Mains Blocks / Conditioners / Regenerators

[andyjm]

If some people believe that the difference is clearly audible i.e. that the mains block 'squashes the dynamics' out of the sound then surely the output from the amp, with and without, can be scoped and the difference, if any, observed and recorded?

If it can be heard then it can be measured. Simply posting "technical" quotes from other websites is not in any way proof or anything like it. Anyone could write reams of pseudo technical bull and call it a white paper or anything else for that matter and put it on their site.

Regarding proof, surely the onus of proof is on those claiming that their device does something that science regards as not possible? It's like being asked to prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist rather than the other way around.

I have in the past posted technical descriptions of how linear power supplies work, how the mains supplies AVERAGE power to an amplifier, and how transients and dynamics are all supplied by the reservoir capacitors within a power supply and not the mains. In short, how mains supplies do not effect amplifier dynamics.

I have also posted links to software which allows accurate before and after comparisons to be made for exactly this situation - "does the sound of my system change when I substitute a mains filter?" (or similar).

I note that many of the posters on this thread were also posters on previous threads where I have explained this. I can only assume they didn't read my posts, I wasn't clear or they didn't understand them as the same questions are doing the rounds again.

For those with a genuine interest in the underlying concepts, google can bring a wealth of answers. Or failing that, try:

http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm

 

[ifor]

The arrogance of some is astounding! Most forumites, and I'm one of them, probably don't understand much of the science. Why we should be expected to believe everything posted by some bod, with a degree in electronics, who we don't know from Adam rather than something written by another electronics engineer elsewhere on the interweb is beyond me. In one post we're told that posting links to other sources of information is "not proof" (I accept that), but in the next post we're advised to google for a greater understanding!

I prefer to hear from people with experience of the various bits of kit available. I tend to be able to understand them. BTW, I too have a degree, but there's much, much more I don't know about by subject than I do.

 

[CnoEvil]

If I am talking BS, then please explain

- Why do quite a few brands of amplifier recommend you do not use mains conditioners

- Why do the better designs of conditioner have high current sockets for power amps

- Why do they rate their products with the max Amps / Watts they can deliver

- Why would Furman bother building in extra current reserves to handle the extreme peaks

- Why do Atlas leave one unfiltered socket, on their otherwise filtered distribution EOS power strips, for high current devices.

Maybe it's all an industry wide cynical conspiracy, to fool the gullible, and build in unnecessary cost.....the fact it has an effect, I suppose is neither here nor there......but to know that you have to go and try it.

 

[pauln]

The arrogance of some is astounding! Most forumites, and I'm one of them, probably don't understand much of the science. Why we should be expected to believe everything posted by some bod, with a degree in electronics, who we don't know from Adam rather than something written by another electronics engineer elsewhere on the interweb is beyond me. In one post we're told that posting links to other sources of information is "not proof" (I accept that), but in the next post we're advised to google for a greater understanding!

I prefer to hear from people with experience of the various bits of kit available. I tend to be able to understand them. BTW, I too have a degree, but there's much, much more I don't know about by subject than I do.

The gullibility of some is astounding!

But then it always has been, there have always been people that are easily taken in by smooth talking salesmen selling hair restorer, interconnects with astonishing properties and indeed actual snake oil. Professional con men can make a good living off the gullibility of some people, essentially because those people "want" to believe. Then there is another group of people that don't believe anything that anyone tells them and a large group of people in the middle who use a bit of common sense. All three groups are represented here on this forum!

The advertising standards people have already clamped down on the far-fetched pseudo scientific claims of some manufacturers - does this not tend to make you think that the claims of some other manufacturers may be suspect? Especially when those claims seem to contradict accepted scientific principals; and I mean those that you would find in a physics text book, not those made by some bloke on the internet even though that "bloke" may have taken those principals from a text book.

 

[MakkaPakka]

To be fair some of the stuff quoted from other sites looks like pure drivel.

I'm no electrician but I know my cooker pulls up to 3kw if I fire everything up. I also have a dehumidifier and a fridge freezer running complete with their 'noisy' compressors, not to mention the boiler too.

The TV does not flicker, the picture is not degraded, my lights work fine. Everything works fine with all these things running.

Despite all that, my mains is somehow not going to be up to the job of supplying the power to an amp that uses no more than a few hundred watts and so I absolutely must buy some expensive gadgetry. Hmmm

 

[audioaffair]

It is completely subjective - in a good balanced system, mains blocks can certainly add 'something' extra in the mix, also on a not so well matched system, it can totally alter the characteristics too!

We sell a couple of these by different manufactures, and customers generally report good things, whithout me being too brand specific.

 

[cheeseboy]

It is completely subjective - in a good balanced system, mains blocks can certainly add 'something' extra in the mix, also on a not so well matched system, it can totally alter the characteristics too!

We sell a couple of these by different manufactures, and customers generally report good things, whithout me being too brand specific.

in fariness you're not exactly without interest in all of this are you? I mean it's not like you're going to come on the what hifi forums and tell people those main conditioners they've just bought are actually a crock of crap are you now? (tongue in cheek btw)

 

[TrevC]

I suspect, but could be wrong, that there are a couple of people here who know a little about the subject, but think they know it all.

Listening to the products in question is a good start......... :doh:

I have listened to the mains via an attenuator. It goes hummmmmmmmm

 

[Sir Lemon]

It is completely subjective - in a good balanced system, mains blocks can certainly add 'something' extra in the mix, also on a not so well matched system, it can totally alter the characteristics too!
We sell a couple of these by different manufactures, and customers generally report good things, whithout me being too brand specific.

Hi Nick,

I would be interested in hearing your comments on products that you know/sell that are not susceptible to mains effects of any sort and thus completely immune to AC related "upgrades."

Also, I see you're selling Audio Arts gear, but I can't seem to find the Mono II amps on the site, can you please let me know what they are selling for?

Thanks,
Adrian

 

[TrevC]

If I am talking BS, then please explain

- Why do quite a few brands of amplifier recommend you do not use mains conditioners

- Why do the better designs of conditioner have high current sockets for power amps

- Why do they rate their products with the max Amps / Watts they can deliver

- Why would Furman bother building in extra current reserves to handle the extreme peaks

- Why do Atlas leave one unfiltered socket, on their otherwise filtered distribution EOS power strips, for high current devices.

Maybe it's all an industry wide cynical conspiracy, to fool the gullible, and build in unnecessary cost.....the fact it has an effect, I suppose is neither here nor there......but to know that you have to go and try it.

If there's a market for something somebody will fill it. The homeopathy industry is an example of that. BTW I'm not saying that mains filtering is always pointless, I made my own so I could listen to short wave radio with less interference. It worked, so yes I've tried it. Never ever heard even so much as a pop from the hifi though.

 

[TrevC]

The arrogance of some is astounding! Most forumites, and I'm one of them, probably don't understand much of the science. Why we should be expected to believe everything posted by some bod, with a degree in electronics, who we don't know from Adam rather than something written by another electronics engineer elsewhere on the interweb is beyond me. In one post we're told that posting links to other sources of information is "not proof" (I accept that), but in the next post we're advised to google for a greater understanding!

I prefer to hear from people with experience of the various bits of kit available. I tend to be able to understand them. BTW, I too have a degree, but there's much, much more I don't know about by subject than I do.

You don't have to believe me. I don't really care whether you do or not.

 

[professorhat]

You don't have to believe me. I don't really care whether you do or not.

And yet you find the time to post short comments about how stupid people are on every mains thread ever started here. Have to agree with matt49 - if you want to convince people, perhaps more informative posts would help. But if you actually don't care, why do you post so much? I don't really care that thousands of people in the UK believe in homeopathy, but I also don't feel the need to go on their forums and tell them what idiots they all are. It would be a fairly fruitless exercise (especially if I also provided no evidence as to why I thought they were all wrong) and I know my time could be better spent.

 

[Sospri]

Do you not think that HI FI companies that spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on R&D would have twigged to spend an extra couple of quid on a circuit would make their amplifiers sound magically better would have done so.

No because it doesen't

.Iin fact quality manufacturers recommend no mains filtering or conditioners be used, because it has a detrimental effect.

Who do I believe, the companies who actually manufacter HI Fi, or a few know it alls on here,

Errr let me think.................

 

[a91gti]

I know the answer!

Lets all go listen to some music and enjoy it.

 

[DocG]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

 

[Covenanter]

If I am talking BS, then please explain

- Why do quite a few brands of amplifier recommend you do not use mains conditioners

- Why do the better designs of conditioner have high current sockets for power amps

- Why do they rate their products with the max Amps / Watts they can deliver

- Why would Furman bother building in extra current reserves to handle the extreme peaks

- Why do Atlas leave one unfiltered socket, on their otherwise filtered distribution EOS power strips, for high current devices.

Maybe it's all an industry wide cynical conspiracy, to fool the gullible, and build in unnecessary cost.....the fact it has an effect, I suppose is neither here nor there......but to know that you have to go and try it.

Yep I think it's all hype to get people to buy stuff. I don't think it's a conspiracy where people sit down and connive to fool customers. It's just something that people are happy to allow to develop because mystique can add to the attractiveness of products. The hifi industry is not unique in this regard.

Chris

 

[ifor]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

+1

 

[andyjm]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

+1

Mains as it departs the substation has no DC offset, transformers can't pass DC.

However a combination of transmission line resitance and asymmetic loading of the mains waveform can cause a DC offset to develop. I have never seen it myself, but apparently light dimmers, thyristor power controls, motor speed controls in a modern house can cause an offset to develop under extreme circumstances.

Transformers don't like a DC offset as it can cause the core to saturate. This can cause the laminations to vibrate, leading to the transformer buzzing, grumbling or humming depending on how you describe it. It will not effect the tranformer output in a material way, but can be annoying.

The way to fix it is to remove the offset. Either go to the source of the problem (which might not be under your control), get a transformer where the laminations don't vibrate, or clean the mains up. Filters wont do it, but an isolating transformer will.

 

[TrevC]

You don't have to believe me. I don't really care whether you do or not.

And yet you find the time to post short comments about how stupid people are on every mains thread ever started here. Have to agree with matt49 - if you want to convince people, perhaps more informative posts would help. But if you actually don't care, why do you post so much? I don't really care that thousands of people in the UK believe in homeopathy, but I also don't feel the need to go on their forums and tell them what idiots they all are. It would be a fairly fruitless exercise (especially if I also provided no evidence as to why I thought they were all wrong) and I know my time could be better spent.

Please find the post where I described someone as stupid, and I will unconditionally apologise.

 

[TrevC]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

+1

Mains as it departs the substation has no DC offset, transformers can't pass DC.

However a combination of transmission line resitance and asymmetic loading of the mains waveform can cause a DC offset to develop. I have never seen it myself, but apparently light dimmers, thyristor power controls, motor speed controls in a modern house can cause an offset to develop under extreme circumstances.

Transformers don't like a DC offset as it can cause the core to saturate. This can cause the laminations to vibrate, leading to the transformer buzzing, grumbling or humming depending on how you describe it. It will not effect the tranformer output in a material way, but can be annoying.

The way to fix it is to remove the offset. Either go to the source of the problem (which might not be under your control), get a transformer where the laminations don't vibrate, or clean the mains up. Filters wont do it, but an isolating transformer will.

Toroids are especially prone to buzzing in that way, but a DC blocker will fix it. It's a simple thing to make if you have the ability. Cicuit below.

 

[dangalf]

In the time it's taken me to read this thread I reckon I could've gone out, bought a mains conditioner, taken it home and tested it. Could have had my own opinion then :cheer:

 

[BigH]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

Yes why did that one humm and the others did not?

Anyway hes replaced it with one that the phono stage does not work.

 

[DocG]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

+1

Mains as it departs the substation has no DC offset, transformers can't pass DC.

However a combination of transmission line resitance and asymmetic loading of the mains waveform can cause a DC offset to develop. I have never seen it myself, but apparently light dimmers, thyristor power controls, motor speed controls in a modern house can cause an offset to develop under extreme circumstances.

Transformers don't like a DC offset as it can cause the core to saturate. This can cause the laminations to vibrate, leading to the transformer buzzing, grumbling or humming depending on how you describe it. It will not effect the tranformer output in a material way, but can be annoying.

The way to fix it is to remove the offset. Either go to the source of the problem (which might not be under your control), get a transformer where the laminations don't vibrate, or clean the mains up. Filters wont do it, but an isolating transformer will.

Another question (which may reveal my ignorance, but there it is): is this hum/buzz/grumble the same thing as I notice using a dimmer for the light switch? Or is that something completely different? Or the same result from a different cause?

(I never had a humming amplifier, so I can't compare...).

 

[DocG]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

Yes why did that one humm and the others did not?

Anyway hes replaced it with one that the phono stage does not work.

I for one would definitely prefer the latter, as I don't have a TT!

 

[TrevC]

Could we return to the issue that generated this thread, stevebrock's problem with a humming Rega Elicit R. Several (in my view knowledgeable) forumites have pointed to a mains problem, rather than an inherent problem with the amp. A mains problem that could be overcome with a mains filter.

What is happening here, that makes the amp hum? And what can you expect a filter to do? Filter out the hum, I suppose... :?

+1

Mains as it departs the substation has no DC offset, transformers can't pass DC.

However a combination of transmission line resitance and asymmetic loading of the mains waveform can cause a DC offset to develop. I have never seen it myself, but apparently light dimmers, thyristor power controls, motor speed controls in a modern house can cause an offset to develop under extreme circumstances.

Transformers don't like a DC offset as it can cause the core to saturate. This can cause the laminations to vibrate, leading to the transformer buzzing, grumbling or humming depending on how you describe it. It will not effect the tranformer output in a material way, but can be annoying.

The way to fix it is to remove the offset. Either go to the source of the problem (which might not be under your control), get a transformer where the laminations don't vibrate, or clean the mains up. Filters wont do it, but an isolating transformer will.

Another question (which may reveal my ignorance, but there it is): is this hum/buzz/grumble the same thing as I notice using a dimmer for the light switch? Or is that something completely different? Or the same result from a different cause?

(I never had a humming amplifier, so I can't compare...).

DC on the mains can cause the transformer inside the amp to buzz, hum through the speakers is something else entirely.