Mains Blocks / Conditioners / Regenerators

[pauln]

How did you know I always soak my mains cables in vinegar for an hour before listening? It stops them choking the music.

Chris

malt or white? or do they give different tonal differences?

Red wine vinegar for orchestral music and white wine vinegar for chamber music. Balsamic vinegar brings a certain something to choral works and I suggest malt vinegar for anything "pop" oriented.

Chris

PS Cleaning the cables afterwards is a real pain but my ears can't be deceiving me can they?

PPS I'd do a blind test but I think the smell would give it away.

So cider vinegar for the Wurzels then?

 

[Covenanter]

How did you know I always soak my mains cables in vinegar for an hour before listening? It stops them choking the music.

Chris

malt or white? or do they give different tonal differences?

Red wine vinegar for orchestral music and white wine vinegar for chamber music. Balsamic vinegar brings a certain something to choral works and I suggest malt vinegar for anything "pop" oriented.

Chris

PS Cleaning the cables afterwards is a real pain but my ears can't be deceiving me can they?

PPS I'd do a blind test but I think the smell would give it away.

So cider vinegar for the Wurzels then?

This could run and run!

Chris

 

[jimbo20004000]

I stumbled across this thread, and ended up reading through all posts and I think i can put this whole subject to bed once and for all.

I gained a Masters degree in Electrical and Electonic Engineering in the early 1990's, plus have about 20 years experience in digital and analogue electronics design. Most of the course is basically circuit theory and maths.

What no one has mentioned is power supply impedance, and noise. Basically the lower the impedance and noise/distortion the amplifier or source component see's, the better!

All these mains filters do via capacitor and inductor networks is to help lower mains noise, but this then adds more impedance to the supply. In effect slowing down the supply of power per unit of time.

You can put a VDR across the supply lines to help trap voltage spikes. Though modern circuit breakers in consumer units should trip before any high power spikes cause damage.

When you step down from mains voltage to maybe 20 volts ac, it does not magically remove any noise or distortion of the AC waveform. You can clearly see the noise using an oscilloscope. The smoothing capacitors reduce the noise floor. Better spec capacitors have faster recovery and lower noise component.

If the mains supply (which should officially now be 230v AC, but generally floats around 240 to 250V !!) has problems such as phase distortion/voltage spikes and noise on the power line,, then only online double conversion technology can provide protection against this or harmonic (distortion) problems.

Ideally wire a separate mains circuit for your Hifi, and use good earthing. If your mains supply is poor ,then yes a mains regenerator is likley to help matters. But it really needs resolving at source. Speak to your energy supplier or an electrician if the issue is internal.

Something like Power Inspired's AG500 AC ReGenerator is a double conversion system that provides a stable and clean Pure Sinewave Output of 230V. (<3%THD linear load <2% typ). The lower noise floor of the supply will make Audio sound better, with more low level information which would normally be masked by a higher noise floor from the 0V level. Video can look better as the noise level is lower, so picture will look cleaner.

In addition you will get less hum and buzz from the transformers if fed from a clean supply, as it is doing the voltage conversion more efficiently.

In a linear power supply the capacitors store energy and basically smooth out the ac ripple to give a Direct Current. You can then use voltage regulation etc to help improve matters. The more energy storage you have the better the amplifier can cope with sudden peak transients such as an explosion in a movie or a bass drum. But capacitors and other component quality dictates how low the noise floor will be in the audio signal, and also the speed of recovery, and speed of power delivery. Switched Mode PSU is another subject, and a poorly designed one can introduce its own noise and distortion issues.

Companies such as Naim provide dedicated power supplies which are basically a huge bank of capacitors for energy storage and noise removal.

You also have Voltage source and current source with respect to whether you are using transistor or valve amplification, but thats another story.

By the way a valve is much more linear with lower distortion than a transisitor, which is why transistors have to reply on feedback to keep the circuit stable. A well designed triode valve amp with no feedback tends to sound better than a transistor based amp, as it has lower distortion. Something like the Borderpatrol valve power Amps are excellent examples.

 

[drummerman]

Its an interesting topic and I'm sure will be re-surrected again and again.

I am well aware what a good regulated power supply can do, using a couple of PSX-R's and I also have Tacimas in front of both my systems.

Whilst audible 'benefits' are somewhat system and mains dependant, I can say that to these large but oldish ears they (Tacimas) certainly have no detrimental effect, quite the opposite.

We suffer from sporadic mains fluctuations and I've burnt out my good quality soldering iron element before. I now only use it through a surge protector and touch wood, so far so good.

The Tacimas offer some protection and peace of mind for little money. Whats not to like?

regards

 

[andyjm]

Jimbo,

I read through your post, but I am afraid I struggled to see the point you were making.

What is it that you have put to bed?

 

[basshound]

@ andyjm

What is your opinion of the AG500 or indeed its bigger brother the AG1500 power regenerators mentioned earlier ? What would be the benefits (if any ) of getting one of these for my system ?

 

[Sospri]

Jimbo,

I read through your post, but I am afraid I struggled to see the point you were making.

What is it that you have put to bed?

+1

 

[Native_bon]

I tried a Tacima on my system, and as cno says "squashed the dynamics out of the amp"............

Well of course it didn't. What nonsense.

I use the TACIMA as well, even plugged my amp straight into the wall but did not noctice any difference or any Squashed effect.. Again this may be system dependent.

 

[jimbo20004000]

I use an AG500 myself for my source components such as the Oppo BDP105, Meridian 861 pre-amp, valve headphone amp, and even my Virgin Tivo box. Its benefits made technical sense, and it was on offer at the time, so i bought one, as it said i could return it for refund if i was not happy. It did what i expected, which was to lower the noise floor, and there was an overall improvement in sound and picture quality. Plus it provides protection and isolation from the mains, providing a continuous 230V. So was a no brainer for me, as it made the biggest difference for the least money.

listening to FLAC files through my valve headphone amp and Audeze LCD3's i heard an immediate improvement. Was quite impressed really.

It was also immedfiately obvious how much cleaner the picture looked on my Panasonic plasma and JVC projector, simply by plugging the Tivo into the AG500. The heavily compressed video and audio on Virgin or Sky needs all the help it can get!

I may get an AG1500 so i can also run my PMC active speakers. Though it is possible with some amplifiers it will reduce the dynamics and max spl if there is insufficient power supply energy storage, and you are listening at high levels. Some will hear benefits such as improved bass response as well as the lower noise floor.

It would expect it to make an improvement to your Moon300D Dac and ATC-CA2 Pre. No point connecting a laptop to it, as the laptop PSU itself generates loads of noise, and the Dac accepts asynchronous input, so does not reply on the poor accuracy of the clock in the laptop, which would result in timing errors (jitter).

Your ATC P1 Power Amp draws 600VA max so you would have to try the AG1500. The P1 is an excellent amplifier for the money. I used to have a full ATC 100ASL active system. Without looking at the internal design it is difficult to guess whether it would make an overall improvement, or would have issues with supplying immediate power for peak audio transients.

 

[andyjm]

In the UK, the mains supply is pretty good, with stable frequency, low noise and good voltage stability. That is not true the world over, and I could imagine that a device like an AG500 could be worthwhile in stituations where the mains is iffy.

I am skeptical that this approach will reduce the noise floor in a UK environment. The mains is pretty good, and in addition the AG500 isn't noise free - its innards are effectively a large class D amplifer chopping up DC to generate a synthetic sine wave.

A properly designed linear power supply in an amplifier is an excellent noise filter, what little noise gets through the transformer gets filtered by the storage capacitors - so my guess is that absent dreadful mains, that this product would make no difference.

All of this is easy to test. Turn the volume up on your amp with no source signal - can you hear snap crackle and pop? Yes, then it might be worth experimenting with some form of mains filter, no, then spend your money on something else

 

[jimbo20004000]

The AG500 or 1500 is not a mains filter. Trying to measure noise by reducing output attenuation, is simply highlighting the internally generated noise from the internal electronics and power supply; and not necessarilly from the mains. You can run a pre amp from a battery, and you will still hear noise on the output.

Yes the AG500 uses a DC to AC inverter to generate a pure sign wave. I measured only 1.8% THD noise from the AG500. The output is not only stable at 230VAC, but of a very high quality sine wave, driven by a low impedance IGBT inverter, capable of delivering peak bursts of power and digitally controlled thousands of times per second to maintain the pure sinusoidal waveform.

Single phase mains supply is indeed generally pretty good. Voltage varies by approx 10 volts where i live. Though there are many older properties which have poor earthing, which affects the noise floor, and sound quality; especially the bass response.

The AG500 provides protection against mains voltage variations, harmonic distortion, noisy mains, transients, surges and complete mains black outs. It eliminates DC offset issues, and completley isolates the mains, which helps protect my expensive source equipment. I did not buy one just for the potential sound quality benefits.

It depends on how well designed and the quality of electronics in a source, amplifier etc, as to whether the AG500 will improve matters. Some systems it will likely make no percievable difference, especially where the mains supply is of high quality.

You can add capacitance in the PSU to reduce ripple noise, but that also can increase ESR.

At the low end there are some poorly designed internal power supplies out there, which would benefit from mprovements such as lower noise components, voltage regulation, low ESR capacitors to reduce power supply impedance (ESR), Schottky rectifiers to provide high speed and zero recovery time, use of low noise regulators, bypassed with audio grade capacitors. The list goes on. That is why companies such as audiocom international offer internal upgrades.

They give a money back guaranatee, so i personally had nothing to loose. It is good to be sceptical though. That is why i listen to components myself and make my own mind up. Best to let people decide for themselves. It made an obvious difference in my system, and you only have to read the feedback on the internet from using this product. I would have sent it back if i was not happy.

It will also stop annoying buzzing from an amplifiers power supply transformer.

I'd recommend the AG1500 over the 500 for power amps due to higher power consumption but also the ability of the AG1500 to drive more instantaneous power.

For example: http://headmania.org/2013/09/02/power-inspired-ag500-power-regenerator-review/

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Oh no, Jimbo2000400 you went and killed this thread dead......... :rofl:

And I agree, the cleaner the supply the better your equ performs - many constantly see an electrical signal as seperate parts and not as an electrical supply that when presented the equ then breaks down into its various parts - its like seeing water has H20 (its composition) and not water if you know what I mean?

Guess it ran its course and I missed it, suprised it was not deleted

 

[andyjm]

And I agree, the cleaner the supply the better your equ performs

Thompson,

Good to have you back.

At the limit, everything makes a difference. A butterfly flapping its wings in the himalayas will make a difference if your testing equipment is sensitive enough.

I am afraid that this is the angle that many of the 'add on' sellers use. "Well, of course it reduces RF in the MHz range", "A siginificant reduction in DC offset on the mains" and so on and so on.

The question is, does it effect the performance of your equipment in a way which is audible. For this to be true, the end effect needs to be in the audio band, and make a sufficient amplitude difference that your ears can detect it.

For 'magic mains cables' regenerators and such like, always good to check if you have a problem first. My 'turn it up and listen' test does just that. With no source active, turn the volume up and listen. No amp is noise free, there are thermal effects producing noise in the components but this will be a white noise shooshing sound. No mains filter is going to change that. Its the other stuff, the snap crackle and pop, the cellphone like buzzing sound - thats where a good mains filter MAY make a difference if the noise is coming down the mains cable (if you have airborne RFI its just as likely to come down the speaker cable). If you don't have any random noise or buzzing, then no amount of filtering or regeneration will make things better. Most amps are very good at rejecting mains noise (it is very easy and cheap to do), so it is most likely that you dont need anything.

 

[Singslinger]

Two years ago I invested in a PS Audio P-10 power regenerator. It was a fantastic upgrade and I would highly recommend it.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

The question should be pointed at Cyrus amp owners who have the PSX unit and can compare it with the standard power chord directly. Has these should have no affect on the performance on their amps and are not cheap.