Mains Regeneration...

[TrevC]

How about a test?

if someone went to visit gazzip and was able to switch between power supplies (should be much easier than most tests, as volume matching won't be an issue) and he could tell which was which when listening for 3 minutes and could reliably repeat this 10 times, then I would be convinced.

similarly, the manufacturers could presumably put an oscilloscope or data logger on the dc output of an amp power supply and show the difference.

otherwise it's just bickering?

You don't need a test, only a bit of basic electronics knowledge. Then you wouldn't waste your time listening for differences in sound that cannot possibly exist.

I think a test would put this subject to bed forever. If the OP was able to identify the difference that would be the end of this argument and many like it, if not he would have wasted his money AND proved the epectation bias theory to betrue

I'm thinking about the pigeon and chess board analogy.

 

[ellisdj]

Because you cant TrevC - give up on this one and take it on the chin.

Either your ears are reliable or they are not, not just when it suits you.

I know for a fact the ears are not reliable one bit at bass freq's and therefore know how to test this. You should have been able to show me this very easy TrevC

 

[TrevC]

Because you cant TrevC - give up on this one and take it on the chin.

Either your ears are reliable or they are not, not just when it suits you.

I know for a fact the ears are not reliable one bit at bass freq's and therefore know how to test this. You should have been able to show me this very easy TrevC

My ears are clearly superior to yours.

 

[Gazzip]

How about a test?

if someone went to visit gazzip and was able to switch between power supplies (should be much easier than most tests, as volume matching won't be an issue) and he could tell which was which when listening for 3 minutes and could reliably repeat this 10 times, then I would be convinced.

similarly, the manufacturers could presumably put an oscilloscope or data logger on the dc output of an amp power supply and show the difference.

otherwise it's just bickering?

The incredible sulk has had a sleep and feels much better this morning.

The first test would be interesting with the only fly in the ointment being that it would take an hour to swap power supplies given that my system is buried deep in to a custom made recess. I would have to unbuild, rebuild and re-rack out in the open and then put the whole lot back again. Not impossible but to be done on a day when the wife and kids are away. Let me think on that one...

The second test you suggest is once again amplifiercentric, an all too familiar direction taken by the naysayer brigade. Tiny voltage fluctuations will "get through" the rectification and filtering electronics of any power amplifier's AC to DC stage. This slight ripple is however going to be no worse than the "noise" that the rectification process has itself added to that "smooth" (not so TrevC - it is NOT smooth) DC output, so to a certain extent I am not interested in the amp.

I consider that the damage is being done (and this is where the regenerator/conditioner comes in to its own) where much, much smaller voltages can have a much greater effect. That ripple entering entering a DAC's oscillator and associated circuitry could conceivably be doing far more damage to the audio signal. Unfortunately as with 27% of the mass of the universe, "jitter" although widely accepted as existing, is theoretical non-measurable and therefore unprovable.

"...Ahh!..." I hear you cry, "...Forget the amp then! If what you say is true then the manufacturers could pick up any deviation in the DC output signal from the DAC using an oscilloscope! You lose!...". Not so I'm afraid. You see the levels of signal accuracy/error we are discussing here are so low as to be practically unmeasurable by equipment. Only the human ear is good enough to pick these anomalies up. Let me give you an example:

The US military have for years been trying to develop Electronic Counter Measure (ECM) devices to detect an incoming attacker before they detect you, but they can't beat the human ear. They can for directionality (ECM 1 degree of directional accuracy vs human ear 5 degree) but not for an "incoming" signals loudness or frequency. Something to do with us having primarily evolved for self-defence purposes so being highly attuned in this regard. The human ear is 50 x more sensitive to frequency change and a staggering 32 million times more sensitive to changes in signal strength.

So you see you are going to have to trust us on this one. Put your instruments away, because you cannot measure what we are talking about, and trust your ears, the most sensitive instrument there is for incoming sound. Believe me you will be rewarded.

 

[Native_bon]

How about a test?

if someone went to visit gazzip and was able to switch between power supplies (should be much easier than most tests, as volume matching won't be an issue) and he could tell which was which when listening for 3 minutes and could reliably repeat this 10 times, then I would be convinced.

similarly, the manufacturers could presumably put an oscilloscope or data logger on the dc output of an amp power supply and show the difference.

otherwise it's just bickering?

All that needs to be said has been said, just that no one listens. If you given dacs, amps within a price range do you think you can tell which is which, and which sounds better?. You have to do a blind test on boxes first. If you do succeed then only should it apply to cables.

 

[muljao]

If someone wants to spend money on anything that makes them enjoy their chosen hobby, it does not matter what others think. Disrespecting peoples choices is the cause of a lot of problems in this world we live

 

[TrevC]

Tiny voltage fluctuations will "get through" the rectification and filtering electronics of any power amplifier's AC to DC stage. This slight ripple is however going to be no worse than the "noise" that the rectification process has itself added to that "smooth" (not so TrevC - it is NOT smooth) DC output, so to a certain extent I am not interested in the amp.

The same would also be true using your regenerated mains supply of course. You would still have the same rectifier noise, not actually a problem because they always have small capacitors across them to suppress the switching harmonics. You will also still have the tiny ramp waveform as the capacitors charge and discharge the amplitude of which depends on the capacitor values used and the drain of the amplifier. I would argue that both are inaudible, which can easily be proved using your golden ears close to the speaker. Hear a 100Hz hum? Of course you don't.

 

[CnoEvil]

The incredible sulk has had a sleep and feels much better this morning.

I'm delighted to hear it.

Rest assured, you are in good company. There are still a few loons left who've actually tried this mains stuff, before forming an opinion....and deluded as we are, hear a difference (for good or bad).

 

[ellisdj]

CNo - sometimes its bad because it shows up another flaw in the setup. ( i.e dont give up on this route of improvement - the benefit is there)

This has happened to me a lot, make some changes, move a few steps back initially, work out what it is, fix it, then move 5 steps forward.

However most people dont go into it as much as me - they just accept what they get which is never good enough in my experience / my eyes

 

[Andrewjvt]

CNo - sometimes its bad because it shows up another flaw in the setup. ( i.e dont give up on this route of improvement - the benefit is there)

This has happened to me a lot, make some changes, move a few steps back initially, work out what it is, fix it, then move 5 steps forward.

However most people dont go into it as much as me - they just accept what they get which is never good enough in my experience / my eyes 

Ive spent thousands on top kef ref speakers and top class amps. It sounds great...

Then ive added special cables.. it sounds even better

Then..

Ive added a power cable. Even better

Then power regen

Even better.

And so on...

Now how bad would it sound if you removed all these componants???

It cant just get better and better

 

[Gazzip]

CNo - sometimes its bad because it shows up another flaw in the setup. ( i.e dont give up on this route of improvement - the benefit is there)

This has happened to me a lot, make some changes, move a few steps back initially, work out what it is, fix it, then move 5 steps forward.

However most people dont go into it as much as me - they just accept what they get which is never good enough in my experience / my eyes

Ive spent thousands on top kef ref speakers and top class amps. It sounds great...

Then ive added special cables.. it sounds even better

Then..

Ive added a power cable. Even better

Then power regen

Even better.

And so on...

Now how bad would it sound if you removed all these componants???

It cant just get better and better

Why can't something get better and better as you progessively eliminate weaknesses? Of course it can.

There will come a point that the law of diminishing returns prevents any significant improvement achieved being worth the financial outlay, but that is down to the personal subjectivity of what "worth" means.

 

[Andrewjvt]

CNo - sometimes its bad because it shows up another flaw in the setup. ( i.e dont give up on this route of improvement - the benefit is there)

This has happened to me a lot, make some changes, move a few steps back initially, work out what it is, fix it, then move 5 steps forward.

However most people dont go into it as much as me - they just accept what they get which is never good enough in my experience / my eyes 

Ive spent thousands on top kef ref speakers and top class amps. It sounds great...

Then ive added special cables.. it sounds even better

Then..

Ive added a power cable. Even better

Then power regen

Even better.

And so on...

Now how bad would it sound if you removed all these componants???

It cant just get better and better

Why can't something get better and better as you progessively eliminate weaknesses? Of course it can.

There will come a point that the law of diminishing returns prevents any significant improvement achieved being worth the financial outlay, but that is down to the personal subjectivity of what "worth" means.

Is if so many things made an improvement then the original equipment would sound kak if removed the after market stuff.

Im open to a test and ill be honest.
Id be up for someone putting those products on my system anytime.
Im also still in open mind regards the innous

 

[ellisdj]

Andrew I am of the opinion it does keep getting better to a point where the limiting factor takes over.

That limiting factor can be many things, I think just one weak link can bring the whole lot down - I would say room acoustics and room size being number 1 on that list.

Its being aware of what that weak link is and then being able to fix it, and not settling for it is all I mean.

And also the desire to keep pushing it as well - again not settling for it. Never have I heard any sound be so perfect that its settle worthy quality for life. I dont think just buying better speaker is anywhere near enough on its own, however that always seems to be the advice that is given

 

[Gazzip]

CNo - sometimes its bad because it shows up another flaw in the setup. ( i.e dont give up on this route of improvement - the benefit is there)

This has happened to me a lot, make some changes, move a few steps back initially, work out what it is, fix it, then move 5 steps forward.

However most people dont go into it as much as me - they just accept what they get which is never good enough in my experience / my eyes

Ive spent thousands on top kef ref speakers and top class amps. It sounds great...

Then ive added special cables.. it sounds even better

Then..

Ive added a power cable. Even better

Then power regen

Even better.

And so on...

Now how bad would it sound if you removed all these componants???

It cant just get better and better

Why can't something get better and better as you progessively eliminate weaknesses? Of course it can.

There will come a point that the law of diminishing returns prevents any significant improvement achieved being worth the financial outlay, but that is down to the personal subjectivity of what "worth" means.

Is if so many things made an improvement then the original equipment would sound kak if removed the after market stuff.

Im open to a test and ill be honest. Id be up for someone putting those products on my system anytime. Im also still in open mind regards the innous

As with every "enhancement" to an orginal, improvements are only ever going to be relative to how much that original can actually be improved upon. If I put a sharp suit on it won't make me in to Brad Pitt.

 

[ellisdj]

As with every "enhancement" to an orginal, improvements are only ever going to be relative to how much that original can actually be improved upon

I dont know about this because its surprised me just how much better the same stuff sounds here now compared to how it did for me years ago. I thought I had cracked it back then, I now realise there is a long way to go.

 

[nopiano]

As with every "enhancement" to an orginal, improvements are only ever going to be relative to how much that original can actually be improved upon

I dont know about this because its surprised me just how much better the same stuff sounds here now compared to how it did for me years ago. I thought I had cracked it back then, I now realise there is a long way to go.

I agree, but equally have sometimes found one can revert to the basics and not be disappointed at all. Sometimes, as has been said here before, we have a significant expectation bias that any change is an improvement. And that doesnt necessarily equate to an overall superiority, just that we belived we heard a change.