Nice mains cables

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

 

[drummerman]

... looks another one

 

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

 

[drummerman]

... perceived value another one

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

 

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

What is RMI/EFI and how does it affect sound quality?

 

[DocG]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

And now you guess what mains cables are used for ventilators or hemodialysis devices...

Tip: it is not the AudioFriendly Silver Mains cable

Ok.

Are you saying that EMI/RFI is categorically never a problem with Hifi?

Are you saying that it could never afflcit mains cabling?

I know nothing about electricity, and haven't considered buying after market cables (yet), so no personal experience either. So no, I'm not saying that. I just observe that the mains cables, used in hospitals, and the freebie cables that come with hifi devices have a striking resemblance.

The caution about EMI/RFI in hospitals is real, though less strict than it used to be (in our hospital cell phones cannot be used within 1 metre from a medical device). But no special cables.

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

And now you guess what mains cables are used for ventilators or hemodialysis devices...

Tip: it is not the AudioFriendly Silver Mains cable

Ok.

Are you saying that EMI/RFI is categorically never a problem with Hifi?

Are you saying that it could never afflcit mains cabling?

I know nothing about electricity, and haven't considered buying after market cables (yet), so no personal experience either. So no, I'm not saying that. I justed observe that the mains cables, used in hospitals, and the freebie cables that come with hifi devices have a striking resemblance.

The caution about EMI/RFI in hospitals is real, though less strict than it used to be (in our hospital cell phones cannot be used within 1 metre from a medical device). But no special cables.

There are specialist manufacturers that supply equipment to prevent just that, including shielding to mains/power cabling. Delikon is one.

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

What is RMI/EFI and how does it affect sound quality?

Why don't you read a little up about it?

 

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

What is RMI/EFI and how does it affect sound quality?

Why don't you read a little up about it?

The answer is there is no such thing because you mixed up the letters, and immunity from such interference is a matter for the amplifier design itself. Think about it, even if you use a shielded mains lead the interference is still transported along the live and neutral wires into the amp.

 

[drummerman]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

What is RMI/EFI and how does it affect sound quality?

Why don't you read a little up about it?

The answer is there is no such thing because you mixed up the letters, and immunity from such interference is a matter for the amplifier design itself. Think about it, even if you use a shielded mains lead the interference is still transported along the live and neutral wires into the amp.

The shielding is connected at one end only to the Ground wire. It will protect the length of the cable against interference through radiation. Pointless? - Don't think so but if you say so

Yes, I made a typo, well picked up

Good cabling does not need to cost the earth (yes even you Trev can probably afford to build one yourself ).

Head over to TNT Audio for just one example of a cheap but cheerful mains cable (Merlino DIY cable, I can't post links).

The problem with you Naysayers is that you are completely closed to any suggestions that could make it worth having a 'nicer than standard' cable, be that mains, interconnect, speaker or even digital.

Not least looks or perceived value, even if you ignore my other arguments

Must dash soon old chap as I have to earn some rubels (no, not for more mains cables, I am covered there )

 

[Covenanter]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Of course EMI/RFI is a real thing and sensitive equipment needs to be shielded from it. This is why hospitals like you to switch off your mobile phone and medical equipment comes with special shielding and will be certified to be resistant to EMI/RFI. However, that relates to radiated signals and not stuff coming up the mains cable and, given that our modern world is suffused with RF signals, if it were to be a major factor for hifi you would need to put all your kit inside a Faraday cage to eliminate it.

But let's for a moment assume that your mains supply carries a large RF signal on top of its standard supply. (I'm willing to bet it doesn't but you would need an oscilloscope to be certain.) The signal enters your piece of kit and the first thing it sees is the power supply capacitor. Now the thing about capacitors is that their resistance to electrical current is inversely proportion to the frequency of that current; ie the higher the frequency the lower the resistance. The capacitors in your kit are large so that they can filter out 50Hz mains, i.e. they are effectively short circuits at 50Hz and any RF signal will be shunted to ground immediately and won't get anywhere near your electronics. To take an example FM signals are around 100MHz so your power supply capacitors are 2 million times more effective at filtering out FM signals than they are 50Hz mains and they will be bloody good at that or your kit would hum.

In fact I'm willing to bet that if your kit were to be affected by rf then that would come from radiated signals rather than by mains borne signals. Actually I doubt it would be affected at all as hifi circuits are very simple and not in any way sensitive. (Audiophiles love to think that their amplifiers are wonders of sophisticated electronics. They aren't! Nothing fundamental has changed in amplifier design in over 40 years whatever the marketing departments say.)

None is this is to say that mains filters are a bad idea. If there is any rubbish on the supply it can't hurt to get rid of it. But removing such rubbish is very easy and you don't need to spend more than a few tens of £ to do it.

Chris

 

[TrevC]

Sorry, but I am still having a REAL problem getting my head around the relevance of the professional audio industry's view on the way a signal may or may not translate through a cable. They record and master sounds they are not electrophysicists. They are no more qualified to comment/rule on this subject than the average audiophile. It is a bit like asking a brick layer to confirm the best chemical make up for cement.

Ok, well a large part of my first degree (in Electronics) was about physics and electromagnetism, indeed I gained a distinction on the electromagnetism course. Now that was over 40 years ago but the physics hasn't changed in that time and I do know how electrical signals move down cables. (I can't do the maths anymore, vector calculus is a pig, but I remember the principles.) I suspect you will find a way not to believe me either but all properly constructed mains cables will, for all practical considerations, be identical.

If you can hear a difference between mains cables I am very pleased for you because you won't have wasted your money. Nevertheless it is just your perception not a physical reality.

Chris

EMI/RFI can be conducted through radiation or/and through mains cables/earthing connections.

This has been an issue with vital equipment in hospitals, nuclear industry and other demanding environments.

There is a good chance it can afflict hifi too.

Clutching Straws?

Merely saying that there is more to mains supply/cables than your simplistic ideas

Such as?

Shielding to name one ...

What effect does shielding have?

Mmmhh, that's two of you now (I am still awaiting DocG's answer)

Are you saying that RMI/EFI is absolutely no issue for a mains cable/supply and that any shielding is pointless?

What is RMI/EFI and how does it affect sound quality?

Why don't you read a little up about it?

The answer is there is no such thing because you mixed up the letters, and immunity from such interference is a matter for the amplifier design itself. Think about it, even if you use a shielded mains lead the interference is still transported along the live and neutral wires into the amp.

The shielding is connected at one end only to the Ground wire. It will protect the length of the cable against interference through radiation. Pointless? - Don't think so but if you say so

Yes, I made a typo, well picked up

Good cabling does not need to cost the earth (yes even you Trev can probably afford to build one yourself ).

Head over to TNT Audio for just one example of a cheap but cheerful mains cable (Merlino DIY cable, I can't post links).

The problem with you Naysayers is that you are completely closed to any suggestions that could make it worth having a 'nicer than standard' cable, be that mains, interconnect, speaker or even digital.

Not least looks or perceived value, even if you ignore my other arguments

Must dash soon old chap as I have to earn some rubels (no, not for more mains cables, I am covered there )

I don't have any issues with interference here so I don't need a magic mains wire, not that it would do anything anyway.

 

[shafesk]

Hi drummerman, for myself I have found Choseal mains cables to make a great difference, they add punch and weight to the sound. I have also used 2 other mains cables from Audioquest and all they do is add some sibliance into the mix. Ironically, the Choseal is about half the price of the Audioquests. I also feel that mains cables make more difference when connected to the amp than anything else. Of course what do I know, cables aren't supposed to make a difference

 

[Covenanter]

Hi drummerman, for myself I have found Choseal mains cables to make a great difference, they add punch and weight to the sound. I have also used 2 other mains cables from Audioquest and all they do is add some sibliance into the mix. Ironically, the Choseal is about half the price of the Audioquests. I also feel that mains cables make more difference when connected to the amp than anything else. Of course what do I know, cables aren't supposed to make a difference

3.7 million Americans believe they've been abducted by aliens.

Chris

 

[TrevC]

Hi drummerman, for myself I have found Choseal mains cables to make a great difference, they add punch and weight to the sound. I have also used 2 other mains cables from Audioquest and all they do is add some sibliance into the mix. Ironically, the Choseal is about half the price of the Audioquests. I also feel that mains cables make more difference when connected to the amp than anything else. Of course what do I know, cables aren't supposed to make a difference

You really shouldn't let your mind play tricks on you. Mains leads causing sibiliance, LOL.

 

[davidvann]

in all honesty trev c ,what companys mains cables have you tried and im not talking out of the box ones kettle leads i/e chord russ andrews /van der hul/ nordost and so on, i respect you dont think they make a diffrence ,but would like to the ones you have tried ,that has but you to this conclousion or you going on the science on how they work.cheers david

 

[TrevC]

in all honesty trev c ,what companys mains cables have you tried and im not talking out of the box ones kettle leads i/e chord russ andrews /van der hul/ nordost and so on, i respect you dont think they make a diffrence ,but would like to the ones you have tried ,that has but you to this conclousion or you going on the science on how they work.cheers david

Almost all the mains leads I've tried, probably hundreds of different ones, have worked correctly because the connected device has come on.

 

[davidvann]

i would like to know which brands.david

 

[Covenanter]

in all honesty trev c ,what companys mains cables have you tried and im not talking out of the box ones kettle leads i/e chord russ andrews /van der hul/ nordost and so on, i respect you dont think they make a diffrence ,but would like to the ones you have tried ,that has but you to this conclousion or you going on the science on how they work.cheers david

Why would anybody need to try them to know they don't make a difference? If I told you that sticking your head in a bucket of custard was a good idea would you do it to see if I was correct?

Chris

 

[TrevC]

i would like to know which brands.david

I don't have that information, sorry.

 

[EvPa]

My ADAMS were supplied with very nice Yung Li Co., Ltd mains cables, no complaints on my side. *smile* I don't know which manufacturer Devialet selected for the Phantoms (which are supposed to be 100% fabriqués en France), I will report here as soon as I get them. In my experience, bad grounding is the most likely mains issue and, unless the cable is somehow defective, this will come from your house or appartment.

 

[Native_bon]

EMI/RFI is real. If you are in a factory enviroment this can cause havoc to sensitive equipment, or even a Taxi cab coms can cause problems. BT uses special mains blocks to protect equipment from EMI/RFI. And yes shielded cables can improve SQ if a problem does exist in the first place.

 

[TrevC]

EMI/RFI is real. If you are in a factory enviroment this can cause havoc to sensitive equipment, or even a Taxi cab coms can cause problems. BT uses special mains blocks to protect equipment from EMI/RFI. And yes shielded cables can improve SQ if a problem does exist in the first place.

Nope. shielded mains cables are pointless. Any shielding, if any is required, needs to be around the input signal leads and if you have a problem with such interference you will hear it though the speakers. They can't improve actual performance at all. Not even slightly. If shielded mains cables affected fidelity the manufacturers would mass produce them and fit them as standard.

Ironically many aftermarket interconnects are poorly shielded, the freebie red and blacks can do better in that department.