Mains Blocks / Conditioners / Regenerators

[Deliriumbassist]

I tried a Tacima on my system, and as cno says "squashed the dynamics out of the amp"............

Well of course it didn't. What nonsense.

What a stupid post,

unless you have heard it in my system what on earth qualifies you say such moronic thing..............

An electronics degree.

Purchased off the internet no doubt.............

There was no internet when I got it. No need to get so upset just because you're wrong.

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

 

[TrevC]

I tried a Tacima on my system, and as cno says "squashed the dynamics out of the amp"............

Well of course it didn't. What nonsense.

What a stupid post,

unless you have heard it in my system what on earth qualifies you say such moronic thing..............

An electronics degree.

Purchased off the internet no doubt.............

There was no internet when I got it. No need to get so upset just because you're wrong.

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

Keep going, keep going, I'm enjoying this.

 

[a91gti]

Trev.

My best and oldest friend, effectively my brother, also has an electronics degree. He has spent a lot of the last twenty five years argueing against cables, conditioning and all the old favourites.

A year or so ago he bought a valve amp and got serious about his tunes. Ever since then I can happily announce that he is now in full agreement with me.

Cables et al do affect sound.

I shall ask him to join us as it would be an interesting contrast, the converted V the luddite.

 

[mmichbam]

I tried a Tacima on my system, and as cno says "squashed the dynamics out of the amp"............

Well of course it didn't. What nonsense.

What a stupid post,

unless you have heard it in my system what on earth qualifies you say such moronic thing..............

An electronics degree.

Purchased off the internet no doubt.............

There was no internet when I got it. No need to get so upset just because you're wrong.

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

There are some who say they cannot hear the benefits of buying decent hi fi equipment and are happy with cheaper midi or mini systems from their local electrical supermarkets. Doesn't mean they are right.

If you can hear an improvement go for it if not dont.

just remember if you are auditioning anything to do with mains or cables there is strict scientific method to it, if this isn't followed and you just use your ears you will be mocked, humiliated and branded as a worshiper of satan.

 

[macdiddy]

All together now " Fight !! "

 

[matt49]

Anyone who's interested in how mains filters work and whether they're worth having could do worse than look at this:

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters1.html

Lesurf was Reader in Electronics at St Andrews and is also deeply interested in hifi. (And he doesn't take the "all audiophiles are gullible idiots" line that some people here understandably find so patronising.) The rest of his site is full of interesting stuff, e.g. on speaker cables. And his book 'Information and Measurement' is a great introduction to the science of analogue and digital audio systems.

I'll admit the electronics are beyond me. But I'd trust Lesurf much more than I'd trust some bloke posting on a hifi forum.

Of course, the other approach is to measure stuff. For instance, if you think that a Tacima mains filter "strangles" the dynamics of your system, you can find out pretty easily with the help of a decent calibrated mic and some free software. If the "strangulation" of dynamics is audible, it'll probably be measurable too.

Matt

 

[Sospri]

Or use your ears................

 

[TrevC]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

 

[TrevC]

Trev.

My best and oldest friend, effectively my brother, also has an electronics degree. He has spent a lot of the last twenty five years argueing against cables, conditioning and all the old favourites.

A year or so ago he bought a valve amp and got serious about his tunes. Ever since then I can happily announce that he is now in full agreement with me.

Cables et al do affect sound.

I shall ask him to join us as it would be an interesting contrast, the converted V the luddite.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

 

[TrevC]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

How could they?

 

[ifor]

Anyone who's interested in how mains filters work and whether they're worth having could do worse than look at this:

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters1.html

Lesurf was Reader in Electronics at St Andrews and is also deeply interested in hifi. (And he doesn't take the "all audiophiles are gullible idiots" line that some people here understandably find so patronising.)

Thanks for the link Matt. I scanned it, but it was all a bit beyond me.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

How could they?

i've already said that I don't understand mains power, ergo how could I understand why they would make a difference- I have only heard what I consider to be the results. I would have thought that someone so staunchly against it would be quite willing to explain why these things cannot have an effect. At the moment however, that electronics degree is sounding well deserved indeed.

 

[TrevC]

Anyone who's interested in how mains filters work and whether they're worth having could do worse than look at this:

http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/mains/filters1.html

Lesurf was Reader in Electronics at St Andrews and is also deeply interested in hifi. (And he doesn't take the "all audiophiles are gullible idiots" line that some people here understandably find so patronising.) The rest of his site is full of interesting stuff, e.g. on speaker cables. And his book 'Information and Measurement' is a great introduction to the science of analogue and digital audio systems.

I'll admit the electronics are beyond me. But I'd trust Lesurf much more than I'd trust some bloke posting on a hifi forum.

Of course, the other approach is to measure stuff. For instance, if you think that a Tacima mains filter "strangles" the dynamics of your system, you can find out pretty easily with the help of a decent calibrated mic and some free software. If the "strangulation" of dynamics is audible, it'll probably be measurable too.

Matt

A simple voltmeter on the mains will tell you if a conditioner is causing a voltage drop.

 

[TrevC]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

How could they?

i've already said that I don't understand mains power, ergo how could I understand why they would make a difference- I have only heard what I consider to be the results. I would have thought that someone so staunchly against it would be quite willing to explain why these things cannot have an effect. At the moment however, that electronics degree is sounding well deserved indeed.

I'm staunchly in favour of honest and accurate information, not against anything. I can see no possible way that a conditioner could improve sound quality per se. That is not saying that it couldn't remove interference that comes down the mains, though in my experience quality equipment will be immune.

 

[matt49]

Of course, the other approach is to measure stuff. For instance, if you think that a Tacima mains filter "strangles" the dynamics of your system, you can find out pretty easily with the help of a decent calibrated mic and some free software. If the "strangulation" of dynamics is audible, it'll probably be measurable too.

A simple voltmeter on the mains will tell you if a conditioner is causing a voltage drop.

Fine, but that doesn't address people's subjective experiences. One of the problems people have is relating the science to what they think they're experiencing. In that respect, putting a voltmeter on the mains is no help at all.

 

[Deliriumbassist]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

How could they?

i've already said that I don't understand mains power, ergo how could I understand why they would make a difference- I have only heard what I consider to be the results. I would have thought that someone so staunchly against it would be quite willing to explain why these things cannot have an effect. At the moment however, that electronics degree is sounding well deserved indeed.

I'm staunchly in favour of honest and accurate information, not against anything. I can see no possible way that a conditioner could improve sound quality per se. That is not saying that it couldn't remove interference that comes down the mains, though in my experience quality equipment will be immune.

So there, you're saying that some equipment won't be immune to mains interference. If mains interference isn't a problem, then it shouldn't matter if any equipment isn't immune, right? But if there is indeed a problem with mains interference, then surely a conditioner, with the purpose of altering the incoming power by reducing interference, would be beneficial, and may well alter what comes out of the speakers?

 

[TrevC]

So what's the theory behind it not making a difference? Not trying to be inflammatory here, but whenever I've seen threads like these, you have the yay and the naysayers, with some of those who feel it makes a difference providing some information (albeit manufacturer's white papers and explanations), but those who say it should make no difference provide nothing except- like yourself in this thread- 'I have an electronics degree.' Just saying 'nope' and 'I have a degree' doesn't hold much credence. I don't hold to understand mains power, I just know what I've heard, and feel that, especially because I've heard positive and negative effects, something must be at play. However, if it's acceptable for those, like yourself, who purport to 'know' there is no difference and ask those who feel there is a difference for evidence, surely it's fair that I ask you about the theory as to why it shouldn't?

The very fact that some hear or see benefits and some hear the opposite is a rather large clue that the differences are imagined by the listener. Let's say we have a conditioner that is good enough for the power involved is installed, and the amplifier supplying full power means the conditioner causes an IR drop in the mains of 2 volts. Will this produce an audible change? Of course not.

You haven't really explained anything there, still.

The only negative effect a conditioner could have is a voltage drop.

OK. So why can't conditioners/power cables etc make a positive contribution to our systems?

How could they?

i've already said that I don't understand mains power, ergo how could I understand why they would make a difference- I have only heard what I consider to be the results. I would have thought that someone so staunchly against it would be quite willing to explain why these things cannot have an effect. At the moment however, that electronics degree is sounding well deserved indeed.

I'm staunchly in favour of honest and accurate information, not against anything. I can see no possible way that a conditioner could improve sound quality per se. That is not saying that it couldn't remove interference that comes down the mains, though in my experience quality equipment will be immune.

So there, you're saying that some equipment won't be immune to mains interference. If mains interference isn't a problem, then it shouldn't matter if any equipment isn't immune, right? But if there is indeed a problem with mains interference, then surely a conditioner, with the purpose of altering the incoming power by reducing interference, would be beneficial, and may well alter what comes out of the speakers?

You might hear pops and clicks from your fridge if that was the case, so adding one could be beneficial, but we are talking about sound actual quality, which won't be affected. Most interference is caused by direct radiation, for example mobile phones.

 

[TrevC]

Of course, the other approach is to measure stuff. For instance, if you think that a Tacima mains filter "strangles" the dynamics of your system, you can find out pretty easily with the help of a decent calibrated mic and some free software. If the "strangulation" of dynamics is audible, it'll probably be measurable too.

A simple voltmeter on the mains will tell you if a conditioner is causing a voltage drop.

Fine, but that doesn't address people's subjective experiences. One of the problems people have is relating the science to what they think they're experiencing. In that respect, putting a voltmeter on the mains is no help at all.

What other undesirable effects could there be? Bearing in mind it's only the mains power we are talking about what other test could be done on the mains?

 

[matt49]

Fine, but that doesn't address people's subjective experiences. One of the problems people have is relating the science to what they think they're experiencing. In that respect, putting a voltmeter on the mains is no help at all.

What other undesirable effects could there be? Bearing in mind it's only the mains power we are talking about what other test could be done on the mains?

That wasn't my point.

People have said that using filters "strangles" the sound of their systems. I understand your view of this: that it's impossible. However, you don't seem to be persuading some people. For me, the natural response at this point, having realized that some people aren't following you, would be to find a better way to persuade people, a way that connects what you're saying with what they say they're experiencing.

The problem in comprehension is, as I tried to explain in my post above, that people have difficulty relating what you say about the science to their own subjective experiences (of "strangled" sound). Telling people to put a voltmeter on their mains isn't going to bridge that gap in their understanding. That's why I suggested it'd be more productive to measure the actual speaker output, which people will be able to relate better to what they're actually hearing.

I think the problem you have is that you make no concessions to people who have less understanding of electronics than you. I'm guessing you've not done any teaching, though I may be wrong about that.

 

[CnoEvil]

That wasn't my point.

People have said that using filters "strangles" the sound of their systems. I understand your view of this: that it's impossible. However, you don't seem to be persuading some people. For me, the natural response at this point, having realized that some people aren't following you, would be to find a better way to persuade people, a way that connects what you're saying with what they say they're experiencing.

The problem in comprehension is, as I tried to explain in my post above, that people have difficulty relating what you say about the science to their own subjective experiences (of "strangled" sound). Telling people to put a voltmeter on their mains isn't going to bridge that gap in their understanding. That's why I suggested it'd be more productive to measure the actual speaker output, which people will be able to relate better to what they're actually hearing.

I think the problem you have is that you make no concessions to people who have less understanding of electronics than you. I'm guessing you've not done any teaching, though I may be wrong about that.

It will be difficult to persuade the people that have heard the effect, as the designers of conditioners themselves are aware of it, which is why, on the better designs, there are often a couple of high current sockets for power amps.

Running Springs are a well regarded company, and they rate their products for - number of Watts / Amps, of uncompressed power.

 

[drummerman]

Or use your ears................

Yes, that would be the obvious thing to do (I do) but we all know how fallible and easily influenced our own subjective impressions can be ...

regards

 

[Covenanter]

I haven't read all this thread but enough I think to get the gist. It's the same debate we have had over and over again. The rationalists argue that it isn't possible and those who prefer a subjective view say that they can hear something. I'd generally put myself on the rationalist front (I have a degree in Elecgtronics too lol) but am willing to try things. I tried a Tacima in a blind test and could hear no difference at all, ditto vibration absorbing pads under amplifiers and CD players.

All I would say to those who hear a difference is that they should remember that human perception is easily fooled. If they could hear a difference in a proper blind test then there would be more substance to their reports but I've not seen evidence that any of them have ever done so,

Chris