Mains cables, lets put an end to this nonsense.

[John Duncan]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

 

[jaxwired]

Mains cables don't have any influence on sound quality, so there is no point in ABX testing them. Selling your gear because you know that seems rather silly.

Debate over! TrevC has spoken.

 

[TrevC]

Mains cables don't have any influence on sound quality, so there is no point in ABX testing them. Selling your gear because you know that seems rather silly.

Really? That's how you interpret my statement? Try harder. We know you can do better...

I'm not wasting my time on nonsense.

 

[TrevC]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

That's just it, you wouldn't bother.

 

[Craig M.]

On the subject of AB/X v long term listening, I recall reading about an attempt to find out which was best for spotting differences. Some people in Japan were attempting to discover the audibility of digital jitter and conducted a series of AB/X tests, the results were questioned on the basis that AB/X wasn't a good way of spotting small differences, so they decided to have a go at seeing if long term listening was a more reliable test. The test comprised of a black box with a switch that turned on or off a circuit that introduced about 3% distortion into their home systems, half the listeners used a 30 seconds of A and then 30 seconds of B followed by X, the other half listened with the switch in one position for weeks at a time. It apparently took the rapid A/B group about 10 minutes to learn to identify which was which, the long term listeners pretty much failed to spot any difference. Ok, not exactly conclusive, but interesting enough and the only attempt at testing AB/X against long term listening that I've seen.

I've tried AB/X and know it can be hard to remember adequately - I found it quite tiring. I prefer just a simple blind switch, with the only question being is this the same as the last one or not.

Personally, I think this idea is dead in the water. Apart from someone who thinks Superfi are going to let a bunch of people turn up and conduct an AB/X test on their premises, I doubt anyone who believes cables make a difference will put themselves forward and actually turn up. I suspect most people know they will fail a blind test.

 

[drummerman]

RFI/EMI interference can, imo, certainly have an effect on sound.

Think about it, you have cables, be that power, speaker or interconnects, some probably rolled into loops hanging behind your equipment racks. Basically a bunch of radio etc aerials.

Personally I think the construction/shielding of cables can make quite a difference to sound, mostly at high frequencies. This has less to do with the conductor material and/or price but simply with how well shielded the things are. I pay quite a lot of attention to that particuar aspect, even inside components.

regards

 

[Craig M.]

ABX tests have in the past "proved" that all amps sound the same, all cd players sound the same, all DACs sound the same

I'm not sure if you mean that literally, but it's not true. Amps, CD players and DACs have all been identified in blind tests, just like lots of them have failed to distinguish themselves. The differences tend to be pretty miniscule though compared to when listening sighted, at least that's been my experience.

 

[TrevC]

Wouldn't it be better to ABX something that really does make a difference rather than mains leads which can't?

 

[abacus]

As the quality of equipment has improved the differences between them have reduced, however I have never come across an ABX test where the differences weren’t reliably identified by all.

As to cables, then it is exactly the opposite, in that no one yet in an ABX test has been able to identify any differences.

Bill

 

[John Duncan]

Wouldn't it be better to ABX something that really does make a difference rather than mains leads which can't?

No. There are those who claim that they make a difference (chief amongst these being the manufacturers, for example). I think the OP wants to use ABX to prove that they *do* not (which will be a hard test methodology to set up), as opposed to that they *can* not (which is simply impossible to prove).

 

[TrevC]

Wouldn't it be better to ABX something that really does make a difference rather than mains leads which can't?

No. There are those who claim that they make a difference (chief amongst these being the manufacturers, for example). I think the OP wants to use ABX to prove that they *do* not (which will be a hard test methodology to set up), as opposed to that they *can* not (which is simply impossible to prove).

I would firstly ask the manufacturers of aftermarket mains leads to give an honest technical explanation of how it is possible, rather than the entirely deceitful technical sounding drivel they put on ther websites. It's pretty obvious the medicine man is going to claim his medicine works.

There is no conceivable mechanism for a cable that only carries the mains to have any effect on the performance of any connected items, so my use of the word 'can't' is entirely appropriate.

 

[ellisdj]

RFI/EMI interference can, imo, certainly have an effect on sound.

Think about it, you have cables, be that power, speaker or interconnects, some probably rolled into loops hanging behind your equipment racks. Basically a bunch of radio etc aerials.

Personally I think the construction/shielding of cables can make quite a difference to sound, mostly at high frequencies. This has less to do with the conductor material and/or price but simply with how well shielded the things are. I pay quite a lot of attention to that particuar aspect, even inside components.

regards

this is man talks a lot of sense!

if you do any test in a room that is not acoustically treated your wasting your time and it's not easy finding one of them

 

[steve_1979]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

 

[steve_1979]

...I've tried AB/X and know it can be hard to remember adequately - I found it quite tiring. I prefer just a simple blind switch, with the only question being is this the same as the last one or not...

+1

A simple blind A/B is such easier to do and in the real world that's all that's really needed IMO.

 

[John Duncan]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

 

[alchemist 1]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

Come on ! DO your job and put a stop to it...............:O

 

[steve_1979]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

An instantaneous A/B switchbox for the mains cables?

I don't know if they already exist but I'm sure it could be done. You might need to get an electronics engineer or electrician to make one for you though.

 

[John Duncan]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

An instantaneous A/B switchbox for the mains cables?

I've don't know if they already exist but I'm sure it could be done. You might need to get an electronics engineer or electrician to make one for you though.

But then you are interfering with the mains supply, which gives nay-sayers a reason to doubt the testing methodology.

 

[John Duncan]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

Come on ! DO your job and put a stop to it...............:O

No. The house rules are here:

http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

 

[davedotco]

ABX tests have in the past "proved" that all amps sound the same, all cd players sound the same, all DACs sound the same, and all cables sound the same. Yet here we all are buying amps, DACS, and cables like they actually do sound different. Anyone that is willing to be satisfied from an ABX test that mains cables all sound the same should then sell their amp and DAC and CDP and replace them with the cheapest on the market since those have also failed the ABX challenge.

Jax, you normally talk a fair amount of sense but that paragraph is nonsense of the highest order.

In my experience an ABX or properly conducted blind tests prove only one thing, simply that it is a hell of lot harder to tell the difference between items of hi-fi equipment when you do not know what you are listening to.

The amplifier test usually requires amplifiers (power amplifiers in reality) to be working 'within their capabilities' but in the real world this simply is not the case much of the time so differences can be heard often quite obviously so.

You think so huh, have to disgree. Even in the real world as long as volume levels are closely matched the people have consistently failed to win ABX challenges with power amps. Or pretty much any other hifi component i've ever heard being tested other than speakers (and perhaps turntables). Turns out the differences are not obvious at all. People simply cannot pass ABX challenges for amps or CD players or DACs or any type of cables. This is not debatable, this is fact. It's been done and the skeptics win every time. Therefore there are only two possibilities as far as my simple mind can detect.

1. All that equipment actually does sounds close enough as to be effectively identical for a human listener

OR

2. ABX tests are flawed.

If the former is true, then we are all wasting our money on anything but speakers. If the later is true, then ABX testing is worthless as it relates to hifi components.

I would much rather believe answer number 1 since it appeals strongly to my rational senses. However, my personal experience so strongly points to number 2. It's a mystery for sure. We are either all a bunch of easily fooled dullards wasting our money on voodoo or we are reacting to something that is not revealed by ABX testing. As much as I prefer the more rational path, I tend to think the latter is the truth.

Consider for a moment the possibility that human beings are able to detect differences between hifi amps, but only at a subconcious level or maybe only with long exposure. The brain and how we interpret sound is complex and we do not fully understand it.

I'm reminded of the famous Pepsi Challenge that happened in the early 1980s. At the time Coke was the market leader and pepsi went around doing live taste test between Pepsi and Coke. Turns out people over whelmingly preferred the taste of Pepsi. But it also turns out that people bought Coke anyway. So what should have been painfully obvious from the blind taste test actually contradicted people's real prefrences. In fact, Coke did their own blind taste tests and found the same thing, that people preferred pepsi. So they changed their formula to taste like pepsi and people hated the product. Moral of the story? People are not good at measuring themselves. Not a perfect analogy for the hifi ABX testing, but interesting and related I'd say.

Jax, you have to be aware of both the methodology and be sure of what you are actually testing. In hi-fi testing ABX is largely a test of audio memory, ie is Sample C the same as Sample A or Sample B which were heard previously. ABX is a fine testing pricedure but flawed in this respect.

Simple blind A/B testing where the switch is near instantaneous is much better and diffrences can be heard in many cases. The (power) amplifier test is a bit of a red herring because of the restrictions invariably applied, ie working within designed parameters etc.

Given an easy enough 'job' to do, all power amplifiers do sound pretty much the same, but in the real world the job is often not that easy.

 

[Alec]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

Come on ! DO your job and put a stop to it...............:O

No. The house rules are here: http://www.whathifi.com/house-rules

Rule 13 is, of course, broken by all of us every 2.76548976548888 seconds.

 

[BigH]

Why not have a separate section for cables, just like headphones and Turntables?

 

[staggerlee]

why do we need a final answer on this. If it works for you great ! if it doesn't great ! I don't need to enforce my view on others. Science isn't always right & there are plenty of examples of this

 

[andyjm]

I have noticed a new crop of "yes I can, no you can't" threads over the last few weeks regarding cables.

Rather than descend to playground taunts, in the spirit of Sir Isaac Newton, I suggest we apply the scientific method. My hypothesis is:

"In a domestic setting*, with a HiFi** amplifier, it is impossible to differentiate between different mains cables*** in a properly conducted blind listening test"

* A normal domestic setting, not where an arc welder is plugged into the same circuit.

** An amplifier from a recognised HiFi manufacturer

*** Cables have to be adequately specified to carry sufficient current according to the amplifier manufacturers requirements.

I suggest we perform an experiment to check my hypothesis.

I will PM the more prominent cable supporters to invite them to a properly conducted ABX test, and suggest that they bring their favourate cable along to include in the test. For myself, I will bring the cable that I use for my Krell amplifier that came free with a Dell computer many moons ago. Used because it is nice and flexible and just the right length.

I had originally thought of using my listening room for the test, but my wife is not keen on me inviting (in her words) "a bunch of HifI wierdos from an internet forum" over, so I will try to find neutral territory. There are a few dealers who post on here who seem to have an open mind on these things (and I guess don't sell mains cables), so I will try them. If anyone is interested in hosting, please let me know.

I will mug up on how to conduct a proper ABX test, how many tests are required to be statistically significant, and the correct format of the test. Any pointers welcome. I will post the test protocol so we can all agree, and then post the results of the tests.

Interested?

I want to be clear here, although my bias is obvious from the title of the thread, I do not wish to catch people out - if it turns out that mains cables can be identified in a properly conducted test, then I am more than willing to change my spots.

What I want to put an end to is the continual "yes I can, no you can't" aspect of cable discussions. If I can get the organisation sorted out, I want to provide cable supporters an opportunity to demonstrate the differences that cables can make in a fair, statistically meaningful, and unbiased way. I am sceptical, but I will make every effort to ensure that any test is performed in an equitable manner.

The comments made about ABX and alternative approaches are helpful. I will have some time early next week to focus on this, and I will post my proposed test protocol next week for holes to be poked in it.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?