Timing

[insider9]

Intangible nonsense, or something you can't live without? Discuss

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Intangible nonsense, or something you can't live without? Discuss

I couldn't live without my watch *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

To start of with, you have to look what is meant by Timing....and in particular what you mean by Timing.

Here is an interesting assessment of PRaT and how each element relates to each other: http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

I'm inclined to listen to a system's reproduction as a whole and look for cogency and realism.

If the speakers are not controlled properly, the cones don't start and stop quickly, effing up the timing and slurring (for example) stick strikes on drums, into an inarticulate mess....a bit like paint running on a picture, blurring the lines.

 

[insider9]

For me Timing is what creates rhythmic coherence. I'm sure you remember from Hegel review how important it is to me.

However, I'm wondering how sensitive others are to it and how it matters to you.

 

[Vladimir]

I find it important. Good control over drivers start and stop. Complete and natural evolving transients. However, certain amps do well at doing a bad job, if you know what I mean. They present music holistically, not for picking appart things. And some people don't care for "PRaT". There's an amp for everyone.

The fly in my porridge. Considering Naim has terrible control over drivers, yet is deemed as a PRaT master, I honestly don't know what that term is suposed to mean or sound. I stick to "separation" and "transients" to describe things. I also like "tracking" and "peaky".

 

[insider9]

I'm inclined to listen to a system's reproduction as a whole and look for cogency and realism.

If the speakers are not controlled properly, the cones don't start and stop quickly, effing up the timing and slurring (for example) stick strikes on drums, into an inarticulate mess....a bit like paint running on a picture, blurring the lines.

I seem to lack interest very quickly if timing is poor.

 

[CnoEvil]

For me Timing is what creates rhythmic coherence. I'm sure you remember from Hegel review how important it is to me.

However, I'm wondering how sensitive others are to it and how it matters to you.

When you hear a system that has proper control over the speakers.....it gives a very clean, clear, tight presentation of instruments and individual notes/drum beats etc, it's very hard to go back to a presentation that is like looking through a misted up windscreen of a car; or going from a 4k TV to an analogue CRT one.

 

[insider9]

When you hear a system that has proper control over the speakers.....it gives a very clean, clear, tight presentation of instruments and individual notes/drum beats etc, it's very hard to go back to a presentation that is like looking through a misted up windscreen of a car; or going from a 4k TV to an analogue CRT one.

Hmmm... I agree with Vlad's comment regarding Naim. Naim is not like Hegel with driver control, but still has excellent timing. Densen too not very tight but sooo good timing wise.

But I'm starting to think it's much more than this. And starting to suspect source being at fault in many cases!

 

[CnoEvil]

When you hear a system that has proper control over the speakers.....it gives a very clean, clear, tight presentation of instruments and individual notes/drum beats etc, it's very hard to go back to a presentation that is like looking through a misted up windscreen of a car; or going from a 4k TV to an analogue CRT one.

Hmmm... I agree with Vlad's comment regarding Naim. Naim is not like Hegel with driver control, but still has excellent timing. Densen too not very tight but sooo good timing wise.

But I'm starting to think it's much more than this. And starting to suspect source being at fault in many cases!

Personally, I find the whole correlation between Pace, Rhythm and Timing rather confusing. Are you sure that the Naim doesn't have good Pace, rather than good Timing. *unknw*

I think I like Vlad's assesment better, as it's less confusing. Personally, I like Control, Clarity, Separation and speed of Transient Response.

 

[Vladimir]

It's definitely not a musical term or technical jargon. It's something we or some marketing pro made up, so it's malleable in meaning like most memes. How about amps that are puffy and juicy? Clicky

But from what you both described in your posts, I agree, that is important. I wouldn't throw the baby with the bathwater if I find an amp I really really like and it had mediocre 'timing'. However, amps with good 'PRaT' make me want to turn them up louder. That's my tried and true litmus test.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's definitely not a musical term or technical jargon. It's something we or some marketing pro made up, so it's malleable in meaning like most memes. How about amps that are puffy and juicy? Clicky

But from what you both described in your posts, I agree, that is important. I wouldn't throw the baby with the bathwater if I find an amp I really really like and it had mediocre 'timing'. However, amps with good 'PRaT' make me want to turn them up louder. That's my tried and true litmus test.

Well that rules Naim out for me, as I like it even less when it's turned up.

 

[insider9]

Ok, here's how I'd describe the following brands based on Pace (P), Rhytm (R) and Timing (T) and these are my personal assessments. Not sure if this will help in any way to differentiate.

Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good

Naim - (P) higher than average; (R) excellent ; (T) excellent

Densen - (P) close to perfect; (R) excellent ; T excellent

Hegel - (P) higher than average; (R) excellent ; (T) excellent

Leema - (P) excellent ; (R) excellent ; (T) excellent

Arcam - (P) slower than average; (R) very good (T) average

Cno, your comments about Naim could be down to it's fierce pace.

 

[Vladimir]

Aparently it is more of a source thing, insider.

System Hierarchy and "Tune-Dem"
Before the launch of the LP12 vinyl record player, conventional wisdom in the hi-fi community was that the loudspeaker was the most important part of a hi-fi system. Linn championed a "source-first" doctrine, arguing that, whilst a system was only as good as its weakest link, the most important part of any system was the source: Linn marketing cited the computing analogy "Garbage In, Garbage Out" - information which was lost at the outset was gone for good and could not be recovered, however good another component along the chain was, and that the it was therefore better to devote attention (and money) to devices earlier in the chain than later. The hierarchy has the following main stages:

- Source: the device extracting the music from the media (turntable, CD or radio). This device must carefully extract all possible information from the media; if this is not done, then musical information is permanently lost and cannot be recovered by the amplification or loudspeakers.

- Control: a device for providing control over the sources, originally switching between sources, and volume, but latterly including surround-sound processing and other system control functions. The control device must faithfully deal with incoming signals and pass the best possible signal along the chain to the playback components.

- Playback: components which convert the musical signal into audible sound: essentially amplifiers and speakers. The best that these components can do is to reproduce the incoming signal from the Control component, and cannot improve the sound.

Linn holds that within the source stage, turntable components have its own hierarchy. The turntable itself is said to be the most important component, as it must provide mechanical stability and accuracy. The tone-arm is next, followed by the cartridge.

Through use of the "tune-dem" - a method for hearing differences between components by attempting simply to follow the tune - Linn emphasises the importance of this system hierarchy. The launch of improvements to Linn's turntable, the LP12 SE upgrades (Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin 2) have seen a resurgence of the tune-dem in demonstrations, since lesser tone-arms are said to outperform the previous flagship tone-arm, the Ekos, when used with a Keel-upgraded LP12, showing thereby the importance of the source-first approach. However, this "tune-dem" approach has proved controversial with retailers and customers because it involves repeatedly playing only very small sections (no more than ten seconds) of music to the listener, and many have criticised Linn for their insistence that this approach is adhered to.

Linn states that the most important job for a hi-fi system is to reveal the music, and the system's success in practice can be judged by how well the tune is revealed. Whereas many hi-fi companies have promoted electrical specifications as indicative of their products' performance, Linn has focused on its products' ability to reproduce the elements of music as judged subjectively - sometimes referred to as "PRAT" for pace, rhythm and timing - or, in Linn's terminology, "pitch accuracy".

Do you like turning up your Linn amp, Cno?

 

[insider9]

One of my pet hates of vinyl. Big reason I won't have a vinyl based system. Change the speed of the record and the pitch changes. Not only it's slower but lower. Even worse if the speed is not a constant speed and often isn't. I wonder how people put up with this...*scratch_one-s_head*

 

[Vladimir]

Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good

I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.

Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.

 

[CnoEvil]

Do you like turning up your Linn amp, Cno?

I don't like (or own) any current Linn Amp. The more expensive the Linn Amp, the less I like it.

I used to own the Kairn/LK100, which I did like and was happy to turn up, as it was more "musical" and inviting...whereas I find current Linn amps rather cold and uninvolving...and the more expensive they get, the more cold and uninvolving they become. *unknw*

My AMS35i had everything you could wish for in an amp...except power usage and outright power into less sensitive speakers. I reluctantly traded it in when I bought some Harbeths, which I currently drive with the Class G Arcam AVR600 (until I see something else I fancy).

 

[insider9]

Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good

I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.

Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.

That means you need better Timing *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.

I think PRaT is more applicable to the natural flow of audiophile vocabulary, than any Hifi component. *biggrin*

 

[CnoEvil]

Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good

I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.

Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.

That means you need better Timing *biggrin*

Snap!

 

[Vladimir]

Do you like turning up your Linn amp, Cno?

I don't like (or own) any current Linn Amp. The more expensive the Linn Amp, the less I like it.

I used to own the Kairn/LK100, which I did like and was happy to turn up, as it was more "musical" and inviting...whereas I find current Linn amps rather cold and uninvolving...and the more expensive they get, the more cold and uninvolving they become. *unknw*

My AMS35i had everything you could wish for in an amp...except power usage and outright power into less sensitive speakers. I reluctantly traded it in when I bought some Harbeths, which I currently drive with the Class G Arcam AVR600 (until I see something else I fancy).

Ah. Such are the trends these days. Colder, brighter, analytical, detailed, tense. But I can appreciate that kind of sound with well recorded, produced and mastered music.

 

[Vladimir]

Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good

I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.

Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.

That means you need better Timing *biggrin*

Enter Technics! Small, Japanese, Fast, Precise, loves working Hard with difficult speakers.

 

[insider9]

I actually have a little Technics downstairs, with Technics speakers. Lovely little thing.

So are we saying that Timing is mostly amp dependent?

 

[Vladimir]

Surely source first, as Linn describes it. But you can probably look for PRaT in every component.

 

[Vladimir]

I actually have a little Technics downstairs, with Technics speakers. Lovely little thing.

That auto title generator script really cuts of sentances at the worst possible contextual way...

 

[insider9]

I actually have a little Technics downstairs, with Technics speakers. Lovely little thing.

That auto title generator script really cuts of sentances at the worst possible contextual way...

*ROFL*

I'm a grower not a shower