BenLaw
Well-known member
a video discussing cables:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
and a good youtube video, discussing Audio Myths:
he talks about cables from the 30 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU6_Pexoj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
and a good youtube video, discussing Audio Myths:
he talks about cables from the 30 min mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woU6_Pexoj0
SteveR750 said:You've got to see the funny side, surely? I'll bet Stormont castle was far more productive! It's clearly such a subjective assessment, neither side are going to persuade the other, so why bother wasting each other's time to attempt to do so? All of the subjective / scientific theories and observations have been posted many times! Unless of course, it's now simply a case of posturing egos...Sorry, I'm being a trouble maker, I'll go back so sleep
This is exactly the point of this thread - people openly ask for cable suggestions - now days no people post positive answers - its full of people who say it makes no difference - then the sarcasm and sillyness starts which was funny the first time. So the op gets nothing positive back and certainly not what they was after
I feel now is the time to stop this - fair play people can say they have heard no difference spend your time / money elsewhere.
But when people do post try this, i think this is better will be worth trying - there should not be the instant dismissal of this and sarcasm or the scrutiny of the wording on websites of the companies advertising - like that really matters.
How much more productive could the forum be with more people getting involved rather than thinking whats the point I know the same people with jump straight on it and ruin it so I wont bother. This is hugely counterproductive in my eyes - I have spoken to people who feel this way so I know its true
BenLaw said:
I Started the thread for the above purpose - but am happy to stay out - it needed getting going
bigboss
Moderator
ellisdj said:
If you start suggesting cables that cost more than the equipment itself, of course I will question this. The OP should also need to know the other side regarding cable difference, so an informed decision can be made.
TrevC
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
I would argue that cheap cables working just as well as expensive ones is a positive for those without surplus cash to throw down the drain.
Broner
Well-known member
ellisdj said:SteveR750 said:You've got to see the funny side, surely? I'll bet Stormont castle was far more productive! It's clearly such a subjective assessment, neither side are going to persuade the other, so why bother wasting each other's time to attempt to do so? All of the subjective / scientific theories and observations have been posted many times! Unless of course, it's now simply a case of posturing egos...
This is exactly the point of this thread - people openly ask for cable suggestions - now days no people post positive answers - its full of people who say it makes no difference - then the sarcasm and sillyness starts which was funny the first time. So the op gets nothing positive back and certainly not what they was after
The OP learns a lot. He learns that A) cables don't matter and B ) it's better not to ask stupid questions about cables. Anyway, you're aware that this is a public forum[/b] and the information provided in a thread is there for everyone to read. Due to this specific open nature of the forum, hocus pocus views about cables are bound to be countered by opposing views.
You can always start your own website with your own forum on cables and only allow specific opinions. It might also be worth to include sections on alien abductions and why 9/11 was an inside job. There's a lot of overlap.
chebby
Well-known member
It would help if there were some 'leadership' or guidance from a technically trained / tech savvy WHF? staff.
Instead we have this level of electronic understanding from a senior editor ...
http://www.whathifi.com/news/great-cable-debate-crossed-wires (scroll down a bit for the original article first).
... it's no wonder the 90+ responses were deleted!
Instead we have this level of electronic understanding from a senior editor ...
http://www.whathifi.com/news/great-cable-debate-crossed-wires (scroll down a bit for the original article first).
... it's no wonder the 90+ responses were deleted!
TrevC
Well-known member
chebby said:
They waste hours listening to mains cables when there is no point in doing so, then write about the imaginary differences.
This is what it's all about, you need to try different cables at different price points.I would argue that some of the higher priced cables do work better than cheaper ones and if people hear a difference whether they spent £20 or £100 and they are pleased with the results that's down to them,they are probably to busy listerning to the music rather than wondering where does the science comes into it .This is what the op feels. People who have tried different cables only want to share their findings and maybe help others with their results. Isn't this forum supposed to be about people sharing their experiences and opinions in a positive way. Not everybody shares the same opinion but that doesn't make one person right and another person wrong.There is such a thing as personnal preference. If there are guys out there looking for advice and help they should be able to read constructive arguments for and against, rather than a flat "It doesn't work" . Writers shouldn't have their opinions torpedoed out of the water because others don't agree with their comments or suggestions.If people have tried the expensive cables and found a noticable difference they should be able to state it on the forum without a backlash from non believers who either haven't experimented with different priced cables or if they have they personally have not noticed a difference. Cheers David
I find those debates and fights all over the internet could be very quickly over with one serious test.
Build up a chain in a very optimal accoustic room. Choose very detailed, clear, fast and articulate speakers. Like PMC Fact8.
Build up a recording unit with a group of very fast microphone in front of each of the speakers and going through AD converter. Connect all this to a with logic pro or protools.
Run a music piece with X cables..
Run the same musci piece with Y cables.
Compare results. Actual music programms like logic or protools could show us exactly what is different, or what is not different.
The debate would be over quickly. The greatest argument of the believers against the cable atheists is that the existing mesurements are made around the electric going through the cable. But what if the sound at the outgoing of the speaker is the same (or not) ? This would be a proof that nobody could really attack.
Build up a chain in a very optimal accoustic room. Choose very detailed, clear, fast and articulate speakers. Like PMC Fact8.
Build up a recording unit with a group of very fast microphone in front of each of the speakers and going through AD converter. Connect all this to a with logic pro or protools.
Run a music piece with X cables..
Run the same musci piece with Y cables.
Compare results. Actual music programms like logic or protools could show us exactly what is different, or what is not different.
The debate would be over quickly. The greatest argument of the believers against the cable atheists is that the existing mesurements are made around the electric going through the cable. But what if the sound at the outgoing of the speaker is the same (or not) ? This would be a proof that nobody could really attack.
chebby
Well-known member
If you would to experience hifi-factors, you need a hifi speaker. There's nothing wrong with their active brothers either. But active speaker don't need speaker wire. What disqualifies speaker cable test. Second point is that a lot of active pro monitors, are sounding exactly the same than a fact8. The third point is that active monitors for pro using are generally specially built to be very independant to potential generated cable issues.
After that it could be funny, yes, to check with giant PMC monitors if you have differences in connecting different interconnect cables.
It could althoug be funny to check if some brand of preamps/amps, are more problematic/sensible to interconnect than others (voluntary flawed engeneering, things that already have been reported with some brands).
After that it could be funny, yes, to check with giant PMC monitors if you have differences in connecting different interconnect cables.
It could althoug be funny to check if some brand of preamps/amps, are more problematic/sensible to interconnect than others (voluntary flawed engeneering, things that already have been reported with some brands).
chebby
Well-known member
NSA_watch_my_toilet said:
You cannot measure what people do and do not hear - while your idea of getting an excellent room acoustically as the platform for testing is the most sensible thing been said on this forum today - the rest I dont think could ever work.
The same tests are done with digital audio data but that doesnt solve anything there either i.e wav vs flac - usb cables and the printer arguement which is the oldest usb cable arguement etc.
Although I have tested recently in a room with no acoustic treatment and not very good acoustics as typical for all rooms and heard very clear audible differences between expensive speaker best cables I have heard yet and QED XT40 - 5 star WHF Cable award winner. Admitedly it was 2.5m expensive vs 11m QED brand new not that burn in exists of course but there was literally No Comparison
Broner
Well-known member
Broner
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Next time make sure it's a blind test, do it with a group of people and write down and publish the results. After many documented experiments, you are going to be the first human soul who is able to discern real audible differences between normally capable cables under proper test conditions.
Fame and glory for you.
steve_1979
Well-known member
scene said:
Foo Foo Foo!
A totally flawed and worthless test.
Typical audiophile BS written to istil doubt and fear in the minds of audiophools who have no understanding of how these things work to get them to spend more $$$ on pointless digital equipment.
SteveR750
Well-known member
ellisdj said:SteveR750 said:You've got to see the funny side, surely? I'll bet Stormont castle was far more productive! It's clearly such a subjective assessment, neither side are going to persuade the other, so why bother wasting each other's time to attempt to do so? All of the subjective / scientific theories and observations have been posted many times! Unless of course, it's now simply a case of posturing egos...
This is exactly the point of this thread - people openly ask for cable suggestions - now days no people post positive answers - its full of people who say it makes no difference - then the sarcasm and sillyness starts which was funny the first time. So the op gets nothing positive back and certainly not what they was after
I feel now is the time to stop this - fair play people can say they have heard no difference spend your time / money elsewhere.
But when people do post try this, i think this is better will be worth trying - there should not be the instant dismissal of this and sarcasm or the scrutiny of the wording on websites of the companies advertising - like that really matters.
How much more productive could the forum be with more people getting involved rather than thinking whats the point I know the same people with jump straight on it and ruin it so I wont bother. This is hugely counterproductive in my eyes - I have spoken to people who feel this way so I know its true
So if I think they DO, then presumably my opinion is not welcome in this thread? In which case, what is the point of discussion, since all of the contributors are in violent agreement?
SteveR750
Well-known member
If it helps though, I can't hear any difference in my Spotify streamed (note not synced) tracks when I moved from Sky fibre to BT Infinity. Wait, there's no wires! Dammit! Thought I was onto something then
On a serious note, if there were no cable, there would be no sound, so at some point where there is cable there is some conductor of electrical signal. Whether adding more cable beyond a certain point adds anything subjective is the quetion perhaps. Perhaps we should start off with a plain single crystal thick wire of pure Copper and take it from there.
On a serious note, if there were no cable, there would be no sound, so at some point where there is cable there is some conductor of electrical signal. Whether adding more cable beyond a certain point adds anything subjective is the quetion perhaps. Perhaps we should start off with a plain single crystal thick wire of pure Copper and take it from there.
One of the things that bothers me is that there can be a double standard. One is allowed to give a subjective opinion about differences heard but skeptics cannot give their opinion about differences not heard, or differences heard in a sighted test but that disappear in an unsighted one.
My own personal experience involves hearing differences, but then not hearing any difference when I switched various cables (power, speaker) back a little later. These days in my sighted cable swappings I heard a very slight difference at best. I can't be bothered doing double blind testing, but I suspect these slight differences would also pretty much disappear and I would not be able to pick which cable was which or which I preferred on a consistent basis.
Fair enough that people proposing cables ask that people be allowed to try it out for themselves and see whether there is a worthwhile difference, but it is also important to know that there are various factors other than the quality of the cable that will influence perceptions, etc. and if they trial something having read a review about it being bright, spacious, warm, having a darker background, or whatever, they will then be listening for these effects and be more likely to perceive them, even if they are not there. As mentioned above, price and other factors will (subconsciously) affect how we perceive the sound, irrespective of whether or not there is a difference.
(Whoah, de ja vu all over again)
My own personal experience involves hearing differences, but then not hearing any difference when I switched various cables (power, speaker) back a little later. These days in my sighted cable swappings I heard a very slight difference at best. I can't be bothered doing double blind testing, but I suspect these slight differences would also pretty much disappear and I would not be able to pick which cable was which or which I preferred on a consistent basis.
Fair enough that people proposing cables ask that people be allowed to try it out for themselves and see whether there is a worthwhile difference, but it is also important to know that there are various factors other than the quality of the cable that will influence perceptions, etc. and if they trial something having read a review about it being bright, spacious, warm, having a darker background, or whatever, they will then be listening for these effects and be more likely to perceive them, even if they are not there. As mentioned above, price and other factors will (subconsciously) affect how we perceive the sound, irrespective of whether or not there is a difference.
(Whoah, de ja vu all over again)
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