Cables Make No Difference - Thread for the people who think this is true to comment in

[RobinKidderminster]

We strive for improvements.to sound as some strive to improve their appearance with anti-wrinkle cream or diet pills.Hidden nuggets may exist but most will be over marketed, overpriced scams. Science is the only way to evaluate & prove with tests and trials. It aint perfect but its the only tool we have.

 

[jerryapril]

Well guys, this is not so complicated.

First, i took a tight route and installed a german made, B&Q sold OFC copper speaker wire.

When I listened to it, it sounded very much like "You've got a cotton swabs in your ears". Sort of a Arcam sound.

OK, thrown the copper wire aus Deutschland to the recycle and installed Chord Odyssey one.

That is what I've got now. Guess what, it does make a difference even a retired gunner can hear.

Say what?

Have a nice Hi-Fi weekend lads.

 

[dim_span]

Well guys, this is not so complicated.

First, i took a tight route and installed a german made, B&Q sold OFC copper speaker wire.

When I listened to it, it sounded very much like "You've got a cotton swabs in your ears". Sort of a Arcam sound.

OK, thrown the copper wire aus Deutschland to the recycle and installed Chord Odyssey one.

That is what I've got now. Guess what, it does make a difference even a retired gunner can hear.

Say what?

Have a nice Hi-Fi weekend lads.

thats what I found on my old system .... silver coated cable sounds different to copper cable ....

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Well guys, this is not so complicated.

First, i took a tight route and installed a german made, B&Q sold OFC copper speaker wire.

When I listened to it, it sounded very much like "You've got a cotton swabs in your ears". Sort of a Arcam sound.

OK, thrown the copper wire aus Deutschland to the recycle and installed Chord Odyssey one.

That is what I've got now. Guess what, it does make a difference even a retired gunner can hear.

Say what?

Have a nice Hi-Fi weekend lads.

If only things WERE that simple. What kit do you have? How much did u spend on cable? Was this outlay worth the money? Did u use better connectors and terminals? Was there cheaper ways to acheive the same?

If all these answers are 'yes' then its good to know you have seen such an imrovement.

 

[scene]

But you've got to consider the storage as well! The actual hard disk it's stored on is also important and could change the sound of your music as well, apparently *scratch_one-s_head*

Foo Foo Foo!

A totally flawed and worthless test.

Typical audiophile BS written to istil doubt and fear in the minds of audiophools who have no understanding of how these things work to get them to spend more $$$ on pointless digital equipment. 

Owing to a deficiency in the whf forums, there is no available *sarcasm* emoticon, otherwise I would have included it in my post about differences in sound caused by different storage...
Hope you didn't think I was being serious...

 

[andyjm]

One of the challenges for someone who understands this stuff is that those that don't get very 'absolute' in their arguments.

"Do you believe cables make a difference" is a daft question, and I am afraid illustrates a lack of understanding of the issue.

The answer to this question is that all cables make a difference. Some of those differences are so large that the wrong cable just won't work, some are so small that decent measuring equipment is required to detect a change.

The real question, and applicable to the hobby is "do you believe that replacing one properly specified loudspeaker cable with another properly specified loudspeaker cable will result in an audible change in the sound produced by the speakers"

The answer to this question is no. There will be changes, and they will be measurable, but they won't be audible.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

OK andy but - ARE they measureable? Are manufacturers claims backed up by measurements (audible or not)? Surely the point IS that measurement (science) does not exist - claims.of differences beyond measureable science.

 

[andyjm]

Measuring equipment is far, far more sensitive that any human sense.

Differences in cables are easily measurable. Industrial or engineering suppliers of cable include the basic parameters in datasheets that are widely available. If you are interested, you can go on the RadioSpares website where the technical spec of the cables they sell is downloadable as a pdf.

Of the 'branded' hifi cable suppliers, the only firm I have seen supply technical specs is QED - and good for them. I believe that if hifi cable suppliers published the specs of their cables, it would become clear that there is no secret sauce, and then the question is why would you pay up for the cable? Its marketing.

For speakers cables, similar construction and thickness cables have similar measurements (not surprising) and therefore effect the signal in a similar way.

Measurable difference, but not audible.

 

[Broner]

"Do you believe cables make a difference" is a daft question, and I am afraid illustrates a lack of understanding of the issue.

I think you're being overly rigid here. It's really a matter of semantics: if I would say 'cables make no difference' I wouldn't mean that they do nothing at all or that there are no differences between cables. It would be a statement about whether people are able to hear differences between normally adequate cables. Instead of being very specific all the time, I just express myself in the simplest of terms, assuming that people understand what is meant. The context of the discussion should make that perfectly clear.

I assume the same goes for many people who do believe cables make a difference.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Reading yr previous andy - I know measurements of R,C,L are available but not of measured changes in signal which is the important thing (but does not exist?).

 

[RobinKidderminster]

(damned forum!) ....

U said 'measurable changes' not measureable specs

 

[matt49]

Measuring equipment is far, far more sensitive that any human sense.

That's true of sight and hearing, but not of smell.

Of the 'branded' hifi cable suppliers, the only firm I have seen supply technical specs is QED - and good for them.

Van Damme cables given resistance figures -- at least they're on the Mark Grant website. I bought the ones with the lowest resistance. Probably won't make any difference, but the price wasn't much greater, and they're not expensive cables by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[SteveR750]

Measuring equipment is far, far more sensitive that any human sense.

That's true of sight and hearing, but not of smell.

Did you not watch the recent docs on TV about Quantum modelling? Very intersting explanation about how we smell things, and why we wosmetimes confuse two different chemicals, yet they smell the same. It's more complicated than simply th chemical lock and key model that we thought was the case. Ergo, our sense of smell is pretty flawed, and you could argue that the simple fact that we can easily consuse odour that it's way beind the "science". A dog or a cat have way way more sensitive olfactory response, so measuring equipment can probably detect down to molecular level, we can't.

 

[steve_1979]

But you've got to consider the storage as well! The actual hard disk it's stored on is also important and could change the sound of your music as well, apparently *scratch_one-s_head*

Foo Foo Foo!

A totally flawed and worthless test.

Typical audiophile BS written to istil doubt and fear in the minds of audiophools who have no understanding of how these things work to get them to spend more $$$ on pointless digital equipment.

Owing to a deficiency in the whf forums, there is no available *sarcasm* emoticon, otherwise I would have included it in my post about differences in sound caused by different storage... Hope you didn't think I was being serious...

No worries. It's obvious that the sarcasm was pouring off your post by the bucket full.

I was replying to the content of the link rather than what you said.

 

[Native_bon]

If it helps though, I can't hear any difference in my Spotify streamed (note not synced) tracks when I moved from Sky fibre to BT Infinity. Wait, there's no wires! Dammit! Thought I was onto something then

On a serious note, if there were no cable, there would be no sound, so at some point where there is cable there is some conductor of electrical signal. Whether adding more cable beyond a certain point adds anything subjective is the quetion perhaps. Perhaps we should start off with a plain single crystal thick wire of pure Copper and take it from there.

Wireless?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

How is this simple test flawed?

Connect source thru 2 different cables to oscilloscope. Compare signal (scope can display differences?) Any difference may or may not be audible but no difference is conclusive.

Flawwd?

 

[matt49]

Measuring equipment is far, far more sensitive that any human sense.

That's true of sight and hearing, but not of smell.

Did you not watch the recent docs on TV about Quantum modelling? Very intersting explanation about how we smell things, and why we wosmetimes confuse two different chemicals, yet they smell the same. It's more complicated than simply th chemical lock and key model that we thought was the case. Ergo, our sense of smell is pretty flawed, and you could argue that the simple fact that we can easily consuse odour that it's way beind the "science". A dog or a cat have way way more sensitive olfactory response, so measuring equipment can probably detect down to molecular level, we can't.

I think we're talking about two different things. Of course, it's possible for chemical detectors to sense substances at the molecular level, but they don't do this on the basis of odour. It isn't yet possible to do improve on the human sense of smell in terms of odour detection proper. Some complex 'electronic nose' systems have been developed, but they're way behind the human nose in their ability to actually smell low concentrations of odours.

You're right, of course, that a dog has a far more sensitive olfactory ststem than a human, but again that's not really relevant.

 

[TrevC]

I believe OCC Copper sounds different to Oxygen free which sounds different to brass or phosphor bronze.I believe cable construction including materials used, dielectic material, spacing everything makes a difference.I believe jumper cables make a difference rather than solid bits of metal that come with the speakers

Faith-based engineering? ;-)

Faith is believing something you know ain't so.

 

[Vladimir]

thats what I found on my old system .... silver coated cable sounds different to copper cable ....

Were they of the same AWG?

 

[TrevC]

thats what I found on my old system .... silver coated cable sounds different to copper cable ....

Were they of the same AWG?

AWG? This is a UK forum. *biggrin* One thing is certain, two cables with the same series resistance will sound exactly the same whatever the metal.

 

[steve_1979]

One thing is certain, two cables with the same series resistance will sound exactly the same whatever the metal.

Amen to that.

 

[Vladimir]

thats what I found on my old system .... silver coated cable sounds different to copper cable ....

Were they of the same AWG?

AWG? This is a UK forum. *biggrin* One thing is certain, two cables with the same series resistance will sound exactly the same whatever the metal.

Well you know I mean gauge. All the silver=bright and copper=warm bias aside, I notice people use thin silver wires for speakers compared to thick copper wires simply because of price. By this they introduce higher resistance and that may change the sound audibly, but it certanly is not a desirable result in my book.

 

[Vladimir]

I believe OCC Copper sounds different to Oxygen free which sounds different to brass or phosphor bronze.I believe cable construction including materials used, dielectic material, spacing everything makes a difference.I believe jumper cables make a difference rather than solid bits of metal that come with the speakers

Faith-based engineering? ;-)

Faith is believing something you know ain't so.

Correction: Faith is believing in something you don't know if it exist or not.

Example: I have faith that the Sun revolves arround the Earth based on scientific evidence, despite my senses telling me otherwise. It's faith because I can't really be bothered to go to the Sun and prove it for myself. When people had faith in religion, they killed people with epilepsy because they were deemed infested with demons and devils. Today I have faith in medicine that claims people who fall on the floor, shake uncontrolably with spasms, have an illness called epilepsy and it should be treated, not by stabing but with pills.

Many audiophiles have faith in hi-fi magazines and believe that the reviewer had a genuine experience from which his writing came from. The difference between faith in science and mythology is, you can always go and replicate the evidence that science says it has and convince yourself. You can go in an observatory and see the Sun and the planets via a telescope. You can't replicate myths, it happened, it's done. Which is why we all "hear differently" and reviews are useless. One day you hear a difference between copper and silver cables and the next day you don't. If it doesn't replicate each time accuratly, obviosly you gave faith in the wrong place.

 

[Vladimir]

I wonder how much would 12AWG 100% Ag cable cost, 6 feet per channel, bi-wired.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

A lot Vlad. But 99.9% OFS - someone will be able to charge a few dollars for.

Silver is about 100x more than copper so it sounds feasible