insider9 said:
It would be interesting to know what percentage Source and Speakers play....and indeed the relationship between the specs of Amp and type/spec of Speaker (Sealed/TL/Reflex/Electrostatic/Horn)
It would be interesting to know what percentage Source and Speakers play....and indeed the relationship between the specs of Amp and type/spec of Speaker (Sealed/TL/Reflex/Electrostatic/Horn)
CnoEvil said:
Interesting right?
One of the reasons why I started the thread. Up till now I associated PRaT mainly with amplifiers. Leema already gave me some food for thought when it came to sources. Hegel as a source actually gave the best PRaT and dynamics and paired with Leema extremely well even if it didn't do the audiophile things as well as other sources I've used.
Using Esoteric for the last few days was very interesting. I'm not sure how you reacted to my thoughts but they were not exactly enthusiastic...
So what happened?
Does this thread win the "Audiophile Naval Gazing" award of the year to date? *scratch_one-s_head*
If so, that's quite an achievement. *good*
If so, that's quite an achievement. *good*
nopiano
Well-known member
I’ve never got all the PRAT twaddle. As for playing ten seconds excerpts, well...as Linn admits, many folk struggle with that, and I’m one of them.
The best bit of the extract from Linn that Vlad kindly quoted above was that they translate it back to ‘pitch accuracy’. That to me is 100% a mechanical thing, and of course belt driven turntables are the worst at that. A cheap direct drive from three decades ago will do better, never mind the latest - amazing - Technics turntables. Completely inapplicable to amps or digital therefore...although digital done bad can sound “disorganised”, a current WHF favourite term. But then that’s maybe due to jitter. And jitter is bad timing!
Ok, so maybe timing matters. But it’s not something I ever hear in isolation, unlike soundstage or separation or harmonic accuracy, or ambience....
The best bit of the extract from Linn that Vlad kindly quoted above was that they translate it back to ‘pitch accuracy’. That to me is 100% a mechanical thing, and of course belt driven turntables are the worst at that. A cheap direct drive from three decades ago will do better, never mind the latest - amazing - Technics turntables. Completely inapplicable to amps or digital therefore...although digital done bad can sound “disorganised”, a current WHF favourite term. But then that’s maybe due to jitter. And jitter is bad timing!
Ok, so maybe timing matters. But it’s not something I ever hear in isolation, unlike soundstage or separation or harmonic accuracy, or ambience....
A: "Timing in music refers to the ability to "keep time" accurately and to synchronise to an ensemble, as well as to expressive timing—subtle adjustment of note or beat duration, or of tempo, for aesthetic effect."
B: "Timing is the accuracy of reproduction of a wavefront comprising many frequencies. Hence a strike of stick on ride cymbal simultaneous with the other stick on the floor-tom should arrive at the hifi listener's ears in the same relationship as they would had the listener been sitting in front of the drum kit rather than their loudspeakers."
Can you guess which one of these is marketing meme that stuck among hobbyists?
B: "Timing is the accuracy of reproduction of a wavefront comprising many frequencies. Hence a strike of stick on ride cymbal simultaneous with the other stick on the floor-tom should arrive at the hifi listener's ears in the same relationship as they would had the listener been sitting in front of the drum kit rather than their loudspeakers."
Can you guess which one of these is marketing meme that stuck among hobbyists?
CnoEvil said:
This thread should have a PG certificate
Anyway, I've been using in-built DAC in the Esoteric and eventhough I'm really impressed with many things about the amp. I didn't fall in love with it. And my mate just called me bonkers. How can you not love a £10k beast? Timing... was my answer. Intangible really, or is it?
So what's changed? It happens that the DAC has 5 settings. Off and 4 filters. I've not tried them till today. Tried the first one, nope. Second and third, nope. Last one... bliss *dance4* That's what has been missing.
Now I wonder if that's what Linn sources do for you Cno. If Timing is right it just sounds right. Your feet are tapping, you move in a chair, every limb can do something different but it's all just one thing. There's no other way to put it.
Romulus
Well-known member
Timing it will be the same whether music played via High End HiFi or a workman's small screechy transistor radio. All this PRAT is simply how the music is presented by the HiFi gear itself, not the musicians. Sometimes I hear certain Jazz pieces via Naim gear and it made me giggle, it was racing in a farcical way, it highlighted to me how much Naim contrive to make this PRAT as opposed to how the piece was intended to be heard by the composer.
nopiano said:
Could well be. Interesting observation. I think timing isn't so much something you hear, but feel. Much easier to spot when it's not there. I wonder how sensitive we all are. I know I'm more sensitive than my mate. It also matters more to me than him.
Having owned I22 ,I'm sure your I32 is spot on when it comes to PRaT.
Perhaps Linn were giving technical matters some music related names. Maybe to make it more in sync with their philosophy of listening to judge end results instead of reverse engineer and measuring, thus reaching the less technical crowd. In the same spirit as the quote in Cno's signature.
Romulus said:
A bit like having its own in-built conductor, who likes to push the music on at a good pace...a bit like Simon Rattle's version of Carmina Burana.
nopiano
Well-known member
Yes, I think they are trying to make listening and believing your own ears ok, rather than worrying you don’t have golden ears or some imagined special training. But I fear it is often abused by dealers, who self-consciously jerk their leg or foot as though responding to the excellent Prat, when sometimes they probably can’t even clap in time!Vladimir said:
The irony for me is that I like Linn sources very much. I used to own a Sondek, in fact I had two over the years. And I like my Sneaky. The best digital I ever heard in a normal home was a Klimax DS, though in a shop and at a show I think dcs bested it.
nopiano
Well-known member
Yes, it is probably more of a feeling that “something’s not right” in my case. My system is probably one of the more energetic combinations, without being too characterful, in fact being pretty neutral to my ears.insider9 said:
nopiano said:
I have heard DCS on several occasions, both in musical evenings and at shows.....and each time I have found it very impressive in the HiFi sense, but less so in the musically involvement sense.
nopiano
Well-known member
I had felt that too Cno. But last year I heard the top DCS stack at Stone Audio in Dorchester, via a sublime Gamut pre, power and speakers. Then at the Hi-Fi News show in Windsor, via d’Agostino Momentum and Wilson Audio Alexia 2s. Both times it sounded quite exceptional.CnoEvil said:
CnoEvil said:
+1
Definitely one of the top 3 or 4 things I look for when auditioning. You can usually tell if a system's got its timing sorted by your physical response: tapping feet, ear-to-ear smirk. For me, that sense of musicality and liveliness is why you'd want to listen to a half decent system in the first place. If it can't convey that sense of fun from the music, you might aswell listen to music on your soundbar.
You don't have to spend wads of cash for decent timing: my old Cambridge Azur 640A circa 2004 was excellent at it, although it could tip over into shrill with certain instruments. What I love about my Anthem is that it has all the timing I enjoyed about the Cambridge but it has an effortless mercurial quality too: no harshness, but retaining all the fun. I'm very grateful to have found my perfect amp.
Timing is also a key reason I'd really struggle to ever replace my speakers and why I continue to mourn the loss of Ruark as a speaker manufacturer some 12 years after they moved into DAB radios. Their timing and fun were outstanding. I've heard very few modern speakers that are as sorted with timing, but also have naturalness of tone. Some Neats, Quads and PMC's I've heard have got close, but only close.
nopiano said:
Now that might explain it.
I have heard it with top of the range VTL and Naim (not Statement) amps...both times were into Focal Mystro Utopia with the former/Scala Utopia with the latter. I also heard them with expensive Tannoys and I think Belles Amp.
The sound with VTL was much better than with Naim.
I suspect, given what you heard, it might be a speaker thing....but Linn have now raised the bar with their current Klimax.
Nice, I don't think I've heard any Ruark speakers, nor Anthem amps. Don't think they're on either list, Cno.
And yes it all translates to musicality. I know I'm listening to a wrong system if I'm still.
And yes it all translates to musicality. I know I'm listening to a wrong system if I'm still.
insider9 said:
IIRC Ruark would be on the warmer, more musical end of the spectrum....but they're not no the list, as they they are no longer in business. Leeps can confirm.
I think Anthem exclusively makes AV amps, so also not on the list.
Anthem has one integrated on their website and it looks like a beast. Also a couple of stereo power amps and a pre.
Plus a 1kW mono bloc *shok*
Plus a 1kW mono bloc *shok*
insider9 said:
I did hear their very expensive AV Processor/AV Power Amp. Highly impressive for AV, but less musical for 2 Channel than the Arcam Processor/Power Amp (imo).
I wouldn't have a clue where to put an Anthem Stereo amp...I've never read a review, or read about anyone who owns one. If it sounds like their AV amp, it would be fairly neutral, with little or no edginess.
drummerman said:
It can certainly come into the buying of it. *biggrin*
IIRC You got a great deal. *yahoo*
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