cables and the foo fighters brigade ...

[steve_1979]

Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable

1 new from $9,999.00

I like this one.

After reading the reviews for this cable, I was compelled to correct some of the blatant errors and misconceptions that many people seem to have about it. (I do want to point out that I am an electrical engineer with many years of design experience, so I know what I'm talking about.)

In a nutshell, digital bits should consist solely of "1"s and "0"s. Unfortunately, low quality cables will distort the digital data, causing some "1"s to become values such as "0.93"s or "1.12"s or even "2.08"s, for example. Likewise, some "0"s will be changed to values like "0.2"s or "0.13"s. The problem is that circuits such as digital-to-analog converters and tri-state digital buffers can't process these distorted bits, and they remain stuck in the cable. Eventually the cable becomes so clogged that data transmission slows to a crawl as bandwidth is gradually reduced. When this happens, the defective bits can only be removed by stroking the cable with a neodymium magnet while orienting the cable to magnetic north. Few people bother to go to such effort, instead preferring to periodically replace the clogged cable with a fresh one. (Unfortunately, few bother to observe proper hazardous waste protocols while disposing of the distorted bits.)

Unfortunately, despite its high price, the Denon AKDL1 fails to solve this problem. I connected a logic analyzer to the cable and observed that the distortion was reduced, but not eliminated. While some may think that a "1.000000001" is better than a "1.12", neither value can be processed by a digital circuit. Consequently, the AKDL1 clogs just as quickly as a $10 cable. (However, the distorted bits are not nearly as toxic as those from a cheap cable.)

It's really a shame, because if the Denon engineers had simply bothered to use the skin of newborn puppies and kittens as the insulator material, the cable would have worked perfectly. So close, yet so far.

 

[plastic penguin]

Few misconceptions about what objectivists say need to be addressed.

1) We don't say cables don't make a difference. We say many cables don't make an audible difference despite what manufacturers marketing and paid reviews claim.

2) We don't want audiophiles to do DBT and ABX before every purchase. We want every manufacturer to do measurements and DBT for every product performance marketing claim and provide results of tests in public and be legaly liable about the truthfullness of those results.

Or to sum it up, We want manufacturers and media to stop selling lies and start selling real performance for our money.

How can you opose that?

I would like WHF and other magazines to run a null test between standard copper cables and overpriced foo cables to see if they make ANY difference to the sound at all. It will never happen though.

WHiFi have already said they won't run such tests. They can't as it would be commercial suicide. I don't blame them for this, it's just business.

How the individuals live with this I don't know but then they are journalists which tends to imply they have no morals.

Chris

Clearly that theory WHFI won't run such tests is compromised, as they have sections for speaker cables, analogue and digital interconnects, and marked with stars ranging from one to 5.

 

[TrevC]

It’s also been my experience that most HI Fi Nuts don’t get out much, so haven’t a clue what music should really sound like, so therefore cannot be taken seriously when making any form of subjective observation about how accurate something sounds.

Wow!.....just wow! :O

Since when has the nerdy geeky guy without the social skills and who never goes out, not been the techy science guy? (ie. those of you here who insist on measuring and abx-ing music rather than listening to it)

I don't measure anything to do with hifi, I don't ABX. I don't need to, because I already know what the results will be. I also go out a lot. Far too often really.

 

[TrevC]

Few misconceptions about what objectivists say need to be addressed.

1) We don't say cables don't make a difference. We say many cables don't make an audible difference despite what manufacturers marketing and paid reviews claim.

2) We don't want audiophiles to do DBT and ABX before every purchase. We want every manufacturer to do measurements and DBT for every product performance marketing claim and provide results of tests in public and be legaly liable about the truthfullness of those results.

Or to sum it up, We want manufacturers and media to stop selling lies and start selling real performance for our money.

How can you opose that?

I would like WHF and other magazines to run a null test between standard copper cables and overpriced foo cables to see if they make ANY difference to the sound at all. It will never happen though.

WHiFi have already said they won't run such tests. They can't as it would be commercial suicide. I don't blame them for this, it's just business.

How the individuals live with this I don't know but then they are journalists which tends to imply they have no morals.

Chris

Clearly that theory WHFI won't run such tests is compromised, as they have sections for speaker cables, analogue and digital interconnects, and marked with stars ranging from one to 5.

They rate mains leads and stuff, and waste time watching and listening to things connected to them. They report differences which cannot possibly exist and rate them.

It's nonsense and comical. >)

 

[TrevC]

So if I was to say that the sun produces all the natural light and heat on earth and subsequently refuse to reconsider that statement you would describe it as an entrenched position, whereas I would call it knowing the facts.

Technically speaking some of the heat on the surface if the Earth comes up from its moltern core as it takes millions of years to cool. There's also a very small amount of heat produced from natrually occurring radioactive decay too.

I'm just being a padantic EDITED here though. I totally agree with everything you've been saying about cables.

:cheers:

I'm off to buy some telurium Q.

 

[Diamond Joe]

What's the score?

Objectivists, one; subjectivists, eleventy four.

What about the really-don't-care... um... ivists ?! :?

 

[Covenanter]

I'm really disappointed in you. I've always taken you to be a really sound guy, ok someone I disagree with but sound. This is the most compromised test ever undertaken and you suggest it as valid evidence!!!

Chris

The test isn't perfect, but provided you believe there was no cheating involved, it does show that:

- The test was conducted blind

- There was a difference in the sound of the cables

- They were honest about the actual results, even if you don't agree with what they did with them

- The most expensive cable came out on top (nothing to do with VFM)

- An audible gap between budget and expensive cables

- There was a consistency in what was generally heard (as seen in the notes).

- Extra money doesn't necessarily mean an improved performance in the more expensive cables.

People reading this test will latch onto those areas that support their position, but if on the level, it shows some interesting correlations.

I remain incredibly disappointed that you think this is credible. I think you need to re-examine your position.

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

Few misconceptions about what objectivists say need to be addressed.

1) We don't say cables don't make a difference. We say many cables don't make an audible difference despite what manufacturers marketing and paid reviews claim.

2) We don't want audiophiles to do DBT and ABX before every purchase. We want every manufacturer to do measurements and DBT for every product performance marketing claim and provide results of tests in public and be legaly liable about the truthfullness of those results.

Or to sum it up, We want manufacturers and media to stop selling lies and start selling real performance for our money.

How can you opose that?

I would like WHF and other magazines to run a null test between standard copper cables and overpriced foo cables to see if they make ANY difference to the sound at all. It will never happen though.

WHiFi have already said they won't run such tests. They can't as it would be commercial suicide. I don't blame them for this, it's just business.

How the individuals live with this I don't know but then they are journalists which tends to imply they have no morals.

Chris

Clearly that theory WHFI won't run such tests is compromised, as they have sections for speaker cables, analogue and digital interconnects, and marked with stars ranging from one to 5.

I'm sorry my friend but please don't be silly! Anybody can sit in a room and make up abritrary scores about cables or anything else. Do you really think they actually carried out objective tests?

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

I remain incredibly disappointed that you think this is credible. I think you need to re-examine your position.

Chris

I stand by the points I made above.

Our positions are the same as they've always been, and I suspect your incredible disappointment will pass fairly quickly.

 

[Vladimir]

Guys, WHF is our host and it is kinda rude to have a go at their staff. Plus I have a crush on Verity, so shut up.

It's a shopping guide and if the market decided cables are bunch of hooey they will stop bothering writing and if cables keep plumbing, they will keep EDITED.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I remain incredibly disappointed that you think this is credible. I think you need to re-examine your position.

Chris

I stand by the points I made above.

Our positions are the same as they've always been, and I suspect your incredible disappointment will pass fairly quickly.

Do as he says!!

 

[matt49]

It so happens that I disagree with Cno about most things relating to cables etc. But I won’t have a pop at him, or indeed at What Hi-Fi, and for a very simple reason.

Cno has given lots of very constructive and helpful advice to me and many others on this forum. He’s helped me to understand what I’m looking for and to understand what to avoid. If he’s suggested things I think are wrong, I’ve just filtered them out, as anyone is able to do.

For me he represents the spirit of this forum: helpful, knowledgeable, gently humorous.

On the other hand, the cable-sceptic folk, for all that I agree with them about cables etc, have added virtually nothing to my understanding of hi-fi.

Some of the posts here, demanding that What Hi-Fi stop doing sighted reviews of cables, or publish null tests and so on, seem not to understand one basic fact. If What Hi-Fi stops following what consumers and retailers are doing, it’ll stop publishing, and then this forum, along with all its posts, will disappear.

Enjoy the rest of the thread, and try to be nice to one another for a change.

Matt

 

[alchemist 1]

I am sitting here drinking coffee, munching toast, listening to Anne-Sophie Mutter playing Mozart......and musing about cables ie. trying to get to the bottom of things.

Here is my conclusion:

There are two ways that a view is formed.

1. The Luddite Way.

This is where somebody says to you, "try this and it will make a difference"; or you go to a cable dem and are convinced you hear s difference.

Up to this point, you have put your system together by trusting your ears, so once again you rely on the same method.

Some cables are then brought home, tried in the time-honoured fashion of sticking them into the system and then forming a judgement on what is heard. The cables are either worth their money or they are returned.

All this is often done in the blissful ignorance of any need for verifiable measurements / expectation bias / placebo effect / double blind testing....none of which have been deemed necessary in any of life's more important decisions.

2. The Scientific Way.

You have a science / electronic degree in which you have learned a good understanding of how signal travels through wire. Wire is, after all, just about Resistance, Capacitance and Inductance.

Armed with this knowledge, you are quite certain that you have all the pertinent facts to know what is, and what is not possible. There is no need to test any further, and anything that you read to the contrary, simply has to be wrong, because you know better.....and in the off chance that you do hear a difference, it will be put down to placebo.

3. My Conclusion

I think both sides should learn from each other, but the positions are so entrenched that this seldom happens.

I think it very useful that the "pro cable" side are made aware of the pitfalls (expectation bias etc) and take a very cautious and pragmatic approach when looking at the purchase of cables...never spend more on a cable than would bring a bigger improvement elsewhere in the system.

The "objective science" side should not be so quick to dismiss the experience of such a large body of people ( including I suspect, at least half this forum), without at least doing a little experimentation.

I thought science was about challanging what we think we know and always being open minded enough to test something that so people have experienced.

Anyway, as you were. Get back to the fighting, with both sides doing too much talking and not enough listening (pun intended).

:cheers:

Cno

I think the Pope has got a a better chance of bringing the two sides together in the middle east on his present tour.

It's only a puppet !..............:wall:

 

[Alec]

Sorry, matt, but readers of WHFS&V? - only a minority of whom are represented here - are not demanding cable reviews.

 

[CnoEvil]

It so happens that I disagree with Cno about most things relating to cables etc. But I won’t have a pop at him, or indeed at What Hi-Fi, and for a very simple reason.

Cno has given lots of very constructive and helpful advice to me and many others on this forum. He’s helped me to understand what I’m looking for and to understand what to avoid. If he’s suggested things I think are wrong, I’ve just filtered them out, as anyone is able to do.

For me he represents the spirit of this forum: helpful, knowledgeable, gently humorous.

Matt

Thank you Sir.....and that's as it should be. It is only my intention to give food for thought, and nothing more. Everyone has to find their own path.

BTW. What is your current position on the mains cables that you have tried.

 

[matt49]

Sorry, matt, but readers of WHFS&V? - only a minority of whom are represented here - are not demanding cable reviews.

Until you show me some market research that supports your point, we'll have to agree to differ on that. In any case, what I said was:

If What Hi-Fi stops following what consumers and retailers are doing, it’ll stop publishing [snip]

Matt

 

[TrevC]

It so happens that I disagree with Cno about most things relating to cables etc. But I won’t have a pop at him, or indeed at What Hi-Fi, and for a very simple reason.

Cno has given lots of very constructive and helpful advice to me and many others on this forum. He’s helped me to understand what I’m looking for and to understand what to avoid. If he’s suggested things I think are wrong, I’ve just filtered them out, as anyone is able to do.

For me he represents the spirit of this forum: helpful, knowledgeable, gently humorous.

Matt

Thank you Sir.....and that's as it should be. It is only my intention to give food for thought, and nothing more. Everyone has to find their own path.

BTW. What is your current position on the mains cables that you have tried.

I have mine plugged in, if that's any help.

 

[matt49]

BTW. What is your current position on the mains cables that you have tried.

Yes, I was given a free mains cable -- RRP £500. As I said previously, it seemed to make a small subjective difference, but I'm sceptical. If I hadn't had more important things to do, I'd have done a null test on it. Maybe soon. What concerns me more is that the cable is extremely heavy and puts downward pressure on the power pins of the Devialet. No way do I want to damage the back panel of my amp!

Matt

 

[TrevC]

BTW. What is your current position on the mains cables that you have tried.

Yes, I was given a free mains cable -- RRP £500. As I said previously, it seemed to make a small subjective difference, but I'm sceptical. If I hadn't had more important things to do, I'd have done a null test on it. Maybe soon. What concerns me more is that the cable is extremely heavy and puts downward pressure on the power pins of the Devialet. No way do I want to damage the back panel of my amp!

Matt

It can make no difference.

 

[Alec]

Until you show me some market research that supports your point, we'll have to agree to differ on that.

It is actually I who should be saying that to you. It wouldn't prove anything either way though.

And you're asking me to prove a negative. Indeed, you're asking me to show you a lack of evidence.

 

[Covenanter]

It so happens that I disagree with Cno about most things relating to cables etc. But I won’t have a pop at him, or indeed at What Hi-Fi, and for a very simple reason.

Cno has given lots of very constructive and helpful advice to me and many others on this forum. He’s helped me to understand what I’m looking for and to understand what to avoid. If he’s suggested things I think are wrong, I’ve just filtered them out, as anyone is able to do.

For me he represents the spirit of this forum: helpful, knowledgeable, gently humorous.

On the other hand, the cable-sceptic folk, for all that I agree with them about cables etc, have added virtually nothing to my understanding of hi-fi.

Some of the posts here, demanding that What Hi-Fi stop doing sighted reviews of cables, or publish null tests and so on, seem not to understand one basic fact. If What Hi-Fi stops following what consumers and retailers are doing, it’ll stop publishing, and then this forum, along with all its posts, will disappear.

Enjoy the rest of the thread, and try to be nice to one another for a change.

Matt

Matt

It will stop publishing when it stops making a profit. That's the top and bottom of it. I was in business a long time and at the end of the day everything comes down to money. Given that Haymarket isn't the most profitable business in the world none of its publications has a guaranteed life.

What sells HiFi mags? I don't know really because I rarely buy them. They are like car mags I only buy them when I am thinking of buying a car. As a hifi owner I don't need to constantly read reviews.

Chris

 

[plastic penguin]

Few misconceptions about what objectivists say need to be addressed.

1) We don't say cables don't make a difference. We say many cables don't make an audible difference despite what manufacturers marketing and paid reviews claim.

2) We don't want audiophiles to do DBT and ABX before every purchase. We want every manufacturer to do measurements and DBT for every product performance marketing claim and provide results of tests in public and be legaly liable about the truthfullness of those results.

Or to sum it up, We want manufacturers and media to stop selling lies and start selling real performance for our money.

How can you opose that?

I would like WHF and other magazines to run a null test between standard copper cables and overpriced foo cables to see if they make ANY difference to the sound at all. It will never happen though.

WHiFi have already said they won't run such tests. They can't as it would be commercial suicide. I don't blame them for this, it's just business.

How the individuals live with this I don't know but then they are journalists which tends to imply they have no morals.

Chris

Clearly that theory WHFI won't run such tests is compromised, as they have sections for speaker cables, analogue and digital interconnects, and marked with stars ranging from one to 5.

I'm sorry my friend but please don't be silly! Anybody can sit in a room and make up abritrary scores about cables or anything else. Do you really think they actually carried out objective tests?

Chris

The honest truth is I don't know. But the fact remains is they have dedicated sections both on this site and mags, so I can only assume they've carried out comparative tests. However, how they are carried out I would like to know, wouldn't you?

*EDIT* I seem to remember about 5 years ago they invited two skeptics to the 'Towers' to listen to 'out of the box' cables and more expensive jobbies. The conclusion was these skeptics DID notice a difference. However, where these two chaps came from can't honestly remember.

 

[radiorog]

So if I was to say that the sun produces all the natural light and heat on earth and subsequently refuse to reconsider that statement you would describe it as an entrenched position, whereas I would call it knowing the facts.

No!

Entrenched positions happen when there are strongly held, differering POV, where both sides claim to have "truth" on their side eg NI ; Israel / Palestine etc and neither side is prepared to make a conciliatory move.

You claim to have a monopoly on "the truth," which I am questioning, based on a lot of experimenting / listening. I don't claim to have the answers, but I like to encourage people to try something similar and see what they think.

Your position is an entirely faith based one. I go with the science.

Trev, I believe your position is actually a faith based one. Faith in your own understanding. There may be some science available to humanity ATM re cables, but it is obviously not complete or exhaustive. Throughout history many scientific understandings have eventually been either updated, or even proven wrong. It happens all the time. Any good scientist knows this. Now I don't know the exact details, but Einstein knew that on some of his theories and mathematics, even though they heralded a new dawn in understanding, that they weren't 100% accurate, and that something wasis missing. No matter what he did, for some of his most important theories, the equations never added up completely. Sure, they worked 99.9999% of the time, but not 100%, and when you looked at the finer details. I believe this is where things like string theory and such comes into it, and is leading the hunt for the higgs particle, and understanding. When this tiny thing is found and understood one day, our understanding of all physics and chemistry could be turned on its head. And so it is with cables. You say the science is there, I say the science is innadquate, because I know what I heard. The cable I was upgrading to cost twice as much, so by the placebo ruling, it can only therefore sound better or equal to the previous cable. It actually sounded worse. Noticeably. It was like one cable was bob Marley, and the other bob Dylan. Sure, they were both called bob, played guitar and sang, but they sounded different.

However, I do agree that some kind of measurents and standardising for cables should be available.

 

[radiorog]

Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable

1 new from $9,999.00

Customer Reviews

Solved Global Warming Locally

By Daniel A. Koblosh on June 16, 2008

After I took delivery of my $500 Denon AKDL1 Cat-5 uber-cable, Al Gore was mysteriously drawn to my home, where he pronounced that Global Warming had been suspended in my vicinity.

Yes, I had perfect weather: no flooding, no tornadoes, the exact amount of rain necessary, and he pronounced sea levels exactly right and that they were not going to rise within five miles of my house.

Additionally, my cars began achieving 200 mpg and I didn't even need gasoline. I was able to put three grams of cat litter into the tank and drive forever.

What's more, the atmosphere inside my home became 93% oxygen and virtually no carbon dioxide. In fact, I now exhale oxygen.

One heck of a cable.

Didn't notice any improvement in audio quality though.

The $800 Apple iCable is clearly superior.

Rift in the time-space continuum

By George Takei on May 15, 2013

The minute I plugged this cable in, I knew something was amiss. The first evidence? The small wormhole that appeared in our living room, right next to our holstein cowhide recliner. Peering into it I could discern the snarling face of a Ferengi, likely somewhere out in the Gamma quadrant.

Then things got really hairy. Brad shouted from the kitchen that he was detecting elevated tachyon levels from our Vita-Mix, so we immediately diverted power to our forward Romco Rotisserie array. Set it and forget it, indeed.

Still no go. The wormhole continued to grow. So I did what anyone in this rather awkward situation would. I recalibrated our George Foreman Grill (about 10 picometers), ejected the warp core from our Dyson Ball Vac, and unplugged all the Magic Jacks in the house. Bingo. No more worm hole.

I guess what I'm saying is that you can use this cable, but only if you have substantial Star Fleet training.

Love that! As good as anything in viz! :rofl:

 

[steve_1979]

Trev, I believe your position is actually a faith based one. Faith in your own understanding. There may be some science available to humanity ATM re cables, but it is obviously not complete or exhaustive. Throughout history many scientific understandings have eventually been either updated, or even proven wrong. It happens all the time. Any good scientist knows this. Now I don't know the exact details, but Einstein knew that on some of his theories and mathematics, even though they heralded a new dawn in understanding, that they weren't 100% accurate, and that something wasis missing. No matter what he did, for some of his most important theories, the equations never added up completely. Sure, they worked 99.9999% of the time, but not 100%, and when you looked at the finer details...

Einstein's theory's of relativity doesn't work 99.9999% of the time. It works 100% of the time.

Einstein's theory's of relativity could well be 100% correct and so far there has never been any experiment or test which disproves it. But the problem is that mathematically it contradicts quantum theory and there is no way that they can possibly both be right.

It is not known whether Einstein's theory's of relativity or quantum theory are correct or not. What we do know is that either Einstein's theory's of relativity or the laws of quantum physics must be wrong. We don't know which is wrong because they both stand up to all of the tests that we have put them through (so far). But we do know that at least one of them (or both of them) has to be wrong.

...I believe this is where things like string theory and such comes into it, and is leading the hunt for the higgs particle, and understanding. When this tiny thing is found and understood one day, our understanding of all physics and chemistry could be turned on its head...

They've already found it. 2 years ago.

It's going to take a lot more work, time and probably another multi-billion pound particle collider to fully understand how it works though.

...And so it is with cables. You say the science is there, I say the science is innadquate...

The laws that describe how resistance, capacitance and inductance work are fairly simple and are very well understood. They're used everyday to make electronics work and they work 100% perfectly according to those laws every single time.

...I know what I heard. The cable I was upgrading to cost twice as much, so by the placebo ruling, it can only therefore sound better or equal to the previous cable. It actually sounded worse. Noticeably. It was like one cable was bob Marley, and the other bob Dylan. Sure, they were both called bob, played guitar and sang, but they sounded different...

That's not how expectation bias works. You knew that you were using a different cable so you may have imagined there was difference. Just because you thought that it sounded worse is neither here nor there.

It is possible that there was a difference but if there was this would be due to the measurable differences caused by using a cable that was inadequate for the purpose due to having an excessively high resistance, capacitance or inductance. Standard OFC speaker cables have sufficiently low resistance, capacitance and inductance that they don't degrade the signal enough to make it sound any different. Standard OFC speaker cables don't alter the sound at all. If an expensive foo cable sounds different to a standard OFC speaker cable it means that the signal has been degraded by the foo cable sufficienty to make it sound different.

However, I do agree that some kind of measurents and standardising for cables should be available.

There already is. They're called resistance, capacitance and inductance.