Nice mains cables

[Native_bon]

The truth here, is cables are important in listening but not expensive cables costing 100's of thousands of pounds. You can use the most expensive cables in your studio, but of what importance will that be if you got not the expertise of recording or mastering for that matter. An experience sound engineer or music producer will sound far better than a less experienced music producer with expensive cables. Even in the real world with all things being equal, you will not be able to tell the difference bewteen music produced on an expensive cable compared to a cheaper one.

I have been to many a recording studios & cables are the list of worries to many music producers. Using expensive cables in studios does not in anyway what so ever mean it makes the production sound better.

 

[Gazzip]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

 

[TrevC]

Prove that speculation has no place in a fact based argument. I can think of a number of instances where speculation is entirely appropriate.

The very definition of speculation means that there is no firm evidence to back it up; so at this stage, I think it is down to you to prove that you have special insight into the thinking of all the studios that I referred to.

Now don't be such a Silly Billy and write out 100 times - "I must not confuse proven fact with speculation".

Rubbish. A doctor can speculate about the likely cause of a set of symptoms, a car mechanic can speculate over the likely reason for the failure of an engine, and I can speculate over the likely reasons for someone that really should know better having pointless wires wearing fancy dress in a studio. Not everything can be fact based at all times so there is no contradiction.

 

[steve_1979]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

The people who work in the studios may well not be qualified but the professional companies that build and setup recording studios employ qualified acoustic and electronic engineers that are qualified. It is these engineers that specify what cables to use.

 

[CnoEvil]

Rubbish. A doctor can speculate about the likely cause of a set of symptoms, a car mechanic can speculate over the likely reason for the failure of an engine, and I can speculate over the likely reasons for someone that really should know better having pointless wires wearing fancy dress in a studio. Not everything can be fact based at all times so there is no contradiction.

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Vladimir]

Rubbish. A doctor can speculate about the likely cause of a set of symptoms, a car mechanic can speculate over the likely reason for the failure of an engine, and I can speculate over the likely reasons for someone that really should know better having pointless wires wearing fancy dress in a studio. Not everything can be fact based at all times so there is no contradiction.

As I may speculate that this on the picture is not an actual american eagle, regardless me not being the caliber of a James Bond.

 

[Gazzip]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

The people who work in the studios may well not be qualified but the professional companies that build and setup recording studios employ qualified acoustic and electronic engineers that are qualified. It is these engineers that specify what cables to use.

Agreed, but those companies have to work within budgets and I suspect that cables are bottom of the proverbial shopping list because they cannot "improve" the SQ of a recording. Other equipment can do that so will always therefore trump a cable.

The same can be said for Hifi BTW.

This whole debate gets me hopping mad. I totally get that a cable cannot improve a signal it can only degrade it. That is elementary physics. However, to boldly state that a cable cannot make any difference to a signal is completely nuts. That difference may well be a degradation of the original but if it sounds "right" and it costs £1000's to get that signal "degraded" to just the way you like it then what exactly is the problem with that?

 

[steve_1979]

...However, to boldly state that a cable cannot make any difference to a signal is completely nuts...

(Quote cut... )

This I totally agree with. Nobody is saying that a cable cannot make any difference.

However if a £5 cable which is built to the necessary specification (very low resistance etc) only degrades the signal to such a small extent that the difference is totally inaudiable then what's the point in spending any more?

 

[steve_1979]

...That difference may well be a degradation of the original but if it sounds "right" and it costs £1000's to get that signal "degraded" to just the way you like it then what exactly is the problem with that?

Nothing wrong with using a cable that's below specification to degrade the sound in a way that you like if that's what flots your boat. It would be easier and cheaper to use a graphic equalizer to get the same effect though.

 

[Gazzip]

...That difference may well be a degradation of the original but if it sounds "right" and it costs £1000's to get that signal "degraded" to just the way you like it then what exactly is the problem with that?

Nothing wrong with using a cable that's below specification to degrade the sound in a way that you like if that's what flots your boat. It would be easier and cheaper to use a graphic equalizer to get the same effect though.

I couldn't agree more. The sooner DSP makes it in to DACs the better. That would end the cable debate once and for all but in the meantime why oh why keep hammering people for tweaking their sound in a way that floats their boats?

 

[Anderson]

...That difference may well be a degradation of the original but if it sounds "right" and it costs £1000's to get that signal "degraded" to just the way you like it then what exactly is the problem with that?

Nothing wrong with using a cable that's below specification to degrade the sound in a way that you like if that's what flots your boat. It would be easier and cheaper to use a graphic equalizer to get the same effect though.

I couldn't agree more. The sooner DSP makes it in to DACs the better. That would end the cable debate once and for all but in the meantime why oh why keep hammering people for tweaking their sound in a way that floats their boats?

No one gets hammered in the great cable debate for preferring how something sounds. People get hammered for saying things like 'the new super cable I bought lifted a veil, the bass has become much more taught, the PRaT is not right and well defined'. Also, the biggie really is that sound is subjective, so, you might 'hear' all of the previously described but only you can hear it and only sighted. So when someone recommends spending £10+ on a RCA or £4+ on speaker cable your just advising people to throw money at nothing.

 

[Vladimir]

...That difference may well be a degradation of the original but if it sounds "right" and it costs £1000's to get that signal "degraded" to just the way you like it then what exactly is the problem with that?

Nothing wrong with using a cable that's below specification to degrade the sound in a way that you like if that's what flots your boat. It would be easier and cheaper to use a graphic equalizer to get the same effect though.

I couldn't agree more. The sooner DSP makes it in to DACs the better. That would end the cable debate once and for all but in the meantime why oh why keep hammering people for tweaking their sound in a way that floats their boats?

DSP cannot fix improper copper crystal alignment and lack of purity.

 

[andyjm]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Hmmn. I had the pleasure of working in the research and designs group of a well known broadcaster in the early 80s. The team I worked with were some of the smartest, most highly respected audio and video engineers I have met. They were passionate about the quality of the audio and video that their organisation produced. Every step of the signal chain was analysed and equipment either tested and bought in, or designed in house and manufactured by others when no suitable third party product was available. The loudspeakers designed by this team still have a cult following over 30 years after they were designed.

Cables were tested and specified for use throughout the organisation. This was based on the usual electrical parameters (resistance, cross sectional area, inter-conductor capacitance and so on) and a lot of additional physical parameters not found in home hifi, smoke production in the event of a fire, minimum radius bend, ease of stripping and so on. A list of 'approved' cables was maintained, and given the large amounts of cable consumed, more than one supplier arranged for each type of cable. Studios themselves were designed by a group called 'studio capital projects department'. They would select previous approved cables on the basis of the 'type', so mic cables of a certain length would be one type, structured 110ohm cabling another type and so on. I believe this is still the case. Canford (a pro music supplier) carries BBC spec cables.

The point is that cables were closely controlled, tested and specified, but on the basis of established electrical and mechanical parameters, at no stage did fairy dust come into the equation. While the guys running a mixing desk might not have understood all the parameters that went into the cable choice of their patch leads, the guys who originally specified the cable certainly did.

As for "They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiphile" - quite honestly, most of the 'audiophiles' who post on this forum are not qualified to hold the door for the guys I used to work with.

 

[chebby]

As for "They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiphile" - quite honestly, most of the 'audiophiles' who post on this forum are not qualified to hold the door for the guys I used to work with.

And therefore - by extension - not qualified to hold the door for you.

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Hmmn. I had the pleasure of working in the research and designs group of a well known broadcaster in the early 80s. The team I worked with were some of the smartest, most highly respected audio and video engineers I have met. They were passionate about the quality of the audio and video that their organisation produced. Every step of the signal chain was analysed and equipment either tested and bought in, or designed in house and manufactured by others when no suitable third party product was available. The loudspeakers designed by this team still have a cult following over 30 years after they were designed.

Cables were tested and specified for use throughout the organisation. This was based on the usual electrical parameters (resistance, cross sectional area, inter-conductor capacitance and so on) and a lot of additional physical parameters not found in home hifi, smoke production in the event of a fire, minimum radius bend, ease of stripping and so on. A list of 'approved' cables was maintained, and given the large amounts of cable consumed, more than one supplier arranged for each type of cable. Studios themselves were designed by a group called 'studio capital projects department'. They would select previous approved cables on the basis of the 'type', so mic cables of a certain length would be one type, structured 110ohm cabling another type and so on. I believe this is still the case. Canford (a pro music supplier) carries BBC spec cables.

The point is that cables were closely controlled, tested and specified, but on the basis of established electrical and mechanical parameters, at no stage did fairy dust come into the equation. While the guys running a mixing desk might not have understood all the parameters that went into the cable choice of their patch leads, the guys who originally specified the cable certainly did.

As for "They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiphile" - quite honestly, most of the 'audiophiles' who post on this forum are not qualified to hold the door for the guys I used to work with.

Would that be the same bunch that developed the LS35/A, the 'perfect' small speaker?

 

[chebby]

Would that be the same bunch that developed the LS35/A, the 'perfect' small speaker?

I'm amazed you cracked his code so quickly Holmes.

 

[andyjm]

As for "They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiphile" - quite honestly, most of the 'audiophiles' who post on this forum are not qualified to hold the door for the guys I used to work with.

And therefore - by extension - not qualified to hold the door for you.

Nope, I gave up engineering in the late 80s, although I have tried as much as I can to keep current (no pun intended). Engineering in the UK at that time was a miserable profession. I moved on. These days I am only qualified to post on hifi forums.

 

[drummerman]

Would that be the same bunch that developed the LS35/A, the 'perfect' small speaker?

I'm amazed you cracked his code so quickly Holmes.

Mmmhh, that much for 'ultimate Sound quality' then ...

As with many things in the BBC 'consistency/uniformity' has on occasions taken presidency over ultimate Sound quality.

The need to produce something which is consistent from sound to manufacture, wherever that may have taken place. I am pretty certain that extends to cables too.

I actually like the LS35/a and would happily have a pair but neutral it ain't.

 

[andyjm]

LS3/5A was designed as a small studio / OB van monitoring speaker, primarily for near-field use. It was never designed as a home hifi speaker for your living room. Within its design brief, it does pretty well.

You are right about ultimate sound quality being sacrificed for consistency/uniformity, but that does't imply that the engineers who selected equipment /cables didn't try to get the best that they could within the constraints that they had to work within.

My original point was that a great deal of thought by smart guys goes into the selection and design of professional audio equipment and its interconnection. Gazzip's suggestion that somehow posters on this forum were equally competent was frankly laughable.

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

 

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

 

[DocG]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

And now you guess what mains cables are used for ventilators or hemodialysis devices...

Tip: it is not the AudioFriendly Silver Mains cable

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

And now you guess what mains cables are used for ventilators or hemodialysis devices...

Tip: it is not the AudioFriendly Silver Mains cable

Ok.

Are you saying that EMI/RFI is categorically never a problem with Hifi?

Are you saying that it could never afflcit mains cabling?

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas