The Blind (Mis) Leading the Blind

[Anonymous]

Based on what I read and hear about cable sceptics or cable devotees, the following people types can be easily recognised:

[*]Those who rely on scientific tests, where things are measured and compared via appropriately sensitive instrumentation
[*]Those who discount the evidence of scientific tests, where things are measured and compared via appropriately sensitive instrumentation
[*]Those who have fantastic hearing who can hear the subtlest changes in tone, pitch, timbre etc. etc.
[*]Those who have fantastic hearing who can't hear the subtlest changes in tone, pitch, timbre etc. etc.
[*]Those who have dreadful hearing who can't hear the subtlest changes in tone, pitch, timbre etc. etc.
[*]Those who have dreadful hearing who can hear the subtlest changes in tone, pitch, timbre etc. etc.
[*]The delusional

 

[chebby]

1. Which are you?

2. Which type would you have everyone else be - ideally?

 

[Anonymous]

I am actually quite sceptical of cable claims. Most speaker cables use 99.999999% pure copper of varying thicknesses. So how can there be a difference? I also believe that science can measure what comes out of a speaker pretty accurately.

However, I cannot be 100% sure that cables make no difference; the issue for me is that the ear takes in a noise, and relays it to the brain. This is true of all of us - the question is whether or not, unlike a scientific instrument, in the process of converting the signal to something the brain interprets as sound, there are differences between us. So even if two people hear something that a scientific instrument interprets as being one particular sound, they still hear it slightly differently, because of the organic differences in their hearing.

Does this make sense? What I'm saying is that even if cables are actually no different on a scientific level, the differences in our hearing account for the perceived differences in cables. This would explain why science and people can both be right about cables.

 

[Terryff]

Here is my half penneth worth:

Science can detect all it wants, the average listener probably would not, certainly not to the point of forking out £300 on an interconnect....

There are as many different levels of hearing ability in people as skin tones, in that some people here one thing, others dont, or to less of a degree...

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ÿ

Therefore everything is relative and individual, making blind test only amusing and interesting rather than authorative....

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(hides from Andrew)

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[RodhasGibson]

Thanks Rik and Smithy, Just fancied a little light relief from the Topic. I still go my own route with all cables, that is I trust my ears and or eyes. After all I am the one who has to part with the cash.

I always go where Angels fear to tread.

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:
RodhasGibson:Hi Rik, Look seeing as you are into the area of IT, That interests me can you explain to me this:- If I decide to upgrade my present Laptop, How do I wipe it Clean? before selling it on. [ie wipe all passwords and personal data etc.] Any good sound advice would be welcome. Thanks Rod.

A touch off topic there Rod. But basically the safest thing to do is use the operating disc to boot from. Run a FULL format and reinstall the operating system

Also delete the existing partition and re-partition the disc.

 

[professorhat]

aliEnRIK:
RodhasGibson:Hi Rik, Look seeing as you are into the area of IT, That interests me can you explain to me this:- If I decide to upgrade my present Laptop, How do I wipe it Clean? before selling it on. [ie wipe all passwords and personal data etc.] Any good sound advice would be welcome. Thanks Rod.

A touch off topic there Rod. But basically the safest thing to do is use the operating disc to boot from. Run a FULL format and reinstall the operating system

That will help, but the safest thing to do is get a proper secure delete tool which will write zeroes across all sectors of the disk several times (you can get them free on the internet). Even then, someone who was determined enough could still probably extract data off if they had the right know how / tools. The only way to really be sure is to take a hammer to the disk and then melt it down.

Of course this last step is overkill for anyone but top secret military equipment really

 

[Gerrardasnails]

Septicman:
I am actually quite sceptical of cable claims. Most speaker cables use 99.999999% pure copper of varying thicknesses. So how can there be a difference? I also believe that science can measure what comes out of a speaker pretty accurately.

However, I cannot be 100% sure that cables make no difference; the issue for me is that the ear takes in a noise, and relays it to the brain. This is true of all of us - the question is whether or not, unlike a scientific instrument, in the process of converting the signal to something the brain interprets as sound, there are differences between us. So even if two people hear something that a scientific instrument interprets as being one particular sound, they still hear it slightly differently, because of the organic differences in their hearing.

Does this make sense? What I'm saying is that even if cables are actually no different on a scientific level, the differences in our hearing account for the perceived differences in cables. This would explain why science and people can both be right about cables.

There is a clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9HrYAyVItY from Townshend Audio testing it's speaker cable (using science) and it showed clear differences to another cable. So, if you believe that science can measure what comes out of a speaker, and that because 99.9999% of cables are copper, what would you make of this?

 

[chebby]

professorhat:Of course this last step is overkill for anyone but top secret military equipment really

No. Military and Government's favoured method of laptop 'disposal' to leave them in trains or bars (preferably already logged on).

I think the Home-Office prefer to leave such things to e-bay buyers....

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/28/home_office_data_loss_encrypted_but_probably_already_lost/

 

[aliEnRIK]

Septicman:
I am actually quite sceptical of cable claims. Most speaker cables use 99.999999% pure copper of varying thicknesses. So how can there be a difference? I also believe that science can measure what comes out of a speaker pretty accurately.

Wether its cryogenically frozen or not. Braided cables lessen EMI as does shielding. Silver makes the biggest difference and there are ALL sorts of grades of silver.

I do recall testing some cd players out with my dad (3.5k upto 10k!)

Initially we both thought the sound was awfully 'thin'. Plenty of detail but lacking bass. We found theyd wired up Nordosts 'solar wind' (Hardly cheap)

We asked for a change of cable and they stuck the only other stuff in at hand (No idea what it was). It sounded WAY better to both our ears 'instantly' (And my dads hearing isnt perfect either). So im taking a stand and saying speaker cables most certainly DO make a difference

 

[aliEnRIK]

Tarquinh:aliEnRIK:
RodhasGibson:Hi Rik, Look seeing as you are into the area of IT, That interests me can you explain to me this:- If I decide to upgrade my present Laptop, How do I wipe it Clean? before selling it on. [ie wipe all passwords and personal data etc.] Any good sound advice would be welcome. Thanks Rod.

A touch off topic there Rod. But basically the safest thing to do is use the operating disc to boot from. Run a FULL format and reinstall the operating system

Also delete the existing partition and re-partition the disc.

You cant delete a partion thats in use

 

[idc]

smithdom:

idc:It is very frustrating when the cable doubters say you are wrong, especially those in the engineering side and blindly quote blind tests as the be all and end all. There have been times where self professed engineers have posted on the forum and I have asked 'so why can I hear a difference?', but there has been no response.

Why would you expect an engineer to be able to explain why you can hear a difference? If they are doubting engineers then presumably they cannot hear the difference, so why should they be able to explain what they do not perceive? I am not an engineer but I do find it hard to understand how two digital cables performing to specification can produce different results.

Hi smithdom. I'll ask anyone who posts on the forum who may have an answer! I don't expect to get one though, I just live in hope.

smithdom: I don't doubt the sincerity of people who claim to be able to distinguish, and I certainly have no wish to offend anyone by expressing my doubt, but I think the onus should be on someone who believes there is a difference to be able to explain how this could be so.

I am a believer, but I do not see why the onus is on me to provide an explanation. I have ideas as to why cables make a difference which I have expressed in other threads on the subject. What I do not understand is why can I and others hear a difference, but others again state that there is and cannot be a difference. I then have to ask them to provide the explanation. So if an engineer comes on a thread and states such, it is perfectly reasonable for me to ask why?

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:Tarquinh:aliEnRIK:
RodhasGibson:Hi Rik, Look seeing as you are into the area of IT, That interests me can you explain to me this:- If I decide to upgrade my present Laptop, How do I wipe it Clean? before selling it on. [ie wipe all passwords and personal data etc.] Any good sound advice would be welcome. Thanks Rod.

A touch off topic there Rod. But basically the safest thing to do is use the operating disc to boot from. Run a FULL format and reinstall the operating system

Also delete the existing partition and re-partition the disc.

You cant delete a partion thats in use

Rik,

Now you're being silly

You can't format a partition that's in use either; What you do is boot from the setup disk, delete the partition on the hard disk and create a new one. You then format the partition you just created - I'm sure you must know this?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Tarquinh:aliEnRIK:Tarquinh:aliEnRIK:
RodhasGibson:Hi Rik, Look seeing as you are into the area of IT, That interests me can you explain to me this:- If I decide to upgrade my present Laptop, How do I wipe it Clean? before selling it on. [ie wipe all passwords and personal data etc.] Any good sound advice would be welcome. Thanks Rod.

A touch off topic there Rod. But basically the safest thing to do is use the operating disc to boot from. Run a FULL format and reinstall the operating system

Also delete the existing partition and re-partition the disc.

You cant delete a partion thats in use

Rik,

Now you're being silly

You can't format a partition that's in use either; What you do is boot from the setup disk, delete the partition on the hard disk and create a new one. You then format the partition you just created - I'm sure you must know this?

My bad ~ it was the way you said it originally

 

[Anonymous]

Rik, yes, mea culpa, I was using shorthand because I was in a hurry.

 

[idc]

Rik and Tarqunih, this is an interesting side debate, how about posting it here......................clicky

 

[Anonymous]

There are BIG cash prize challenges on offer to anyone who can claim to hear the differences between super-expensive and average cables , how come this money has never been claimed by anyone ?

Surely a simple investment for those who claim to discern the differences.

If i was so sure i'd be in touch with em and pick up my money.

EDITED BY MODS for house rules violations

 

[aliEnRIK]

drumlins4ever:
There are BIG cash prize challenges on offer to anyone who can claim to hear the differences between super-expensive and average cables , how come this money has never been claimed by anyone ?

Surely a simple investment for those who claim to discern the differences.

If i was so sure i'd be in touch with em and pick up my money.

EDITED BY MODS for house rules violations

Not THAT old chestnut

EDITED BY MODS for house rules violations

One must be able to "demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability"

"despite his claims that RFI is not a problem in speaker cables,
according to publications by the Amateur Radio Relay League, RFI has
been documented as a known problem that can exist in speaker cables."

Not to mention Russ Andrews has since MEASUREABLY PROVEN that RFI effects amps

 

[Anonymous]

The question remains , Why has no-one taken the test ?

ÿÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Someone said they doubted whether people would be able to differentiate between two versions of Beethoven's fifth in a blind test. Only someone who knew very little about classical music would say that. Its completely different than judging the difference between audiophile qualities of a cable or whatever else. It would be immediately apparent to anyone with a cursory knowledge of classical music whether a modern version of the fifth was being played, say on period instruments with faster tempo than was used before modern revisions of tempo and instrumentation and whether they were listening to a typically expansive full-on Karajan style seventies recording with the Berlin going full pelt at it.

I could be blind folded and beaten up and drunk and I still tell you the difference between a Norrington version of the fifth and a Karajan version within 5 seconds of listening to it.

 

[Anonymous]

As far as I'm aware telling the difference between these cables would constitute in the JREF"Sÿdefinitionÿas "psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability"ÿ

The prize money is heldÿindependentlyÿand is real .

The real reason the manufactures wont take theÿchallengeÿ is because they would look SO bad and be out ofÿbusiness and lots of reviewers would look awfully stupid and be out of a job .

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Catcher:
Someone said they doubted whether people would be able to differentiate between two versions of Beethoven's fifth in a blind test. Only someone who knew very little about classical music would say that. Its completely different than judging the difference between audiophile qualities of a cable or whatever else. It would be immediately apparent to anyone with a cursory knowledge of classical music whether a modern version of the fifth was being played, say on period instruments with faster tempo than was used before modern revisions of tempo and instrumentation and whether they were listening to a typically expansive full-on Karajan style seventies recording with the Berlin going full pelt at it.

I could be blind folded and beaten up and drunk and I still tell you the difference between a Norrington version of the fifth and a Karajan version within 5 seconds of listening to it.

ÿ

This i don't doubt in the slightest, completelyÿdifferentÿthan audio cables ,ÿ

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Its relatively easy for aÿmanufacturerÿor top reviewer to arrange to do the test and put to sleep all the controversy .

But no

No-one has honestly tried to give it a go , proof indeed.

 

[Anonymous]

Whatever your view of blind tests it has to be accepted they tell you something. I don't need a scientist, philosopher, or engineer to tell me that if I close my eyes and can't hear the difference between a £5 cable and a £5,000 cable then its telling me something.

Can I just say that if I read one more person say they bought a cable and it "opened up the soundstage, tightened the base and improved the mid-range, trebles were sweet without being shrill and detail seemed improved" Ill

EDITED BY MODS - no, you can't just say that.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for pointing me at the video. I'll check it out when I have a moment. If it's the one I think it is, I believe it has been discredited elsewhere on the internet, in the same way that there are people who refute the "proof" you claim has been dug up by Russ Andrews. My technical knowledge isn't good enough to know to make a decision however. What should happen is that manufacturers should have the burden of proof put on them to prove any claim they make. It is unsurprising that manufacturers who previously made unsubstantiated claims are now coming up with "proof" to back their positions. How could they do anything else? They would have to put themselves out of business otherwise. I would feel happier if tests were conducted by fully independent bodies such as the BSI. I would then take them seriously.

What I find most interesting is what the professionals think about cables. And it is their opinion I would trust most. As just one example, if you go on to the Harbeth users group, you will see regular contributions by Alan Shaw, the guy who designs and manufactures the speakers. Cables for him are unimportant, as they are only a means to connect an amp to his speaker. I don't think anyone would suggest the guy is a flake, or is misguided etc. Indeed, it is his speakers, and therefore his designs and principles that are used by the BBC, and have been for years. A quick search under cables or jumpers will soon reveal a number of threads concerning them. Mr Shaw's contributions are pretty telling. And also the reason why I'm happy to retain my gold plated brass links between speaker posts, and my £2-4/m speaker cable. He has no axe to grind because he does not design or manufacture cables. He is interesting on the subject of how top quality speakers are designed, and lays out the difference between you ears/hearing and scientific measurements of speaker performance. It is very hard to argue against him, although I have no doubt people will try.

I have paraphrased St. Thomas Aquinas before: "For those who believe, no proof is necessary; for those who do not want to believe, no proof could ever be sufficient". And so it is with cables.

If people can afford exotic cables, and believe they make a difference, let them buy them.