Day of Testing Cheap Cables vs Expensive - write up as promised

[CnoEvil]

I would like to thank both Ellis and Electro for providing a little oasis of pleasure, in this otherwise barren forum (IMO).

It would appear that you both heard similar things, but have different views on what is preferable (as well as the subjective improvement that you get from spending considerable sums on cables).

 

[Blacksabbath25]

good write up electro very honest *smile*

 

[Thompsonuxb]

What does this mean?

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks to the two posters for their collective time.

Not sure if it concludes anything as, above most things, cables give such minimal returns.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Thanks to the two posters for their collective time.

Not sure if it concludes anything as, above most things, cables give such minimal returns.

if you think a minimal return is the difference between hearing a guitar and having a good guess whether it's a martin or a taylor or a takamine? Sounds big dividend for decent cables to me.

 

[BigH]

The truth is clear, known, and demonstrable. Whether people chose to believe it, is of course a matter for them.

Andy, I agree, subject of course to the the physics disclaimer. "Ye cannae change the laws of physics" being entirely wrong. What Scotty should have said is "Based on our current, and yet to be disproven understanding, that won't work" - never really going to be much of a catch phrase. As an engineer, I'm firmly in the science camp on this (hence my inexpensive cables). But I'm also human.

And here's where it get interesting because music reproduction, like photography is producing something through technology that invokes an emotional reaction. As scientists and engineers it's easy to consider the sound wave as the end result but surely the emotional reaction, deep within the brain is the end result - not the sound wave itself.

Now, if someone buys a new cable and in doing so hears an improvement, and by hear I don't mean their ear drum vibrates differently, I mean that within their brain they hear an improvement, regardless of which emotional processes contribute to said improvement, then is that any really less valid than any other?

Indeed, and this is what many of us who do have engineering backgrounds have pointed out on many occasions. You don't listen with your ears, you listen with your brain. The fact that you change your cables and are 100% sure you hear a difference is correct - you hear a difference. That doesn't mean to say that the sound coming from the speaker has changed in any way.

I think this is where the 'believers' fundamentally misunderstand the 'naysayers'. We all hear differences when we change things. I certainly do. New amp, new cables, whatever. Unlike 'believers', I am prepared to accept that the the sound has remained the same, but my perception of the sound has altered.

If an individual buys a cable which makes no sonic difference, but the individual hears a difference, then that's just great. What is not so great is advising others that they should also buy the cable to achieve the same perceived benefit - they may, they may not. I personally think it is much more defendable to explain the basics of the situation, why the change is unlikely to have the benefit claimed and perhaps encourage the individual to spend his money in areas that could make a real difference.

I think much of that is true. If you extend that to hearing music, the first time you hear a piece or music does it sound the same as the second or third times? Its the same music but the way we hear it maybe different. Ever played an album and not liked it the first time? Same with new hifi, takes you some time to adjust to a different sound. Its a pity that they could not do some ABX testing that would have maybe shown up if they could hear differences.

 

[TrevC]

Ellis wrote "Now with this Power cable was plugged in the sound got all its depth back"

Now that 100% proves you are mistaken. If only you had left that out, LOL. Power cables aren't in the signal path so can't affect the signal.

Also there shouldn't be a huge difference between Spotify premium and CD. You must be using a dodgy DAC.

Still, it's all good fun. Carry on.

 

[Al ears]

I would like to thank both Ellis and Electro for providing a little oasis of pleasure, in this otherwise barren forum (IMO).

It would appear that you both heard similar things, but have different views on what is preferable (as well as the subjective improvement that you get from spending considerable sums on cables).

Seconded. Something well worth reading for a change.

 

[Jota180]

Were you aware what cables were in when listening? If so then I'm going to have to politely discount your observations.

Ive seen blind tests where people didn't know and they couldn't tell.

 

[Dom]

I think we can agree that cables change the sound. I'm not saying that expensive cables are better though.

I have been messing with ferrite beads, after hours of tinkering I have found a place where it seems to improve the experience.

My USB 3 cable now has two TDK ferrite beads on it. I had to choose carefully through trail and error where to place them on the cable. I started with one in the center of the cable then two either side and went out taking the inner ones away. And found a place where it sounded most natural and gave the sound more focus, now the mids have more detail.

Its the best I have done so far with these ferrites. Usually having to take them off because it sounds wrong and not satisifying.

I think the end result is about enjoyment, if a more expensive cable provides that its valid.

 

[MajorFubar]

Great reading both contributors' summary of the exercise. Thanks for taking the time to post, both of you.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

I think we can agree that cables change the sound.

Can we?

 

[TrevC]

I think we can agree that cables change the sound. I'm not saying that expensive cables are better though.

I have been messing with ferrite beads, after hours of tinkering I have found a place where it seems to improve the experience.

My USB 3 cable now has two TDK ferrite beads on it. I had to choose carefully through trail and error where to place them on the cable. I started with one in the center of the cable then two either side and went out taking the inner ones away. And found a place where it sounded most natural and gave the sound more focus, now the mids have more detail.

Its the best I have done so far with these ferrites. Usually having to take them off because it sounds wrong and not satisifying.

I think the end result is about enjoyment, if a more expensive cable provides that its valid.

More voodoo nonsense. A ferrite on a cable will increase the inductance of a wire, but only enough to attenuate RF interference.

And no, a piece of wire won't affect the sound when used as an interconnect, let alone the absurd suggestion that mains cables can affect performance.

 

[BigH]

For me the question is are you better off spending on cables or would you be better to spend more on speakers or some other component in the system.

Apart from MA did you audition any other speakers?

 

[keeper of the quays]

I think we can agree that cables change the sound. I'm not saying that expensive cables are better though.

I have been messing with ferrite beads, after hours of tinkering I have found a place where it seems to improve the experience.

My USB 3 cable now has two TDK ferrite beads on it. I had to choose carefully through trail and error where to place them on the cable. I started with one in the center of the cable then two either side and went out taking the inner ones away. And found a place where it sounded most natural and gave the sound more focus, now the mids have more detail. 

Its the best I have done so far with these ferrites. Usually having to take them off because it sounds wrong and not satisifying.

I think the end result is about enjoyment, if a more expensive cable provides that its valid. 

 

More voodoo nonsense. A ferrite on a cable will increase the inductance of a wire, but only enough to attenuate RF interference.

And no, a piece of wire won't affect the sound when used as an interconnect, let alone the absurd suggestion that mains cables can affect performance. 

dude? How can you possibly know this..you can't hear a difference in your hifi..if from that fulsome list you kindly provided the other day? You listened to one of those set ups you mentioned..fair enough..wide range equipment..nice..is this what your referencing your views from? Regarding others opinions on their kit? Which you seem to hold in such low esteem?

 

[TrevC]

I think we can agree that cables change the sound. I'm not saying that expensive cables are better though.

I have been messing with ferrite beads, after hours of tinkering I have found a place where it seems to improve the experience.

My USB 3 cable now has two TDK ferrite beads on it. I had to choose carefully through trail and error where to place them on the cable. I started with one in the center of the cable then two either side and went out taking the inner ones away. And found a place where it sounded most natural and gave the sound more focus, now the mids have more detail.

Its the best I have done so far with these ferrites. Usually having to take them off because it sounds wrong and not satisifying.

I think the end result is about enjoyment, if a more expensive cable provides that its valid.

More voodoo nonsense. A ferrite on a cable will increase the inductance of a wire, but only enough to attenuate RF interference.

And no, a piece of wire won't affect the sound when used as an interconnect, let alone the absurd suggestion that mains cables can affect performance.

dude? How can you possibly know this..you can't hear a difference in your hifi..if from that fulsome list you kindly provided the other day? You listened to one of those set ups you mentioned..fair enough..wide range equipment..nice..is this what your referencing your views from? Regarding others opinions on their kit? Which you seem to hold in such low esteem?

Just telling it like it is. i don't expect the clueless to understand technical stuff and it has nothing to do with listening.

 

[drummerman]

Thanks to the two posters for their collective time.

Not sure if it concludes anything as, above most things, cables give such minimal returns.

... which could tip a system one way or the other.

Thats why cable choice matters imho.

It also means that some folks on here never get to hear their systems at their best (which doesn't matter if you're cloth eared like some. How you're doin' TrevC?)

 

[Dom]

Fair enough, I'm making mistakes. I will take off those ferrite beads.

 

[plastic penguin]

Thanks to the two posters for their collective time.

Not sure if it concludes anything as, above most things, cables give such minimal returns.

... which could tip a system one way or the other.

Thats why cable choice matters imho.

It also means that some folks on here never get to hear their systems at their best (which doesn't matter if you're cloth eared like some. How you're doin' TrevC?)

Perhaps. But let's put this into context: Electros system is worth mega bucks so maybe the difference is very audible. However, with modest systems like mine (and yours) not sure the improvement will be that obvious.

When I upgraded my speaker cables recently, the uplift was subtle at best.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol.....the sense of bewilderment in this thread.....

Ok, so both electro and ellisdj heard the same thing - personal preferences to one side.

Subtle differences with the swapping of a cable but with a substantial impact with regards one's enjoyment of the music.

Both give a very similar testimony to events. Yet some continue with 'its in the mind' others with '
they all sound the same' no one yet as come out with 'told you so....'.

If they had disagreed about the differences -both ends of the debate still intact we'd have something to argue.....but this?

What now?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Naaaah, c'mon electro, seriously did you hear a difference?

Stop with the politeness and the lovely dovey it was such a good day....Stop messing about!

Did you hear differences when the cable was swapped?

 

[expat_mike]

Fair enough, I'm making mistakes. I will take off those ferrite beads.

Ferrite beads are designed to remove RF interference, usually from usb cables - so that is a valid application. Shop bought usb cables normally only have one ferrite bead, positioned near one end of the cable.

If you talk about using more than two (one at each end of the cable), and experimenting with their positions, to optimise the sound quality, you will inevitably find that some people on this forum will question your sanity.

In contrast if you read other forums, like this one about the chord mojo http://www.head-fi.org/newsearch/?advanced=1&byuser=&containingthread%5B0%5D=784602&newer=1&output=posts&resultSortingPreference=recency&sdate=0&search=rf+interference&type=all&start=25 , there are regular discussions about how to remove RF interference, all conducted in a civil and friendly manner.

The importance of removing RF interference in order to maximise the sound quality is discussed in several posts (eg posts 30 and 47) in this thread about the 2qute dac http://www.head-fi.org/t/749582/chord-electronics-2qute-dac-announced/45 .

So removing RF interference is important, but it can be achieved simply and cheaply with just a couple of ferrite beads.

 

[MajorFubar]

Fair enough, I'm making mistakes. I will take off those ferrite beads.

We can prove or disprove their effectiveness very quickly and irrefutably because we're talking about digital. All you need to do is capture two digital recordings, one with and one without the ferrites, and check if they null each other to silence when you invert the phase of one. I'm guessing they will. Which would mean they are identical.

I don't trust my ears to be able to discern such differences accurately. I was convinced the rips from my iMac's built-in drive and a cheap USB drive sounded different until I proved it was proposterous, just like I really knew it was. So I know how unreliable ears are.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Naaaah, c'mon electro, seriously did you hear a difference?

Stop with the politeness and the lovely dovey it was such a good day....Stop messing about!

Did you hear differences when the cable was swapped?

I heard a difference when I swopped over interconnects between power amp and pre amp you would of heard it too..and Dave would have heard it and Mr trev would heard it as well but explained it away as it doesn't suit his long held belief..whether one prefers this difference is another matter? If you listen to one hifi for a long time it's going to have to be night and day to change ones view! Maybe impossible if you really like the sound you have...

 

[ellisdj]

Been out of signal all day so just catching up. Thanks to electro for writing the truth a hifi friend yes mate I hope so too.

Electro only heard but a brief taste of my taste in my sound presentation. He needs to come and hear it 100% not 15% makes a big difference . That will explain my comments more hopefully and may convert him. We all get used to a sound and think it's right, but that doesn't mean it is or is 100% right.

I am now really looking forward to this so I can show him how I apply my trade. I think he will be surprised or won't be expecting it to be as is.

I have a few of his test cds on their way to me. The music we listened to was a little safe in selection even though varied. That won't be the case when you come here.
Come and hear how big a small system by comparison can sound

Had a great day buddy looking forward to the next one.