Mains Regeneration...

[Andrewjvt]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again.  However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved.  Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are.  If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening.  Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

The exact same standards can be applied to your experiences. God forbid someone should try to look at something from an objective or scientific perspective or discuss those possibilities without the "I heard it with my own ears and I know what I heard" crowd having a hissy fit. Perhaps consider that the reality lies somewhere between the two poles of the argument.

Your assuming that is what people want when they visit a HiFi Forum - I dont think that is the case at all, in fact I think its so far from the truth it makes this forum look a joke - you come to a hifi forum to discuss, chat and get people opinions on hifi equipment.

If you want a load of scientific information on anything then you look elswhere - wikipedia for example as just a start - not a hifi forum.

If you want the scientific information the same people insist on writing every time, fine but then you ask for it in the Thread Title - did Gazzip ask for it in this Thread Title??? NO

Has anyone else asked for it - NO?

How many times has it been posted in this thread - About 2 Pages worth

What is needed for umpeenth time - NO

How many posts have been about the product the discussion was started about - NONE !!!

What a joke, what an absolute Joke - its Sad that people do this every time - It couldnt be any more sad than it is .

Hey calm down

I for one promise not to make fun of your stupid power cables, regenerators and foo products ever again. Not to mention all the money wasted. I wont say anything again about all the bs, I promise

 

[ID.]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

The exact same standards can be applied to your experiences. God forbid someone should try to look at something from an objective or scientific perspective or discuss those possibilities without the "I heard it with my own ears and I know what I heard" crowd having a hissy fit. Perhaps consider that the reality lies somewhere between the two poles of the argument.

Your assuming that is what people want when they visit a HiFi Forum - I dont think that is the case at all, in fact I think its so far from the truth it makes this forum look a joke - you come to a hifi forum to discuss, chat and get people opinions on hifi equipment.

If you want a load of scientific information on anything then you look elswhere - wikipedia for example as just a start - not a hifi forum.

If you want the scientific information the same people insist on writing every time, fine but then you ask for it in the Thread Title - did Gazzip ask for it in this Thread Title??? NO

Has anyone else asked for it - NO?

How many times has it been posted in this thread - About 2 Pages worth

What is needed for umpeenth time - NO

How many posts have been about the product the discussion was started about - NONE !!!

What a joke, what an absolute Joke - its Sad that people do this every time - It couldnt be any more sad than it is .

i for one want to get all perspectives, and from what I can see there's very little to say about the product other than one person's subjective experience. Not much more to say really. If you've got more to say on the product than more anecdotes I'm interested in reading that too. If people think it's a fraud then I want to hear those opinions and the basis too.

Some of us are sick of people having a sook every time anything more than anecdotal subjective experiences are discussed. There may be more than science can explain at this stage, but you're not exactly helping your "side" with its case. rebut or ignore it rather than whining about how it's not fair that you can't discuss things on a public forum in exactly the way and only the specific areas YOU want to talk about. Seems rather self centered.

 

[ellisdj]

10 more posts - still none about the PSAudio P10? Who actually looks silly now AndyJM - was there any merit in your post - or just a dumb attempt at bullying and belittling someone else - good work there

Gazzip why are you not plugging the amplifier into the PS10?

 

[ellisdj]

Some of us are sick of people having a sook every time anything more than anecdotal subjective experiences are discussed.

So sick of it you come on here everyday and read it and post in every thread on this topic. So sick you cant just let threads go uninterrupted and let people discuss their opinion on things without barging in all guns blazing. That is what you and other people do everytime. Exactly that - there is no opportunity for people to have a conversation as the thread gets full or argument and thrown off track.

If people were discussing something in a bar or pub or cafe or anywhere and you didnt agree with them would you try and force your opinion on them if they didnt ask for it. - No you wouldny

That is what people do on this forum - exactly that, every time - who is self centred really? - noone has asked for this information from you, or anyone else - you are being self centred writing it and stopping other peoples discussions or right to discuss a topic.

Its very sad thats what I have come to think, I actually feel sorry for you now

I

 

[Gazzip]

10 more posts - still none about the PSAudio P10? Who actually looks silly now AndyJM - was there any merit in your post - or just a dumb attempt at bullying and belittling someone else - good work there

Gazzip why are you not plugging the amplifier into the PS10?

I am, along with my DAC, turntable power supply, phonostage, music server and AV amp.

I think the sonic benefits are probably being gained in the digital source components due to a reduction in DC voltage instability to the clock oscillators of the DAC, ergo reducing jitter. I am happy to keep an open mind on this and will have a play around with various connectivity combinations at the weekend and report back.

Oh yeah, one more thing I didn't mention is that I picked up a few high end power cables as part of the deal I did on the P10. I am feeding the P10 and the DAC with PS Audio AC12's. I hate to say this but their inclusion in the chain also brings about an improvement.

 

[ellisdj]

Now we need to test them against my XLO cables - that would be a very interesting test. Please let me know if you would be interested in doing that - you can come to me if you are not happy the other way around.

I like the PS Audio ideal for their power cables of certain conductors for certain sonic benefits - however that is breaking an XLO patent I dont know how they get away with it? Unless they pay a royalty?

Please let me know on this testing if you would like to? Thanks, all the best

 

[Gazzip]

Now we need to test them against my XLO cables - that would be a very interesting test. Please let me know if you would be interested in doing that - you can come to me if you are not happy the other way around.

I like the PS Audio ideal for their power cables of certain conductors for certain sonic benefits - however that is breaking an XLO patent I dont know how they get away with it? Unless they pay a royalty?

Please let me know on this testing if you would like to? Thanks, all the best

Sounds like a plan. Are you local to London? My diary is pretty full for the next few weeks but let's set something up?

 

[ellisdj]

Sounds like a plan. Are you local to London? My diary is pretty full for the next few weeks but let's set something up?

Yes I am - I am Essex based so not far. I think XLO are the best I have tried by a lot but its always nice to put that to the test

Please let me know what might work - are you a member of other forums with private messaging?

 

[TrevC]

So get a 32kw one, pull the power and run your hi-fi off the batteries all evening.

Get a couple of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wind-Generator-24-V-12V-300W-Wind-turbine-ener...

and a couple of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-100W-12v-Energy-Semi-Flexible-Mono-Solar-P...

and one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-1200W-converter-pure-sine-wave-power-inve...

to recharge the batteries whilst you're working.

You could do all of that, but the sound quality won't be changed one tiny bit.

 

[TrevC]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

I think you should stop posting nonsense.

 

[TrevC]

I think the sonic benefits are probably being gained in the digital source components due to a reduction in DC voltage instability to the clock oscillators of the DAC, ergo reducing jitter.

Surely that depends on whether there's a full moon or not.

 

[Gazzip]

I think the sonic benefits are probably being gained in the digital source components due to a reduction in DC voltage instability to the clock oscillators of the DAC, ergo reducing jitter.

Surely that depends on whether there's a full moon or not.

Well the moon used to have a very strong magnetic field so perhaps 150 million years ago my DAC's performance could well have been effected by lunar events. Although back then it would have been called a PteroDACtyl of course.

 

[Gaz37]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again.  However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved.  Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are.  If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening.  Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

The exact same standards can be applied to your experiences. God forbid someone should try to look at something from an objective or scientific perspective or discuss those possibilities without the "I heard it with my own ears and I know what I heard" crowd having a hissy fit. Perhaps consider that the reality lies somewhere between the two poles of the argument.

Your assuming that is what people want when they visit a HiFi Forum - I dont think that is the case at all, in fact I think its so far from the truth it makes this forum look a joke - you come to a hifi forum to discuss, chat and get people opinions on hifi equipment.

If you want a load of scientific information on anything then you look elswhere - wikipedia for example as just a start - not a hifi forum.

If you want the scientific information the same people insist on writing every time, fine but then you ask for it in the Thread Title - did Gazzip ask for it in this Thread Title??? NO

Has anyone else asked for it - NO?

How many times has it been posted in this thread - About 2 Pages worth

What is needed for umpeenth time - NO

How many posts have been about the product the discussion was started about - NONE !!!

What a joke, what an absolute Joke - its Sad that people do this every time - It couldnt be any more sad than it is .

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

That would make for a very boring and misleading forum wouldn't it?

 

[ellisdj]

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

I cant ever imagine that happening.... noone has said that or asked for that

However what I have said and asked for is the restraint from cartain people in threads like this - they have the decency to allow other people the right to use this forum to freely chat about certain products discussing their own experiences and opinons on the product.

You find a thread on cables or mains products or isolation products in the last year where this has been allowed or the case? I cant remember any for years.

Instead you get constant reems of unwanted information, long postings clogging up the thread and causing a delibreate argument to throw the thread off course - That is just selfish really

If the thread title justifies this information from people i.e its been asked for then fine - however other threads they should show restraint, but thats never the case,

People do actually want to use a HiFi forum to disucss their hifi experiences - funny that, this forum should be a hub for that information - but its not, it mostly reads as grumpy old men moaning at each other. Its Sad

 

[TrevC]

10 more posts - still none about the PSAudio P10?

OK, let's see:

From their website.

The power that comes out of your home’s wall socket is unregulated, weak and prone to distortion.[/b]

Computers And Domestic Equipment Such As Your Fridge Or Mobile Phone Battery Charger - Vitually all modern day appliances - can put tremendous amounts Of mains noise onto the main supply. But You Hear Its Effect - It Adds A Grainy 'Mush' Quality To The Sound That Hides Details And The Sense Of Space In Your Recordings.

Complete and utter bollocks. The technical equivalent of a Nigerian no ticket lottery scam. If you are persuaded by this twaddle you deserve to be ripped off.

 

[ellisdj]

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

I cant ever imagine that happening.... noone has said that or asked for that

However what I have said and asked for is the restraint from cartain people in threads like this - they have the decency to allow other people the right to use this forum to freely chat about certain products discussing their own experiences and opinons on the product.

You find a thread on cables or mains products or isolation products in the last year where this has been allowed or the case? I cant remember any for years.

Instead you get constant reems of unwanted information, long postings clogging up the thread and causing a delibreate argument to throw the thread off course - That is just selfish really

If the thread title justifies this information from people i.e its been asked for then fine - however other threads they should show restraint, but thats never the case,

People do actually want to use a HiFi forum to disucss their hifi experiences - funny that, this forum should be a hub for that information - but its not, it mostly reads as grumpy old men moaning at each other. Its Sad

You seem to be moaning just as much as anyone else. More in fact.

Sorry if facts and reality upset you, but you are kind of stick with them.

Thats exactly the type of post that proves my point above - you are a Sad man TrevC.

 

[TrevC]

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

I cant ever imagine that happening.... noone has said that or asked for that

However what I have said and asked for is the restraint from cartain people in threads like this - they have the decency to allow other people the right to use this forum to freely chat about certain products discussing their own experiences and opinons on the product.

You find a thread on cables or mains products or isolation products in the last year where this has been allowed or the case? I cant remember any for years.

Instead you get constant reems of unwanted information, long postings clogging up the thread and causing a delibreate argument to throw the thread off course - That is just selfish really

If the thread title justifies this information from people i.e its been asked for then fine - however other threads they should show restraint, but thats never the case,

People do actually want to use a HiFi forum to disucss their hifi experiences - funny that, this forum should be a hub for that information - but its not, it mostly reads as grumpy old men moaning at each other. Its Sad

You seem to be moaning just as much as anyone else. More in fact.

Sorry if facts and reality upset you, but you are kind of stuck with them.

 

[TrevC]

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

I cant ever imagine that happening.... noone has said that or asked for that

However what I have said and asked for is the restraint from cartain people in threads like this - they have the decency to allow other people the right to use this forum to freely chat about certain products discussing their own experiences and opinons on the product.

You find a thread on cables or mains products or isolation products in the last year where this has been allowed or the case? I cant remember any for years.

Instead you get constant reems of unwanted information, long postings clogging up the thread and causing a delibreate argument to throw the thread off course - That is just selfish really

If the thread title justifies this information from people i.e its been asked for then fine - however other threads they should show restraint, but thats never the case,

People do actually want to use a HiFi forum to disucss their hifi experiences - funny that, this forum should be a hub for that information - but its not, it mostly reads as grumpy old men moaning at each other. Its Sad

You seem to be moaning just as much as anyone else. More in fact.

Sorry if facts and reality upset you, but you are kind of stuck with them.

Thats exactly the type of post that proves my point above - you are a Sad man TrevC.

Nope, me happy man.:O)

 

[stavvy]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates. Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....." And his response: ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....." In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

1) I did admit this at the end of my post

2) A PhD in the subject was mentioned, I just thought given I know someone who has done extensive research in the general "hifi" domain may have a valid opinion. If the power supply in the amplifier is sufficient then so should it be (if the same supply is used) with other components.

 

[Gaz37]

Wow, so everybody has to agree with whatever anybody else posts or say nothing?

I cant ever imagine that happening.... noone has said that or asked for that

However what I have said and asked for is the restraint from cartain people in threads like this - they have the decency to  allow other people the right to use this forum to freely chat about certain products discussing their own experiences and opinons on the product.  

You find a thread on cables or mains products or isolation products in the last year where this has been allowed or the case?  I cant remember any for years.

Instead you get constant reems of unwanted information, long postings clogging up the thread and causing a delibreate argument to throw the thread off course - That is just selfish really 

If the thread title justifies this information from people i.e its been asked for then fine - however other threads they should show restraint, but thats never the case,

People do actually want to use a HiFi forum to disucss their hifi experiences - funny that, this forum should be a hub for that information - but its not, it mostly reads as grumpy old men moaning at each other.  Its Sad 

 

Is it right that somebody comes on this forum and reads a post extolling the virtues of power enhancements and, taking this as gospel, goes out and buys one only to be disappointed?

I'm sure the OP genuinely believes that his regenerater has improved his system however I'm equally sure that if I sneaked into his house and bypassed it he wouldn't hear the difference.

I think it only right and proper that readers see both sides of the argument. If the same things keep being posted (virtues of cables, power products) then it stands to reason that the same arguments will be used to refute them. I don't see why TrevC keeps getting stick for posting the same points repeatedly yet the thread starters don't.

Maybe cable & power enhancement threads should be banned?

 

[Gazzip]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates. Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....." And his response: ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....." In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

1) I did admit this at the end of my post

2) A PhD in the subject was mentioned, I just thought given I know someone who has done extensive research in the general "hifi" domain may have a valid opinion. If the power supply in the amplifier is sufficient then so should it be (if the same supply is used) with other components.

Stavvy, you and everybody else on here are entitled to their opinion.

Sadly most of those opinions appear to be based upon other peoples opinions of other peoples opinions, instead of actual first person listening to setups with this type of kit in them. I am not saying you are one of these people but I just wish more people would try these things instead of "knowing" that they are snake oil without actually experiencing them.

 

[lpv]

 

[ellisdj]

Is it right that somebody comes on this forum and reads a post extolling the virtues of power enhancements and, taking this as gospel, goes out and buys one only to be disappointed?

I think it only right and proper that readers see both sides of the argument.

If someone is using this forum for research on these type of products what do you think they will find already?? Do you think they read one thread and are sold on a unit - I dont think so. But they might - hold on wait for it - be Actually Interested in someone who has used the products opinion on it - Wow can you believe it. However would they find that in this thread NOPE.

Do you think they need more information from you on top of the countless other threads that have descended into arguement before? I think not, its the last thing someone wants to read.

In fact I dont think people even read these reads past a few pages (I think that is the commericial goal of some people that post on here) - they certainly dont take your advice as the companies selling these units are larger than ever with more options in their portfolio for sale than ever. So really all your doing is wasting your time. Did threads like this stop Gazzip, nope, did it stop me nope, has it stopped anyone else, maybe a handful of people - funnily enough its the handful that fill these threads with the same old tripe.

 

[TrevC]

How about one of these instead of the foo thing? Far cheaper and no more power cuts.

http://www.powerinspired.com/3kva27kw-online-uninterruptible-power-supply-p-1899.html?gclid=CJPDzoqt5M8CFeMp0wodjYQIDQ

 

[Gazzip]

How about one of these instead of the foo thing? Far cheaper and no more power cuts.

http://www.powerinspired.com/3kva27kw-online-uninterruptible-power-supply-p-1899.html?gclid=CJPDzoqt5M8CFeMp0wodjYQIDQ

I haven't heard it in my system but yes it would be worth a look if I were buying again...