Mains Regeneration...

[lpv]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

 

[Gazzip]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

You really are a wanker of the highest order.

 

[lpv]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

You really are a wanke.r of the highest order.

loosing control? clearly you need more than just a yellow socket.. here's a product tailored just for you

https://youtu.be/Y5e3y6Btxfg

 

[Gaz37]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates.  Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....."   And his response:   ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....."   In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

 

1) I did admit this at the end of my post

2) A PhD in the subject was mentioned, I just thought given I know someone who has done extensive research in the general "hifi" domain may have a valid opinion. If the power supply in the amplifier is sufficient then so should it be (if the same supply is used) with other components.

Stavvy, you and everybody else on here are entitled to their opinion.

Sadly most of those opinions appear to be based upon other peoples opinions of other peoples opinions, instead of actual first person listening to setups with this type of kit in them. I am not saying you are one of these people but I just wish more people would try these things instead of "knowing" that they are snake oil without actually experiencing them.  

I "know" that if I hammer a nail into my hand it is going to hurt, in the same way I "know" that wrapping a magnet around my car's fuel line won't make it faster or more economical, I really don't need to try for myself.

 

[Gazzip]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates. Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....." And his response: ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....." In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

1) I did admit this at the end of my post

2) A PhD in the subject was mentioned, I just thought given I know someone who has done extensive research in the general "hifi" domain may have a valid opinion. If the power supply in the amplifier is sufficient then so should it be (if the same supply is used) with other components.

Stavvy, you and everybody else on here are entitled to their opinion.

Sadly most of those opinions appear to be based upon other peoples opinions of other peoples opinions, instead of actual first person listening to setups with this type of kit in them. I am not saying you are one of these people but I just wish more people would try these things instead of "knowing" that they are snake oil without actually experiencing them.

I "know" that if I hammer a nail into my hand it is going to hurt, in the same way I "know" that wrapping a magnet around my car's fuel line won't make it faster or more economical, I really don't need to try for myself.

Frankly your loss then.

 

[Gaz37]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates.  Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....."   And his response:   ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....."   In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

 

1) I did admit this at the end of my post

2) A PhD in the subject was mentioned, I just thought given I know someone who has done extensive research in the general "hifi" domain may have a valid opinion. If the power supply in the amplifier is sufficient then so should it be (if the same supply is used) with other components.

Stavvy, you and everybody else on here are entitled to their opinion.

Sadly most of those opinions appear to be based upon other peoples opinions of other peoples opinions, instead of actual first person listening to setups with this type of kit in them. I am not saying you are one of these people but I just wish more people would try these things instead of "knowing" that they are snake oil without actually experiencing them.  

I "know" that if I hammer a nail into my hand it is going to hurt, in the same way I "know" that wrapping a magnet around my car's fuel line won't make it faster or more economical, I really don't need to try for myself.

Frankly your loss then.

Really?

You might find that your system sounds better if you clean your ear canals with a wire brush attachment on an electric drill.
OK so expert medical professionals may be able to produce evidence advising against doing so but our hobby isn't about facts is it?

Why don't you try it, after all the only way of truly "knowing" is to experience it for yourself isn't it?

Disclaimer- Cleaning your ears with a wire brush drill attachment may cause death or serious injury do not try it.

 

[ellisdj]

Disclaimer- Cleaning your ears with a wire brush drill attachment may cause death or serious injury do not try it.

Dont flatter yourself that anyone has read more of this negative tripe your spouting - you have taken this thread to even sadder levels. Why would anyone get into hifi reading this from you.

Gazzip - what was you using before the PS10??

 

[Gaz37]

How people resort to name calling and bitterness when things aren't going their way?

One step away from the thugs at football matches who punch people for not supporting their team.

A post is made suggesting that the ONLY way of truly KNOWING something was to try it yourself, this is irrefutable nonesense yet I get criticised for highlighting this. Others have been called a wanker and a **** for disagreeing. I understand that it must be frustrating trying to get an opinion that makes no sense across but can we try to be civilised about it please?

 

[ellisdj]

The only thing that frustrates me is considering how little certain people think of anything cables mains etc - they think highly enough to want to appear in every thread as if its a competition between peers to either shout the loudest orr be the one to change an opnion - give over and give up - its boring.

Then its hilarious the other stuff I read from these same individuals, the divine such as TrevC and LPV - in the subwoofer thread, shows they dont really know as much as like to make out they do. They should spend more time in this regard and less time in here.

LPV's comments do I need an antimode or dual subs? - like as if one or the other is theholy grail because its from AVI - you probably need both at least - however its not guesswork you should know exactly what you need using Science

For another example TrevC comments he tried his BK subwoofer on its side to see if it made a difference - if he had any real knowledge of bass in a room he wouldnt even try that - that is a waste of time, and yet he wouldnt try a Mains Conditioner because that would be foolish?

Also he shouldnt say the anitmode made a huge difference - Where is the scienbce TrevC to support that show me - he should know exactly what the antimode has done to correct his room induced errors and then what errors still remain - do you have any idea? The ear is no good for listening, its certainly no good for measuring bass TrevC - but its good enough for you when you want it to be - Hypocrits.

However have I commented in that thread mentioning any of this and trying to belittle them - Of Course not, has anyone else no - Why Not - because they have the decency to leave people to the discussion and discovery as they see fit.

But in these types of threads on mains or cables those same people who dont even have a grasp of their own rooms sound yet still know everything of course

 

[lpv]

back on topic son

are you going to wear one of these while comparing cables?

 

[Gazzip]

back on topic son

are you going to wear one of these while comparing cables?

You're a bit strange.

 

[ellisdj]

back on topic son

are you going to wear one of these while comparing cables?

??

Lost on me that one - was that a joke?

 

[luckylion100]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

You really are a wanker of the highest order.

I used to have respect for you and found your posts interesting and of relevance but you've lost the plot and let yourself down. This thread needs locking down. Where the hell is the moderator?

 

[TrevC]

The only thing that frustrates me is considering how little certain people think of anything cables mains etc - they think highly enough to want to appear in every thread as if its a competition between peers to either shout the loudest orr be the one to change an opnion - give over and give up - its boring.

Then its hilarious the other stuff I read from these same individuals, the divine such as TrevC and LPV - in the subwoofer thread, shows they dont really know as much as like to make out they do. They should spend more time in this regard and less time in here.

LPV's comments do I need an antimode or dual subs? - like as if one or the other is theholy grail because its from AVI - you probably need both at least - however its not guesswork you should know exactly what you need using Science

For another example TrevC comments he tried his BK subwoofer on its side to see if it made a difference - if he had any real knowledge of bass in a room he wouldnt even try that - that is a waste of time, and yet he wouldnt try a Mains Conditioner because that would be foolish?

Also he shouldnt say the anitmode made a huge difference - Where is the scienbce TrevC to support that show me - he should know exactly what the antimode has done to correct his room induced errors and then what errors still remain - do you have any idea? The ear is no good for listening, its certainly no good for measuring bass TrevC - but its good enough for you when you want it to be - Hypocrits.

However have I commented in that thread mentioning any of this and trying to belittle them - Of Course not, has anyone else no - Why Not - because they have the decency to leave people to the discussion and discovery as they see fit.

But in these types of threads on mains or cables those same people who dont even have a grasp of their own rooms sound yet still know everything of course

It didn't cost me 5 grand to put the sub on its side and I know for a fact that mains stuff cannot possibly make any difference to sound quality. The quality of the mains is irrelevant in any half reasonable design. The difference in the bass quality was huge when I connected and calibrated the antimode to my room. Not an imaginary effect but a real one. To prove it is easy, you can switch the eq in and out to compare.

 

[ellisdj]

TrevC it just demonstartes that even though you think you know everything - clearly you dont. The fact you even tried that test shows that to me. Your comments on the antimode do the same - what did it actually do that was so great. This is actually an easy one for you to show me - should take 2 minutes.

 

[luckylion100]

power cable freaks, champions of main conditioners and such like, you need to learn to take some deep breaths and suck it up. There are other 'minorities' on here that take endless and needless ridicule and abuse yet we don't resort to the kind of foul mouthed abuse that's appearing on this thread. man up the lot of you, shame on you!

 

[lpv]

back on topic son

are you going to wear one of these while comparing cables?

??

Lost on me that one - was that a joke?

cable lovers are known to have safe and controled imagination.

 

[ellisdj]

You can keep imagining you know what your doing - because it doesnt look like it to me

 

[luckylion100]

concerning the whereabouts of the moderators... upon reading back it appeared that John Duncan only ever appeared if there was an opportunity to slag off AVI or Ashley James. Maybe he or a side kick will now appear! I think long ago he set the unpleasant tone on here which sadly continues to fester.

 

[SemiChronic]

Ive found that the best way to raise a moderator or even the head honcho himself, is to criticise the what hifi review process. I swear the suckers must have found a report button somewhere.

 

[TrevC]

TrevC it just demonstartes that even though you think you know everything - clearly you dont. The fact you even tried that test shows that to me. Your comments on the antimode do the same - what did it actually do that was so great. This is actually an easy one for you to show me - should take 2 minutes.

I never claimed to know everything, but thankfully I know more than you. I realise that is setting the bar quite low.

With the antimode active there is no boom and very low bass clearly present. With it bypassed the sound is boomy. The difference is very easy to hear.

 

[Gazzip]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

You really are a w***er of the highest order.

I used to have respect for you and found your posts interesting and of relevance but you've lost the plot and let yourself down. This thread needs locking down. Where the hell is the moderator?

I apologise for resorting to insult and profanity, how ever deserving it may have been.

I started this post with the intention of sharing my experience of something which I considered to be a useful addition to my setup. I expected some debate and some naysaying, but nothing on this scale. This is not a forum anymore. This is a hangout for trolls who want to be fed, and I fell for it. More fool me. Rest assured I shall not bother to try and help people on this website again.

 

[TrevC]

guys, you should try to invest in some yellow/ happy electrical sockets... it will have same positive effect on you as your power cables since you know it's there... let's just put appropriate price tag and luxury feel to it with proper advertising.

You really are a w***er of the highest order.

I used to have respect for you and found your posts interesting and of relevance but you've lost the plot and let yourself down. This thread needs locking down. Where the hell is the moderator?

I apologise for resorting to insult and profanity, how ever deserving it may have been.

I started this post with the intention of sharing my experience of something which I considered to be a useful addition to my setup. I expected some debate and some naysaying, but nothing on this scale. This is not a forum anymore. This is a hangout for trolls who want to be fed, and I fell for it. More fool me. Rest assured I shall not bother to try and help people on this website again.

 

[ellisdj]

With the antimode active there is no boom and very low bass clearly present. With it bypassed the sound is boomy. The difference is very easy to hear.

Its in your head TrevC - expectation bias, you cant trust your ears, they are unreliable - did you do ABX blind testing to prove that it made a difference?

Have you done any scientific testing to prove its not boomy???

If you say No to the above questions - dont ever post anything like the above again for anything that I say because it will be completely hypocritical - If you can hear a difference in something with no actual proof to back it up that is no different to anything else related to mains cables or anything of the sort - Its Exactly the Same - now in future if you say anything I will remind you of this where you openly admitted this and you will have to say I am wrong.

Becasue you have accepted an anitmode will make a difference you are hearing it - simple as - you have no idea what is has done

Also clearly you know very little about what is actually happening in your room in terms of sound - I would guess from your answer you know next to nothing - that is just simply embarrasing in my eyes, you should hide in shame

If someone asked me that question I could show you 5 different ways an antomode might have made a difference to the sound in my room so saying I know less than you is a joke. You think you know everything, but in reality you know nothing about what is important

 

[TrevC]

With the antimode active there is no boom and very low bass clearly present. With it bypassed the sound is boomy. The difference is very easy to hear.

Its in your head TrevC - expectation bias, you cant trust your ears, they are unreliable - did you do ABX blind testing to prove that it made a difference?

Have you done any scientific testing to prove its not boomy???

If you say No to the above questions - dont ever post anything like the above again for anything that I say because it will be completely hypocritical - If you can hear a difference in something with no actual proof to back it up that is no different to anything else related to mains cables or anything of the sort - Its Exactly the Same - now in future if you say anything I will remind you of this where you openly admitted this and you will have to say I am wrong.

Becasue you have accepted an anitmode will make a difference you are hearing it - simple as - you have no idea what is has done

Also clearly you know very little about what is actually happening in your room in terms of sound - I would guess from your answer you know next to nothing - that is just simply embarrasing in my eyes, you should hide in shame

If someone asked me that question I could show you 5 different ways an antomode might have made a difference to the sound in my room so saying I know less than you is a joke. You think you know everything, but in reality you know nothing about what is important

Stop trolling.