Mains Regeneration...

[Gazzip]

did you really think for a second ( of course you did) there's an 'electronic engineer with a PHD in the field of mains regenerator' reading this thread and willing to give you scientific explanation to back up your ' it does sound better' claim?

Nope. What I actually said was that the jobbing electronics engineers on this forum know jack sh-t about the affect that AC mains may or may not have on the sound produced by hifi equipment. They know how to build circuits and that is all. They are not physicists and this is physics.

It's basic electrical knowledge. So basic that even you could learn it!

I'll give you a clue. An amplifier doesn't actually run from the mains itself, it runs on smooth DC. It will sound the same if it was run from batteries.

Or putting it another way, if you wash your food do you believe it will make you run faster?

Of course not because your digestive system turns the food into an energy form that your muscles can use.

Hmmm... Poor analogy that one. Food chemically breaks down and changes state, whereas the AC is converted to DC in a more linear fashion. Garbage in garbage out.

 

[Gaz37]

did you really think for a second ( of course you did) there's an 'electronic engineer with a PHD in the field of mains regenerator' reading this thread and willing to give you scientific explanation to back up your ' it does sound better' claim?

Nope. What I actually said was that the jobbing electronics engineers on this forum know jack sh-t about the affect that AC mains may or may not have on the sound produced by hifi equipment. They know how to build circuits and that is all. They are not physicists and this is physics. 

It's basic electrical knowledge. So basic that even you could learn it!

I'll give you a clue. An amplifier doesn't actually run from the mains itself, it runs on smooth DC. It will sound the same if it was run from batteries. 

Or putting it another way, if you wash your food do you believe it will make you run faster?

Of course not because your digestive system turns the food into an energy form that your muscles can use.

Hmmm... Poor analogy that one. Food chemically breaks down and changes state, whereas the AC is converted to DC in a more linear fashion. Garbage in garbage out.

It doesn't detract from the inescapable fact that your amp's internal power supply alters the conditioned/ regenerated electricity before it gets to any component that has anything to do with sound reproduction.

 

[lpv]

you say P10 has made huge difference and that you are seriously impressed. I think you should consider your own electricity pole.

 

[lpv]

.

 

[chebby]

I think you should consider your own electricity pole.

Here's one.

 

[Gazzip]

you say P10 has made huge difference and that you are seriously impressed. I think you should consider your own electricity pole.

Hmmm... Possibly my own generator might do it, but my own electricity pole would still bring in power from the National Grid now wouldn't it.

 

[lindsayt]

Strapped my setup on to a PS Audio P10 mains regenerator this weekend. NB: Not simply a "conditioner" but a "regenerator", which (they say) rebuilds the incoming AC and outputs it as a perfect sine wave. It also stabilises voltage as well as conditioning/circuit protecting etc. as it goes...

Did you pay £4999 for it?

Are there less expensive mains regenerators that would have done the same or better job on your system in your house to your ears?

How difficult and expensive would be it be to DIY, or get a technician to custom build a P10 equivalent?

Something like this costs less than the P10 and makes the P10 look puny. 32kw vs 1.5kw!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-VT-40kVA-32kW-28-8Ah-Uninterruptible-Data-Center-Battery-Back-Up-/361673771003?hash=item54356fc7fb:g:L0IAAOSwZVlXohTb

Or something like this with 5kw at one tenth the price of the P10:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-5000-VA-UPS-Rackmount-NEW-CELLS-12M-RTB-NF-/182283529287?hash=item2a70f1ec47:g:g6kAAOSwCGVX2~le

 

[Gazzip]

Strapped my setup on to a PS Audio P10 mains regenerator this weekend. NB: Not simply a "conditioner" but a "regenerator", which (they say) rebuilds the incoming AC and outputs it as a perfect sine wave. It also stabilises voltage as well as conditioning/circuit protecting etc. as it goes...

Did you pay £4999 for it?

Are there less expensive mains regenerators that would have done the same or better job on your system in your house to your ears?

How difficult and expensive would be it be to DIY, or get a technician to custom build a P10 equivalent?

Something like this costs less than the P10 and makes the P10 look puny. 32kw vs 1.5kw!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-VT-40kVA-32kW-28-8Ah-Uninterrupt...

Or something like this with 5kw at one tenth the price of the P10:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-5000-VA-UPS-Rackmount-NEW-CELLS-12M-RTB-NF...

Nowhere near £5K and second hand. I acknowledged in my opening post that the same can be had for much, much less. Mine looks prettier than any of those and also has other hifi functionality such as time delay power up for individual sockets.

I didn't say "wow look at my bargain purchase", I simply stated that it made a difference to the SQ...

 

[lindsayt]

Strapped my setup on to a PS Audio P10 mains regenerator this weekend. NB: Not simply a "conditioner" but a "regenerator", which (they say) rebuilds the incoming AC and outputs it as a perfect sine wave. It also stabilises voltage as well as conditioning/circuit protecting etc. as it goes...

Did you pay £4999 for it?

Are there less expensive mains regenerators that would have done the same or better job on your system in your house to your ears?

How difficult and expensive would be it be to DIY, or get a technician to custom build a P10 equivalent?

Something like this costs less than the P10 and makes the P10 look puny. 32kw vs 1.5kw!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-VT-40kVA-32kW-28-8Ah-Uninterrupt...

Or something like this with 5kw at one tenth the price of the P10:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-5000-VA-UPS-Rackmount-NEW-CELLS-12M-RTB-NF...

Nowhere near £5K and second hand. I acknowledged in my opening post that the same can be had for much, much less. Mine looks prettier than any of those and also has other hifi functionality such as time delay power up for individual sockets.

I didn't say "wow look at my bargain purchase", I simply stated that it made a difference to the SQ...

How much then? £2.5k? £2k?

I'm perfectly happy to accept your judgement that it made a significant improvement to your system in your house. From what I've read, mains regenerators seem to be somewhat system and house dependent.

 

[lpv]

I think you should consider your own electricity pole.

Here's one.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fBDEh3JqUmo/Tl5esVqtiAI/AAAAAAAAAHA/cGI2p9Nl8eM/s1600/stop-being-a-****.jpg

 

[Gazzip]

Strapped my setup on to a PS Audio P10 mains regenerator this weekend. NB: Not simply a "conditioner" but a "regenerator", which (they say) rebuilds the incoming AC and outputs it as a perfect sine wave. It also stabilises voltage as well as conditioning/circuit protecting etc. as it goes...

Did you pay £4999 for it?

Are there less expensive mains regenerators that would have done the same or better job on your system in your house to your ears?

How difficult and expensive would be it be to DIY, or get a technician to custom build a P10 equivalent?

Something like this costs less than the P10 and makes the P10 look puny. 32kw vs 1.5kw!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-Smart-UPS-VT-40kVA-32kW-28-8Ah-Uninterrupt...

Or something like this with 5kw at one tenth the price of the P10:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-5000-VA-UPS-Rackmount-NEW-CELLS-12M-RTB-NF...

Nowhere near £5K and second hand. I acknowledged in my opening post that the same can be had for much, much less. Mine looks prettier than any of those and also has other hifi functionality such as time delay power up for individual sockets.

I didn't say "wow look at my bargain purchase", I simply stated that it made a difference to the SQ...

How much then? £2.5k? £2k?

I'm perfectly happy to accept your judgement that it made a significant improvement to your system in your house. From what I've read, mains regenerators seem to be somewhat system and house dependent.

It worked out to be about £2K...

 

[thewinelake.]

To the guy with the flickery LED lights on dimmers - that's what you get with the wrong sort of dimmer. You need to get one that's designed to work with LEDs - I think it might be "trailing edge" that you're looking for. But any half decent electrician would know that ;-)

Also, for those talking about UPSes - there are also two sorts. Line interactive or Offline/Standby. The second type won't do anything for your power beyond a simple filtering unless there's an outage, as it only switches in (quite quickly!) in the event of power failure. A Line Interactive works by using the inverter all the time, so could likely clean up the signal more.

 

[lindsayt]

So get a 32kw one, pull the power and run your hi-fi off the batteries all evening.

Get a couple of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wind-Generator-24-V-12V-300W-Wind-turbine-energy-6-Blades-Power-Supply-/201406740520?var=&hash=item2ee4c6f828:m:mEqlE9S9vcLdchD5ZiCTOJw

and a couple of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-100W-12v-Energy-Semi-Flexible-Mono-Solar-Panel-100-watt-TUV-ISO-UK-/262559660348?hash=item3d21c6793c:g:ksEAAOSwrklU8JB0

and one of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500W-1200W-converter-pure-sine-wave-power-inverter-DC-12v-to-AC-220V-240V-/322166552880?hash=item4b029f7930:g:HSUAAOSwyQtV4Voa

to recharge the batteries whilst you're working.

 

[lpv]

It worked out to be about £2K...

it does not hold much value then..

btw, do you have speaker cable elevators?

 

[Gazzip]

It worked out to be about £2K...

it does not hold much value then..

btw, do you have speaker cable elevators?

Nope, never tried them, although just because some guy who gained a 2:2 in electronics circa 1964 says they don't do anything for SQ it does not necessarily make it so.

 

[stavvy]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:
".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates. Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....." And his response: ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.

An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.

In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!

I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....." In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

 

[ellisdj]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

 

[ID.]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

The exact same standards can be applied to your experiences. God forbid someone should try to look at something from an objective or scientific perspective or discuss those possibilities without the "I heard it with my own ears and I know what I heard" crowd having a hissy fit. Perhaps consider that the reality lies somewhere between the two poles of the argument.

 

[DocG]

To the guy with the flickery LED lights on dimmers - that's what you get with the wrong sort of dimmer. You need to get one that's designed to work with LEDs - I think it might be "trailing edge" that you're looking for. But any half decent electrician would know that ;-)

Also, for those talking about UPSes - there are also two sorts. Line interactive or Offline/Standby. The second type won't do anything for your power beyond a simple filtering unless there's an outage, as it only switches in (quite quickly!) in the event of power failure. A Line Interactive works by using the inverter all the time, so could likely clean up the signal more.

Thanks thewinelake,

I'll tell my apparently-less-than-half-decent electrician tomorrow!

The guy with the flickery LED lights.

 

[TrevC]

did you really think for a second ( of course you did) there's an 'electronic engineer with a PHD in the field of mains regenerator' reading this thread and willing to give you scientific explanation to back up your ' it does sound better' claim?

Nope. What I actually said was that the jobbing electronics engineers on this forum know jack sh-t about the affect that AC mains may or may not have on the sound produced by hifi equipment. They know how to build circuits and that is all. They are not physicists and this is physics.

It's basic electrical knowledge. So basic that even you could learn it!

I'll give you a clue. An amplifier doesn't actually run from the mains itself, it runs on smooth DC. It will sound the same if it was run from batteries.

Or putting it another way, if you wash your food do you believe it will make you run faster?

Of course not because your digestive system turns the food into an energy form that your muscles can use.

Hmmm... Poor analogy that one. Food chemically breaks down and changes state, whereas the AC is converted to DC in a more linear fashion. Garbage in garbage out.

Garbage AC in, completely pure DC out actually. Providing enough capacitance is used.

 

[nopiano]

It worked out to be about £2K...

it does not hold much value then..

btw, do you have speaker cable elevators?

I've used egg boxes (empty ones!) and most recently the sorbothane-type packaging that I got from some new Next curtain poles. I've never tested them double blind so cannot say what benefits they bring. It does make the cables less vulnerable to the vacuum cleaner!

Subjectively, however, I much prefer the sound of any system where the wires are tidily laid out. That is the main benefit of cable lifters, as your pic shows perfectly. They would satisfy the strongest OCD tendencies, and such beautiful symmetry is bound to sound 'tidier', isn't it?

 

[Gazzip]

I was wondering if there was any real benefit to mains conditioning/regeneration myself. Being in a university environment I thought I'd look up researchers from Electrical Engineering to see if anyone might have an idea. I was pleased to find someone with a PhD specifically in audio amplifier design. I have copied my question below:

".......One thing I have thought about is the grey area of 'mains conditioning' or 'mains filtering'. As mentioned though, I know nothing about electrical design, so I thought I would see who was in Electrical Engineering to see if anyone could help with my ignorance. I was very pleased to note your area of interest in the design of audio amplifiers, so thought who better to ask. I was hoping you wouldn't mind me asking your thoughts on mains conditioners, e.g. products from Isotek etc? To me, it makes sense that a "dirty" electrical supply can effect the sound and that filtering and conditioning can improve the sound (and lifetime of the components). I certainly get "squeeks" and "pops" audible through my TV when the fridge-freezer compressor initiates. Also, I've seen a few teardowns of these units isotek produce and they look like there's not many components in there given the high cost? If conditioning is of genuine benefit, is there any reason to purchase one of these high end units over a simple surge protector?....." And his response: ".......In general, I think that “HiFi” mains conditioners and associated products tend to be poor value for money.An amplifier that makes squeaks and pops on major power line disturbances such as compressors starting and stopping is just poorly designed and is probably due to input signal lines being routed too close to power lines, resulting in cross-coupling between the two (i.e. a “spike” on the power line results on a spike in the input signal to the amplifier, which is dutifully amplified resulting in the audible disturbance). One would hope that a proper HiFi amplifier would not suffer from such a thing. Here, a “standard” (i.e. not designed for HiFi) mains adaptor plug with built-in surge protector may help to prevent any power line “spikes” reaching the power input of an amplifier.In terms of smaller-amplitude “noise” that may be found on the mains, it is highly unlikely that removing said noise makes a genuinely significant measurable difference to the sound. However, there is the small matter of the “observer-expectancy” effect to consider. The human brain is a wonderful thing. As part of interpreting sensory inputs and converting them into sensations, your brain uses a wide variety of information to interpret said sensory inputs. This is totally unavoidable and is why proper scientific experiments involving subjective reactions of humans have to be conducted double-blind. If you buy a mains conditioner and install it, your brain knows that you’ve done so. It will then interpret the sensory inputs from your ears accordingly, such that you may well genuinely experience the audio differently to how you experienced it prior to installing the mains conditioner. Not because the mains conditioner has made a genuine objectively-measurable difference to the audio signal, but just because your brain is now processing the information from your ears slightly differently!I’d suggest you put any money you might have spent on expensive HiFi mains products towards the next pair of speakers you buy. Loudspeakers are, by far, the components with the greatest measurable impact on the sound of your HiFi....." In honesty I asked about mains conditioners rather than regenerators, but I would have thought he would have mentioned if this provided real benefit.

Hmmm... two things jump out at me here:

1) We are discussing mains regeneration here and NOT mains conditioning.

2) Your expert in amplifiers (BTW why are we focussing on amplifiers? I never stated my amp was plugged in to the PS Audio P10?) also appears to be an expert in psychology! A very talented person indeed!

 

[nopiano]

Stavvy's helpful post perfectly encapsulates standard thinking on this topic, and it may be the ultimate answer. It is certainly true that a few thousands spent on speakers makes more difference than the same money spent on mains conditioning. Transducers always make the most difference - remember turntable cartridges?

But, and it is quite a big but, someone intimately acquainted with their own system and music may well derive significant benefit from such a purchase, yet ultimately be unable to demonstrate the benefits to others. I know one such chap, and I think the display showing the perfect voltage alone would have satisfied him!

I've certainly heard convincing demos of Isotek gear in hotel shows, where one can imagine the mains is terrible, and modulated by thousands of other amps and wifi setups.

 

[ellisdj]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people

The exact same standards can be applied to your experiences. God forbid someone should try to look at something from an objective or scientific perspective or discuss those possibilities without the "I heard it with my own ears and I know what I heard" crowd having a hissy fit. Perhaps consider that the reality lies somewhere between the two poles of the argument.

Your assuming that is what people want when they visit a HiFi Forum - I dont think that is the case at all, in fact I think its so far from the truth it makes this forum look a joke - you come to a hifi forum to discuss, chat and get people opinions on hifi equipment.

If you want a load of scientific information on anything then you look elswhere - wikipedia for example as just a start - not a hifi forum.

If you want the scientific information the same people insist on writing every time, fine but then you ask for it in the Thread Title - did Gazzip ask for it in this Thread Title??? NO

Has anyone else asked for it - NO?

How many times has it been posted in this thread - About 2 Pages worth

What is needed for umpeenth time - NO

How many posts have been about the product the discussion was started about - NONE !!!

What a joke, what an absolute Joke - its Sad that people do this every time - It couldnt be any more sad than it is .

 

[Gazzip]

I feel sorry for Gazzip in this thread and anyone who spends any money on their hifi and wants to talk about it on a hifi forum - God forbid, its always scrutinised by the Same People and the thread gets ruined time and time again. However their attempts achieves Nothing in terms of advising people on what not to buy as Gazzip has proved. Good for him.

I think the people who always post should just lay off - it reads so petty and pedantic now days its just sad - the people always posting the same crap you are very sad people, I am sorry but you are. If this forum was properly moderated this wouldnt be allowed to keep happening. Not one post in this thread by anyone else with any experiences of the actual product mentioned - just pure crap from the same people.

I feel more sorry for anybody reading around on the web to get a sense of what mains regenerators and cables might actually do for their systems, positive or negative. There is absolutely no doubt that both make a difference to the sound produced, good or bad is down to the listener. Sadly however the focus/debate always seems to end up entirely in the realm of scientific cause rather than than the palpable effect.

There is a great deal of stuff that mankind cannot yet explain through contemporary scientific understanding. 27% of the current mass of the universe is as yet unidentified and explained. Why a mains regenerator, a conditioner or a cable having an effect on hifi sound is such a gigantic leap is completely beyond me. If as a society we listened to this bunch of ludites we would never have progressed beyond living in caves and eating worms.