insider9 said:Intangible nonsense, or something you can't live without? Discuss
CnoEvil said:I'm inclined to listen to a system's reproduction as a whole and look for cogency and realism.
If the speakers are not controlled properly, the cones don't start and stop quickly, effing up the timing and slurring (for example) stick strikes on drums, into an inarticulate mess....a bit like paint running on a picture, blurring the lines.
insider9 said:For me Timing is what creates rhythmic coherence. I'm sure you remember from Hegel review how important it is to me.
However, I'm wondering how sensitive others are to it and how it matters to you.
CnoEvil said:When you hear a system that has proper control over the speakers.....it gives a very clean, clear, tight presentation of instruments and individual notes/drum beats etc, it's very hard to go back to a presentation that is like looking through a misted up windscreen of a car; or going from a 4k TV to an analogue CRT one.
insider9 said:CnoEvil said:When you hear a system that has proper control over the speakers.....it gives a very clean, clear, tight presentation of instruments and individual notes/drum beats etc, it's very hard to go back to a presentation that is like looking through a misted up windscreen of a car; or going from a 4k TV to an analogue CRT one.
Hmmm... I agree with Vlad's comment regarding Naim. Naim is not like Hegel with driver control, but still has excellent timing. Densen too not very tight but sooo good timing wise.
But I'm starting to think it's much more than this. And starting to suspect source being at fault in many cases!
Vladimir said:It's definitely not a musical term or technical jargon. It's something we or some marketing pro made up, so it's malleable in meaning like most memes. How about amps that are puffy and juicy? Clicky
But from what you both described in your posts, I agree, that is important. I wouldn't throw the baby with the bathwater if I find an amp I really really like and it had mediocre 'timing'. However, amps with good 'PRaT' make me want to turn them up louder. That's my tried and true litmus test.
System Hierarchy and "Tune-Dem"
Before the launch of the LP12 vinyl record player, conventional wisdom in the hi-fi community was that the loudspeaker was the most important part of a hi-fi system. Linn championed a "source-first" doctrine, arguing that, whilst a system was only as good as its weakest link, the most important part of any system was the source: Linn marketing cited the computing analogy "Garbage In, Garbage Out" - information which was lost at the outset was gone for good and could not be recovered, however good another component along the chain was, and that the it was therefore better to devote attention (and money) to devices earlier in the chain than later. The hierarchy has the following main stages:
- Source: the device extracting the music from the media (turntable, CD or radio). This device must carefully extract all possible information from the media; if this is not done, then musical information is permanently lost and cannot be recovered by the amplification or loudspeakers.
- Control: a device for providing control over the sources, originally switching between sources, and volume, but latterly including surround-sound processing and other system control functions. The control device must faithfully deal with incoming signals and pass the best possible signal along the chain to the playback components.
- Playback: components which convert the musical signal into audible sound: essentially amplifiers and speakers. The best that these components can do is to reproduce the incoming signal from the Control component, and cannot improve the sound.
Linn holds that within the source stage, turntable components have its own hierarchy. The turntable itself is said to be the most important component, as it must provide mechanical stability and accuracy. The tone-arm is next, followed by the cartridge.
Through use of the "tune-dem" - a method for hearing differences between components by attempting simply to follow the tune - Linn emphasises the importance of this system hierarchy. The launch of improvements to Linn's turntable, the LP12 SE upgrades (Keel, Ekos SE and Trampolin 2) have seen a resurgence of the tune-dem in demonstrations, since lesser tone-arms are said to outperform the previous flagship tone-arm, the Ekos, when used with a Keel-upgraded LP12, showing thereby the importance of the source-first approach. However, this "tune-dem" approach has proved controversial with retailers and customers because it involves repeatedly playing only very small sections (no more than ten seconds) of music to the listener, and many have criticised Linn for their insistence that this approach is adhered to.
Linn states that the most important job for a hi-fi system is to reveal the music, and the system's success in practice can be judged by how well the tune is revealed. Whereas many hi-fi companies have promoted electrical specifications as indicative of their products' performance, Linn has focused on its products' ability to reproduce the elements of music as judged subjectively - sometimes referred to as "PRAT" for pace, rhythm and timing - or, in Linn's terminology, "pitch accuracy".
insider9 said:Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good
Vladimir said:Do you like turning up your Linn amp, Cno?
Vladimir said:insider9 said:Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good
I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.
Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.
Vladimir said:Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.
insider9 said:Vladimir said:insider9 said:Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good
I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.
Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.
That means you need better Timing *biggrin*
CnoEvil said:Vladimir said:Do you like turning up your Linn amp, Cno?
I don't like (or own) any current Linn Amp. The more expensive the Linn Amp, the less I like it.
I used to own the Kairn/LK100, which I did like and was happy to turn up, as it was more "musical" and inviting...whereas I find current Linn amps rather cold and uninvolving...and the more expensive they get, the more cold and uninvolving they become. *unknw*
My AMS35i had everything you could wish for in an amp...except power usage and outright power into less sensitive speakers. I reluctantly traded it in when I bought some Harbeths, which I currently drive with the Class G Arcam AVR600 (until I see something else I fancy).
insider9 said:Vladimir said:insider9 said:Roksan - (P) higher than average; (R) very good; (T) very good
I found the Roksan Kandy K2 very Juicy, slightly Puffy and easy to get Wet with certain material played. This synergized well with my predominantely Steely sounding Canton speakers, but not so much with the Tubby B&Ws. The Caspian M2 has a different mood, way more PRaT oriented rather than JPaW.
Hey, I think I'm doing well with this special audiophile vocabulary. Needs bit more practice to get it flowing naturally.
That means you need better Timing *biggrin*
insider9 said:I actually have a little Technics downstairs, with Technics speakers. Lovely little thing.
Vladimir said:insider9 said:I actually have a little Technics downstairs, with Technics speakers. Lovely little thing.
That auto title generator script really cuts of sentances at the worst possible contextual way...