Mains Blocks / Conditioners / Regenerators

[Deliriumbassist]

I haven't read all this thread but enough I think to get the gist. It's the same debate we have had over and over again. The rationalists argue that it isn't possible and those who prefer a subjective view say that they can hear something. I'd generally put myself on the rationalist front (I have a degree in Elecgtronics too lol) but am willing to try things. I tried a Tacima in a blind test and could hear no difference at all, ditto vibration absorbing pads under amplifiers and CD players.

All I would say to those who hear a difference is that they should remember that human perception is easily fooled. If they could hear a difference in a proper blind test then there would be more substance to their reports but I've not seen evidence that any of them have ever done so,

Chris

I've never seen a rationalist say why these things won't do anything- only 'nope' and superficial statements. Plenty of different theories from those who say it works, though. If rationalists are so sure in their conviction that mains equipment make no difference, then why don't they provide evidence to that end, just like they always ask the 'non-rationalists' for?

 

[drummerman]

I wouldn't pay hundreds for a mains conditioner/filtration but the price of a Tacima is less than a meal out so that even if you'd only need an extension block it's worth the money. A solidly made product. Add useful surge protection and it really is a no-brainer (imho).

regards

 

[TrevC]

I haven't read all this thread but enough I think to get the gist. It's the same debate we have had over and over again. The rationalists argue that it isn't possible and those who prefer a subjective view say that they can hear something. I'd generally put myself on the rationalist front (I have a degree in Elecgtronics too lol) but am willing to try things. I tried a Tacima in a blind test and could hear no difference at all, ditto vibration absorbing pads under amplifiers and CD players.

All I would say to those who hear a difference is that they should remember that human perception is easily fooled. If they could hear a difference in a proper blind test then there would be more substance to their reports but I've not seen evidence that any of them have ever done so,

Chris

I've never seen a rationalist say why these things won't do anything- only 'nope' and superficial statements. Plenty of different theories from those who say it works, though. If rationalists are so sure in their conviction that mains equipment make no difference, then why don't they provide evidence to that end, just like they always ask the 'non-rationalists' for?

The mains goes through a transformer and is rectified into a DC voltage with no discernable ripple if there are enough capacitors. Nothing of the original AC mains waveform remains, therefore nothing on the mains side can possibly affect sound quality.

 

[mmichbam]

I'm no electronics expert but here's my penny's worth.

The incoming power is an electric current, the actual sound signal is an electric current although much smaller. Is it not possible for the bigger/stronger current to have an adverse effect on sound quality by some how disrupting the signal. I have read that our mains supply can vary considerably in quality and get contaminated will all manner of nasties.

sorry about the terminology I hope you get the gist of it.

 

[TrevC]

I'm no electronics expert but here's my penny's worth.

The incoming power is an electric current, the actual sound signal is an electric current although much smaller. Is it not possible for the bigger/stronger current to have an adverse effect on sound quality by some how disrupting the signal. I have read that our mains supply can vary considerably in quality and get contaminated will all manner of nasties.

sorry about the terminology I hope you get the gist of it.

No, that is not possible, for the reason stated in my previous post.

 

[Sir Lemon]

I am staying out of the melee on this one but have to disagree with the idea that AM Audio is entry level pricing.
Upwards of £1000 for one black box is not entry level for most people.

Maybe my choice of words was poor, I did mean the entry gear within their product line, not the entry level segment that most would associate with below £500 gear.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

I haven't read all this thread but enough I think to get the gist. It's the same debate we have had over and over again. The rationalists argue that it isn't possible and those who prefer a subjective view say that they can hear something. I'd generally put myself on the rationalist front (I have a degree in Elecgtronics too lol) but am willing to try things. I tried a Tacima in a blind test and could hear no difference at all, ditto vibration absorbing pads under amplifiers and CD players.

All I would say to those who hear a difference is that they should remember that human perception is easily fooled. If they could hear a difference in a proper blind test then there would be more substance to their reports but I've not seen evidence that any of them have ever done so,

Chris

I've never seen a rationalist say why these things won't do anything- only 'nope' and superficial statements. Plenty of different theories from those who say it works, though. If rationalists are so sure in their conviction that mains equipment make no difference, then why don't they provide evidence to that end, just like they always ask the 'non-rationalists' for?

The mains goes through a transformer and is rectified into a DC voltage with no discernable ripple if there are enough capacitors. Nothing of the original AC mains waveform remains, therefore nothing on the mains side can possibly affect sound quality.

'If there are enough capacitors.' So there is a proviso, then?

Just to reiterate, I'm not doubting what you're saying, I'm just interested, is all. So, if nothing of the original AC mains waveform remains, how come some equipment picks up mains hum? And does DC rectification change voltage due to the constant change in AC voltage (as far as I know, even though it's meant to be 240v, this isn't always the case)? If so, I'm assuming that equipment being subjected to voltage that is not constantly 240v may not work to it's potential?

 

[TrevC]

Hum pick up is nothing to do with PSU hum, and amplifiers are designed to work over a wide variety of voltages. In order to be any use as a hifi amplifier and not hum it will have adequate capacitors. The higher the mains voltage, the higher the available power output if the supply is unregulated, as most are.

 

[CnoEvil]

It is my understanding that the problem lies in the lightening transient peaks that can draw up to 10x the normal current. Here are a few quotes:

Shunyata.

The key to choosing the ideal power-distributor system lies within the concept of keeping things simple and uncomplicated.... Designs that use transformers, coils and baluns are inductive and by their nature impede instantaneous current delivery. This may cause a loss of phase and time coherence (PraT), losses in perceived voice and instrument weight and overall compression of dynamics.

Placing anything in front of an electronics system that restricts, impedes or slows the DTCD of AC power will degrade the ultimate performance of the system. This is why most electronics manufacturers discourage the use of power conditioners that interfere with instantaneous current flow.

Furman Conditioners

One of the downsides to a computer style mains conditioners in a hifi context is that they current limit, so they may clean up the mains and yield a cleaner sound some of the time, when there is a crescendo or when a kick drum is hit, or indeed when anything happens fast and / or loud, a mains conditioner can act as a bottleneck and compromise the systems ability to deliver power when it's needed, resulting in a rather strangled, unrealistic sound.

Trevor79 (Technical member)

Besides filtering out RFI and stray Voltage on the neutral path, for dynamics not to be strangled Mains conditioning needs to address headroom in its supply to power amplification.

Current demands (draw) made off the both the music and its transients (up to 10x higher than the stable draw (volume)).
A normal house Mains supply on a 20A ring circuit struggles to deliver this, that's why reservoir capacitance is built into internal power supplies. The size of them and the recharge rate determines if they run out or not. For amplification to work effortless they need to be able to cope and deliver transient demands.

Now this is the interesting bit, apart from custom built, or highly modified power amps the capacitance in almost all equipment is lacking by at least a factor of 2 and often by 4!
So they are already marginal in following music at decent outputs. If the Mains conditioning slows down the supply it has an audible effect.

Whilst I don't have personal experience on the Isotek Minisub it doesn't appear to have any in built capacitance to it. The bottle neck I see is it plugged into a 20A ring main, by a 13A fused plug, which then feeds the unit with 2 x 10A rated outlets. (2 x 10A = 20A loading on the ring main wiring)
In reality you have a loading that is capped by the 13A plug fuse divided by 2 = 6.5A per power amp!
Are you disappointed with the music dynamics by any chance?

 

[TrevC]

It is my understanding that the problem lies in the lightening transient peaks that can draw up to 10x the normal current. Here are a few quotes:

Shunyata.

The key to choosing the ideal power-distributor system lies within the concept of keeping things simple and uncomplicated.... Designs that use transformers, coils and baluns are inductive and by their nature impede instantaneous current delivery. This may cause a loss of phase and time coherence (PraT), losses in perceived voice and instrument weight and overall compression of dynamics.

Placing anything in front of an electronics system that restricts, impedes or slows the DTCD of AC power will degrade the ultimate performance of the system. This is why most electronics manufacturers discourage the use of power conditioners that interfere with instantaneous current flow.

Furman Conditioners

One of the downsides to a computer style mains conditioners in a hifi context is that they current limit, so they may clean up the mains and yield a cleaner sound some of the time, when there is a crescendo or when a kick drum is hit, or indeed when anything happens fast and / or loud, a mains conditioner can act as a bottleneck and compromise the systems ability to deliver power when it's needed, resulting in a rather strangled, unrealistic sound.

Trevor79 (Technical member)

Besides filtering out RFI and stray Voltage on the neutral path, for dynamics not to be strangled Mains conditioning needs to address headroom in its supply to power amplification.

Current demands (draw) made off the both the music and its transients (up to 10x higher than the stable draw (volume)).
A normal house Mains supply on a 20A ring circuit struggles to deliver this, that's why reservoir capacitance is built into internal power supplies. The size of them and the recharge rate determines if they run out or not. For amplification to work effortless they need to be able to cope and deliver transient demands.

Now this is the interesting bit, apart from custom built, or highly modified power amps the capacitance in almost all equipment is lacking by at least a factor of 2 and often by 4!
So they are already marginal in following music at decent outputs. If the Mains conditioning slows down the supply it has an audible effect.

Whilst I don't have personal experience on the Isotek Minisub it doesn't appear to have any in built capacitance to it. The bottle neck I see is it plugged into a 20A ring main, by a 13A fused plug, which then feeds the unit with 2 x 10A rated outlets. (2 x 10A = 20A loading on the ring main wiring)
In reality you have a loading that is capped by the 13A plug fuse divided by 2 = 6.5A per power amp!
Are you disappointed with the music dynamics by any chance?

Complete and utter nonsense both.

 

[Covenanter]

It is my understanding that the problem lies in the lightening transient peaks that can draw up to 10x the normal current. Here are a few quotes:

Shunyata.

The key to choosing the ideal power-distributor system lies within the concept of keeping things simple and uncomplicated.... Designs that use transformers, coils and baluns are inductive and by their nature impede instantaneous current delivery. This may cause a loss of phase and time coherence (PraT), losses in perceived voice and instrument weight and overall compression of dynamics.

Placing anything in front of an electronics system that restricts, impedes or slows the DTCD of AC power will degrade the ultimate performance of the system. This is why most electronics manufacturers discourage the use of power conditioners that interfere with instantaneous current flow.

Furman Conditioners

One of the downsides to a computer style mains conditioners in a hifi context is that they current limit, so they may clean up the mains and yield a cleaner sound some of the time, when there is a crescendo or when a kick drum is hit, or indeed when anything happens fast and / or loud, a mains conditioner can act as a bottleneck and compromise the systems ability to deliver power when it's needed, resulting in a rather strangled, unrealistic sound.

Trevor79 (Technical member)

Besides filtering out RFI and stray Voltage on the neutral path, for dynamics not to be strangled Mains conditioning needs to address headroom in its supply to power amplification.

Current demands (draw) made off the both the music and its transients (up to 10x higher than the stable draw (volume)).
A normal house Mains supply on a 20A ring circuit struggles to deliver this, that's why reservoir capacitance is built into internal power supplies. The size of them and the recharge rate determines if they run out or not. For amplification to work effortless they need to be able to cope and deliver transient demands.

Now this is the interesting bit, apart from custom built, or highly modified power amps the capacitance in almost all equipment is lacking by at least a factor of 2 and often by 4!
So they are already marginal in following music at decent outputs. If the Mains conditioning slows down the supply it has an audible effect.

Whilst I don't have personal experience on the Isotek Minisub it doesn't appear to have any in built capacitance to it. The bottle neck I see is it plugged into a 20A ring main, by a 13A fused plug, which then feeds the unit with 2 x 10A rated outlets. (2 x 10A = 20A loading on the ring main wiring)
In reality you have a loading that is capped by the 13A plug fuse divided by 2 = 6.5A per power amp!
Are you disappointed with the music dynamics by any chance?

Complete and utter nonsense.

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

Dynamic transient current delivery is measurable and its effect (or lack of it) can be heard....if one actually takes the time to go and try it......which I take it you haven't.

Anyway, I'm out of this as it's going nowhere as usual.

 

[matt49]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

As I said earlier, if you're genuinely interested in persuading people on this forum of the rightness of your views (and FWIW, I don't disagree with you), you might want to think about modifying your tactics.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

A solidly made product. Add useful surge protection

Hi drummerman

Wilkinson Stores also have solid mains extension blocks (never had any issues with any of them over the years despite heavy usage) that don't cost much. Excellent VFM.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[TrevC]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

As I said earlier, if you're genuinely interested in persuading people on this forum of the rightness of your views (and FWIW, I don't disagree with you), you might want to think about modifying your tactics.

Perhaps you could also comment on the tactic of posting two paragraphs of vaguely techno sounding twaddle as a response to a technical matter. I say it muddies the water. What say you?

 

[TrevC]

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

Dynamic transient current delivery is measurable and its effect (or lack of it) can be heard....if one actually takes the time to go and try it......which I take it you haven't.

Anyway, I'm out of this as it's going nowhere as usual.

So you don't understand. Fair enough, but why post stuff you don't understand?

 

[CnoEvil]

So you don't understand. Fair enough, but why post stuff you don't understand?

:wall:

 

[a91gti]

 

[TrevC]

So you don't understand. Fair enough, but why post stuff you don't understand?

:wall:

That won't help with your understanding. :roll:

 

[ifor]

I suspect, but could be wrong, that there are a couple of people here who know a little about the subject, but think they know it all.

 

[CnoEvil]

I suspect, but could be wrong, that there are a couple of people here who know a little about the subject, but think they know it all.

Listening to the products in question is a good start......... :doh:

 

[matt49]

Complete and utter nonsense.

Yep! Sadly complete rubbish - you can fool some of the people ...

Chris

As I said earlier, if you're genuinely interested in persuading people on this forum of the rightness of your views (and FWIW, I don't disagree with you), you might want to think about modifying your tactics.

Perhaps you could also comment on the tactic of posting two paragraphs of vaguely techno sounding twaddle as a response to a technical matter. I say it muddies the water. What say you?

Those first two paragraphs look like marketing spiel and deserve to be treated accordingly. If they'd been backed up by some decent science, that would have been a different matter, though I'd be sceptical whether there's any decent science behind them.

Now that I've answered your question, maybe you could answer mine. Do you honestly think that your manner on this thread is likely to win people over?As I've said a couple of times now, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but the way you say it comes over as pretty dysfunctional.

Do you really think the phrase "what say you?" sounds normal in 2014?

 

[Sir Lemon]

I suspect, but could be wrong, that there are a couple of people here who know a little about the subject, but think they know it all.

There's not that much to know... and to know is different than to understand.

I'm not an engineer, but I've been a PSU editor at (probably) the largest English speaking HW community on the web (OCN), I've worked with a few OEMs on bringing more than a few products to market and I'm still part of an ad hoc think tank that does just that, plays with ideas on SMPS designs and how to bring them to market. Of course, SMPS units are different dishes than linear designs, however, the same physics (and math) applies.

I found such discussions to be utterly pointless, senseless theory that rarely has any bearing on what can be and actually is done today in the market, and even more so, little talk about the tradeoffs that each and every approach comes with... like the above mentioned capacitance inadequacy, as if it's just a matter of adding more caps and that's that (no impact on effciency and nothing like that).

I can tell you this though, about the AC related gear in Hi-Fi, the use value and the cost of production have very little impact on pricing, which although funny and fairly strange, is pretty normal for this market, having a pricing structure which more resembles the art market than any other HW/Tech market.

 

[Covenanter]

So you don't understand. Fair enough, but why post stuff you don't understand?

:wall:

But the truth is that you don't understand it! So why post it? You get my respect if you say you can hear something even if I think you are deluded. When you post psuedo-scientific rubbish you lose the respect. And running away from debate is even worse!

Be brave enough to say "I hear a difference but I don't understand how it might work". Then people like me might say "Hey! I wonder how that might happen. Let's see if we can hear something." Post the BS and we will just give you grief.

Chris

 

[pauln]

If some people believe that the difference is clearly audible i.e. that the mains block 'squashes the dynamics' out of the sound then surely the output from the amp, with and without, can be scoped and the difference, if any, observed and recorded?

If it can be heard then it can be measured. Simply posting "technical" quotes from other websites is not in any way proof or anything like it. Anyone could write reams of pseudo technical bull and call it a white paper or anything else for that matter and put it on their site.

Regarding proof, surely the onus of proof is on those claiming that their device does something that science regards as not possible? It's like being asked to prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist rather than the other way around.