needing mains power solutions and advice.

[kingsap]

Hi all my listening time is usually after 9pm. Family is asleep and i can enjoy my audio in peace for hours till midnight. However, my habbits changed now and my listening time goes from 7pm till late. Sometimes in the late evening even. I noticed a noticable degradation in sound quality during this time. And i mean a lot. Especially in the mid bass, subBass and soundstage. i live in a housing neighbourhood and not near any industries and factories. The sound quality drops noticably..however there is no HUMS and HISSES like i heard many people with dirty mains power usually experience. Sometimes....very rarely if someone opens the fridge or switched on the air conditioning, there is a slight POP. just very slight, not enough to bother me. However, the loss in bass and soundstage bothers me to no end. i even switch off the water fountain and it helps the sound very slightly. So what is my solution to this situation? Im pretty sure its the mains power that is inconsistent..since after 9, the sound quality is perfect again after most of the other appliances is switched off. My systems are nad m51 -> gustard u12 -> densen b200 ->densen b330 -> neat mf5 and genesis g928s. I/C and speaker cables are tchernov reference. Power cords and power conditioners are standard. So what are my solutions to prevent this scenario? i Have close to 0 knowledge on electronics so please not too technical lolz. And hopefully the solution is not too expensive 1) install a power conditioner such as RGPC? or is there other conditioner? 2)install a power regenerator? such as ps audio p3 or p5 (too expensive though) 3) dedicated lines? Seriously i have no idea how to do this and would avoid this case if possible. How hard is it to do if i asked the help of an electrician? 4) balanced isolation transformer? 5) any other solutions? 6) stick to listening at 9pm 7) upgrade power cords (pretty sure this is not the solution)

any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks all

 

[macdiddy]

in regards why your system sounds different now that your are listening at an earlier time than before.

most people between 7 and 9pm settle down to watch the soaps, dramas etc and during the ad breaks get up to make a drink etc which means millions of kettles being switched on at the same time creating a greater load on the power networks.

Like you I find that later in the evening ( after 10), my system generally sounds better, this is because at times like these the load on the power network is at its lowest due to people going to sleep etc.

*music2*

 

[Gaz37]

Move house? *biggrin*

What would be picking up the interference?

If it's your equipment perhaps some form of sheilding?

If it's the electrical cabling then you're screwed unless you fancy running sheilded cable all the way to the substation

 

[Vladimir]

Considering how cool and pricey your system is, and the banter on how others had previously bad experience with mains noise, my bet is on audiophile delusions due to change of habbits. I prescribe you Sir 2 weeks of no music listening on your awesome hi-fi. Or just buy a 1000 quid power conditioner and make the system even more awesome.

 

[kingsap]

Move house? *biggrin*

What would be picking up the interference?

If it's your equipment perhaps some form of sheilding?

If it's the electrical cabling then you're screwed unless you fancy running sheilded cable all the way to the substation

Usually if there is any inteference, i would be thinking there will be hums and hisses. In my case however, it is still dead quite and silent.

Just that the bass seems to...disappear. i was reading some forums and articles and was wondering if there is a voltage dip in that time. Is there any solution to prevent this case? Or am i screwed over lol.

To vladimir. The loss of quality is seriously significant. Especially the bass. It is very obvious. Im also a firm non believer of cables and power cords because i could not hear a difference when i try them at my system. In this case, the difference is so significant and obvious.

 

[Gaz37]

If you think you're suffering a drop in power significant to effect sound quality I would expect your lights to be dimming too.

I you have a multimeter a simple & totally unambiguous solution would be try taking a voltage & ampage reading at various times if theres a difference complain to powergen, if not it must be your imagination

 

[davedotco]

The power drop at peak times can be significant, the 7 - 9pm time being notorious for this, an issue that is clearly going to be worse in a residential neighbourhood.

The overall voltage of the supply to your house may well drop significantly as may the mains supply's capability to supply surges in current. In theory the power supply in your equipment should be able to cope with this, but so many people appear to notice this effect so perhaps not.

In addition the waveform, ie the 50hz 230volt (or whatever) sine wave coming into your house may be distorted in some way, for example any devices using half wave rectification can distort the sinewave quite considerably.

Mains 'conditioners' may help if your issues are primarily distorted mains, but can not help with a significant drop in power. If you live in the UK IsoTek have a range of equipment that might help and they are reasonably honest about what their products can and can not do. I have always found them very helpful.

The only 100% solution is a full on mains regenerator, PS Audio is the name best known in hi-fi circles but their product is quite expensive. Take a look at this...

http://www.powerinspired.com/ac-regenerators-c-98.html?osCsid=c2aa86911a3c0473582cb9b4786770d8

 

[Vladimir]

Let's say ideal voltage for the Densen B330 would be 240V. If the transformer secondary winidngs for the power amp output 5A, that is 240V x 5A = 1200VA energy available to charge the PSU caps. If the voltage drops to 200V, this will come down to 1000VA. The transformer of that amp is 750VA and the capacitor bank has a total storage of 100,000uF. The speakers are 88dB/W efficient and 6ohms nominal. Even a 40V drop shouldn't affect the sound at all. You can unplug the amp's power cord in midst of playing music and that thing will sing for another half a minute without power (unless a safety relay turn it off immediately).

As suggested, just get a simple multimeter and measure the mains when you think the problem occurs.

 

[abacus]

Yes, the mains supply voltage varies during the day, with built up areas having the greatest changes. (They can be quite significant, but always within legal limits, otherwise the power company has to do something about it)

It will not effect low power products CD players, Streamers, pre-amps etc. however it will effect the power amp causing the volume to increase and decrease with the varying input voltage, (Short term changes will be absorbed by any decent power supply) and as the volume decreases the ear hears less bass & treble etc. while with an increase in volume the ear hears more Bass & Treble etc., (Hence it is of paramount importance that all volumes are level matched when comparing cables) and it is known as the loudness effect.

The only way to cure it, is to get a voltage regulator that has tight voltage control, however the more power required (Power amplifiers can need a lot) the more expensive they get.

Myself I just turn the volume up or down to suit.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[Vladimir]

If significant voltage drop occurs, amplifier volume (loudness) wont be affected at all. If the amp doesn't have regulated rails and the caps arent being charged fast enough, the worst case scenario is clipping.

 

[CnoEvil]

You might like to have a read of this: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/mains-blocks-conditioners-regenerators

 

[CnoEvil]

You might like to have a read of this: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/mains-blocks-conditioners-regenerators

 

[abacus]

If significant voltage drop occurs, amplifier volume (loudness) wont be affected at all. If the amp doesn't have regulated rails and the caps arent being charged fast enough, the worst case scenario is clipping.

You are correct for everything except the power amplifier where the output voltage will vary in proportion to the input voltage. (The amount of the variation will be dependent on the power supply and class of amplification used)

If you don't believe me, check both the input and output voltages during the day with a multimeter and it will show up as clear as a bell.

Bill

 

[davedotco]

Let's say ideal voltage for the Densen B330 would be 240V. If the transformer secondary winidngs for the power amp output 5A, that is 240V x 5A = 1200VA energy available to charge the PSU caps. If the voltage drops to 200V, this will come down to 1000VA. The transformer of that amp is 750VA and the capacitor bank has a total storage of 100,000uF. The speakers are 88dB/W efficient and 6ohms nominal. Even a 40V drop shouldn't affect the sound at all. You can unplug the amp's power cord in midst of playing music and that thing will sing for another half a minute without power (unless a safety relay turn it off immediately).

As suggested, just get a simple multimeter and measure the mains when you think the problem occurs.

Vlad, you are most probably correct here, but this phenomena is well known enough, across a range of users to suggest something is going on.

Back in the day a lot of the blame was based on CRT tv that used half wave rectification and heavily distorted one half of the mains sinewave, these days, I'm not so sure but unless it is a serious mass delusion across the hi-fi buying public, there is something to this.

 

[Vladimir]

I know delusion sounds a bit pejorative, but I don't know a more polite word for it. Misperception? I've had the same thing with mains power more than once, borrowed and bought voltage regulators and measured and listened back and forward... Sometimes the problem is gone, then it's a problem because I use voltage regulation... ugh. It never ends untill you stop worrying about it. If no one told me it was an issue I would have never had an issue. Same later for the "power conditioners deteriorate sound dynamics". I seriously think change of habbits and even just stress and blood presure affects sound more than the mains or wires. A simple multimeter measurement is the smart thing to do first.

And the OP is not just a clueless music lover who by listening noticed a deterioration in the sound of his electronics and called a professional electrician for advice. He's done this ritual many times before. He is an audiophile who immediately hit the forums seeking gregarious encouragement to satisfy his cravings and add another golden calf to the audiophile shrine. Just look at his threads. "Musical cables to improve bass performance and musicality? Does it exist?", "So I just purchased a chord silverplus usb cable.", "Does having a LCD/LED television between speakers affect sound?", "Bi-amping a neat speaker".

1.5kW power conditioner just to play a bl**dy song. We are all mad. I've put clay inside CDPs and placed them in sand.

 

[davedotco]

Once again you may be right, I do not know the OP so can not offer ajudgement.

Soeaking generally, over the years this issue has raised it's head many times, often with people with no pretension to be any kind of 'audiophile'.

Some times, just occasionaly, even in hi-fi, if it looks like a duck........*unknw*

 

[Vladimir]

Heck just buy it because it's cool to switch on machines before playing Sirius. Like getting ready to launch Apollo 13.

PS Audio certanly has affordable pricing and quality products.

 

[kingsap]

Thanks all for the advice. I had borrowed a power conditioner , a tacima from a friend and the problem still exists. The conditikner does not change the sound in any ways.

Ill have an electrician help me find out the problems.

Yes vladimir i do seek out the forums to satosfy my curiosity
However in the end, i did not buy any exptic canles. Just borrowed any spare cables from my brother and i did not buy another amp to bi amp because i could not hear a difference.

So the mental aspects of buying new shiny products that claim to improve sound does not effect me in any way and i am merely asking advice to cure my curiosity.

This time however, i seriously need help because the bass and soundstage collapsed and is very audible.
I need more time amd knowledge to research this.

 

[davedotco]

Not mains conditioning...! May be worth a go as the output is synthesized from scratch, a precise 50/60 hz oscillator in this case. The output is pure, low distortion and spot on in terms of voltage. See my links in an earlier post.

That said, the most likely cause of your issues are your own ears. they may still be reeling from the days events, so sensitivity will be down. Furthermore general background noise (from life going on around you) in the early evening may well keep them that way. As you relax and as background noise becomes less intrusive later into the evening, your ears become more sensitive so your system snaps back into focus.

I appreciate such an explanation is hard to believe, simply because we all think we can trust our ears, when in fact we can not. Genuine psycho-acoustic effects combined with a little expectation bias is a realistic explanation for what is going on here.

It may or may not be the problem but given the psycological aspects of this situation a regenerator might well solve your problem whilst making no measureable change to the performance of your system.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Is there an issue with your speakers and have your thought of swapping amps around to see if the same thing happens with a different amp or take the power amp out and run it on the normal integrated amp to see that way or try any old speakers your got to see if it happens still . Rule things out that's what I am trying to say before spending money to sort it out as you never no if it something simple .

 

[Covenanter]

If the voltage does drop significantly then this could certainly cause some effects, which might manifest themselves to your ears in the ways that you describe. Mains voltage does vary quite a bit anyway, in the UK the allowed tolerance is 230V +10% / -6%, which gives a range of 253V to 216V, which is quite a variation. Obviously the circuits inside your kit should have been designed with this in mind and should operate properly as long as the voltage stays in this band.

You could get someone to monitor your supply to see what is happening to the voltage. If it is wildly variable you could lean on your electricity supplier as most countries have regulations about this type of thing. That is unlikely to be a quick fix though!

The kit that Dave mentioned is the only foolproof way of getting a constant steady voltage and it wouldn't come cheap. Mains conditioners won't stabilise voltages.

Chris

 

[davedotco]

If the voltage does drop significantly then this could certainly cause some effects, which might manifest themselves to your ears in the ways that you describe. Mains voltage does vary quite a bit anyway, in the UK the allowed tolerance is 230V +10% / -6%, which gives a range of 253V to 216V, which is quite a variation. Obviously the circuits inside your kit should have been designed with this in mind and should operate properly as long as the voltage stays in this band.

You could get someone to monitor your supply to see what is happening to the voltage. If it is wildly variable you could lean on your electricity supplier as most countries have regulations about this type of thing. That is unlikely to be a quick fix though!

The kit that Dave mentioned is the only foolproof way of getting a constant steady voltage and it wouldn't come cheap. Mains conditioners won't stabilise voltages.

Chris

Not quite as expensive as they used to be, the 'Power Inspired' models cost £250 for 500VA and £499 for 1500VA, a fraction of the cost of the more well known PS Audio models.

 

[Covenanter]

If the voltage does drop significantly then this could certainly cause some effects, which might manifest themselves to your ears in the ways that you describe. Mains voltage does vary quite a bit anyway, in the UK the allowed tolerance is 230V +10% / -6%, which gives a range of 253V to 216V, which is quite a variation. Obviously the circuits inside your kit should have been designed with this in mind and should operate properly as long as the voltage stays in this band.

You could get someone to monitor your supply to see what is happening to the voltage. If it is wildly variable you could lean on your electricity supplier as most countries have regulations about this type of thing. That is unlikely to be a quick fix though!

The kit that Dave mentioned is the only foolproof way of getting a constant steady voltage and it wouldn't come cheap. Mains conditioners won't stabilise voltages.

Chris

Not quite as expensive as they used to be, the 'Power Inspired' models cost £250 for 500VA and £499 for 1500VA, a fraction of the cost of the more well known PS Audio models.

That's a good price! I hope nobody tells then that hifi addicts might buy them as it will shoot up then!

Chris