refreshing, he is also a very nice bloke. *smile*

When he first arrived we had a chat an a quick cup of tea before getting down to business, I played a few tracks from spotify via my ipad , monarchy audio DIP (re- clocker ) to my Electro DAC using all my own varied selection of cables and he seemed suitably impressed but I think he was struggling to take in the big presentational differences to his own system .

I explained to him that I like music on my system to sound as close to live music as possible with all the detail and dynamics preserved warts and all , I find music without dynamics and a live feel sounds a little unnatural , I want the image to be as big as possible in depth and width which I think I have achieved quite well, with some recordinds the image can appear to be 50' or more deep and extend out sideways the same or more with all the detail and dynamics and acoustic intact, a bit like nailing the venue onto the end of my room .

Ellisdj said he prefers a more focused sound soild sound with a warmer upper bass filling out the sound in a bit but he seemed in awe of my systems imaging and dynamic capabilty especially drums and the way they sounded so lifelike.

We then played some Cd's and he much prefered the sound instantly and was a lot more enthusiastic about everything, I do agree that Cd does sound better that spotify premuim but spotify is still very very good imo in fact it is more than good enough to listen music with out feeling I am missing anything substantial.

We then tried a cable change but as my system is fully balanced it was difficult to replace balanced interconnects with his lovely lookind and VERY expensive XLO rca cables , so we decided to remove my £7 AES/EBU interconnects between my Cd player transport to reclocker and reclocker to Dac because the have an RCA option.

I admit that I did hear a difference but for me there were more negatives than positives, there was to my ear a reduction in scale and the image shrunk more to the centre with less Depth of image but the sound was a little more focused in the centre and the upper bass fuller.

ellisdj definitely prefered the presentation with his cables fitted, I didn't but I can understand why he did.

We then changed a mains cable and decided to change the one to the pre-amp as it should have more influence there it was a very impressive looking beast with a feel and look of the very best quality and also very expensive.

This was not completely fair as I am already using some very very old but cheap to me second hand kimber mains lead that cost me about £30 so it was not the freebie in the box .

We both agreed that some of the space and imaging had returned but I must admit that to me I still prefered the sound of my original cables but ellisdj much prefered the sound with the mains cable installed.

We then played a varied selection of Cd's to get more of an idea of what was going on .

We then put the original cables back and listened again but it was very dificult to listen for changes we were both just enjoying the music and forgetting to do the critical listening or at least that was the impression I got from ellisdj.*smile*

After about what seemed to be a couple of hours but turned out to be five hours the music session came to an end due to other commitments, I think we could has kept on listening for another five hours if time had permitted !

Bearing in mind we had been listening at levels bettween 80 and 95db at the istening position most of the time there was zero listening fatique in fact I carried on listening after ellisdj had gone .

So in summary I think we both has a great deal of fun listening to good music, the test was far from scientific but I agree that the cables that ellisdj brought did make a difference to our ears it was just a matter of taste .

Would I spend that amount of money on cables ? No not in a million years !

But I may have to eat my words after I hear ellisdj's system *wink*.

I realise that there is not a lot of information for the purists here other than the fact I will be sticking to my cheaper cable.

The most important thing gained here is a new friend ( I hope*smile* ) and a thoroughly enjoyable day of listening had by all, I will endeavour to do more of this sort of thing in future .

 

[luckylion100]

my apparent mish mash of components and their musical output. I'm happy with my dirty mains supply, my inexpensive cables doing what they're meant to, piss poor or not, they'll remain out of sight and out of mind. I sleep better as a result. ;-)

Source for me is key, especially at my level of equipment ownership. I played the Damned, Final Damination (live) on vinyl this morning and it sounded shite, poor source (format some may say) exposed to the extreme. My system lets me know the quality of the source pretty well. With respect you can keep your more revealing, ridiculously over priced cables if it exposes poorly mastered recordings even more. I'm happy in my ignorance... ;-)

I'm not a scientist (obviously) just a fledgling hifi nut but I fail to see how this experiment was of any real benefit other than to offer the two participants a day of shared musical enjoyment. And to provide a virtual arena for some online sparring. I do though appreciate the time taken to post their observations of the experiment.

I would however be interested to see the OP' home components listed as his system has been referred to. No need for an overblown signature, just post within the body of a message...

Edit, posted before I read Electros take on events.

Enjoy your weekend.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Right I suppose I had better make my feelings and observations known.  *smile*

Firstly I would like to thank ellisdj for his very positive and accurate report, he is very passionate about his HiFi and music which for me is very refreshing, he is also a very nice bloke. *smile*

When he first arrived we had a chat an a quick cup of tea before getting down to business, I played a few tracks from spotify via my ipad , monarchy audio DIP (re- clocker ) to my Electro DAC using all my own varied selection of cables and he seemed suitably impressed but I think he was struggling to take in the big presentational differences to his own system .

I explained to him that I like music on my system to sound as close to live music as possible with all the detail and dynamics preserved warts and all , I find music without dynamics and a live feel sounds a little unnatural , I want the image to be as big as possible in depth and width which I think I have achieved quite well, with some recordinds the image can appear to be 50' or more deep and extend out sideways the same or more with all the detail and dynamics and acoustic intact, a bit like nailing the venue onto the end of my room .

Ellisdj said he prefers a more focused sound soild sound with a warmer upper bass filling out the sound in a bit but he seemed in awe of my systems imaging and dynamic capabilty especially drums and the way they sounded so lifelike.

We then played some Cd's and he much prefered the sound instantly and was a lot more enthusiastic about everything, I do agree that Cd does sound better that spotify premuim but spotify is still very very good imo in fact it is more than good enough to listen music with out feeling I am missing anything substantial.

We then tried a cable change but as my system is fully balanced it was difficult to replace balanced interconnects with his lovely lookind and VERY expensive XLO rca cables , so we decided to remove my £7 AES/EBU interconnects between my Cd player transport to reclocker and reclocker to Dac because the have an RCA option.

I admit that I did hear a difference but for me there were more negatives than positives, there was to my ear a reduction in scale and the image shrunk more to the centre with less Depth of image but the sound was a little more focused in the centre and the upper bass fuller.

ellisdj definitely prefered the presentation with his cables fitted, I didn't but I can understand why he did.

We then changed a mains cable and decided to change the one to the pre-amp as it should have more influence there it was a very impressive looking beast with a feel and look of the very best quality and also very expensive.

This was not completely fair as I am already using some very very old but cheap to me second hand kimber mains lead that cost me about £30 so it was not the freebie in the box .

We both agreed that some of the space and imaging had returned but I must admit that to me I still prefered the sound of my original cables but ellisdj much prefered the sound with the mains cable installed.

We then played a varied selection of Cd's to get more of an idea of what was going on .

We then put the original cables back and listened again but it was very dificult to listen for changes we were both just enjoying the music and forgetting to do the critical listening or at least that was the impression I got from ellisdj.*smile*

After about what seemed to be a couple of hours but turned out to be five hours the music session came to an end due to other commitments, I think we could has kept on listening for another five hours if time had permitted !

Bearing in mind we had been listening at levels bettween 80 and 95db at the istening position most of the time there was zero listening fatique in fact I carried on listening after ellisdj had gone .

So in summary I think we both has a great deal of fun listening to good music, the test was far from scientific but I agree that the cables that ellisdj brought did make a difference to our ears it was just a matter of taste .

Would I spend that amount of money on cables ? No not in a million years !

But I may have to eat my words after I hear ellisdj's system *wink*.

I realise that there is not a lot of information for the purists here other than the fact I will be sticking to my cheaper cable.

The most important thing gained here is a new friend ( I hope*smile* ) and a thoroughly enjoyable day of listening had by all, I will endeavour to do more of this sort of thing in future .

 

 

 

 

 

brilliant! This is what hifi is all about.not cables or opinions but listening to music with a like minded person and making friends with them! This thread and it's conclusions is the best thread I have ever read...its a life affirming thread for a sometimes beleaguered hifi fan..such as myself.