Mains cables, lets put an end to this nonsense.

[steve_1979]

I'd be interested to know how you might design an ABX test of mains cables that people couldn't pick holes in (the main objection being that auditory memory is very short, whilst changing a mains cable and cueing up music will take a minute).

Two identical systems playing into the same speakers and as always an instantaneous A/B switchbox.

No, it has to be one system to cut out variations in the other system, so that the *only* thing that changes is the mains cable. How do you propose that should be done?

An instantaneous A/B switchbox for the mains cables?

I've don't know if they already exist but I'm sure it could be done. You might need to get an electronics engineer or electrician to make one for you though.

But then you are interfering with the mains supply, which gives nay-sayers a reason to doubt the testing methodology.

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

 

[TrevC]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?

Wouldn't they need to change the mains leads on the computer too? :rofl:

 

[John Duncan]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

 

[fr0g]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

Obviously we have more hifiness in Sweden. There are no switches on plug sockets

But being serious. I think Steve is right.

 

[TrevC]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

Stupid people tend to do all kinds of idiotic things.

 

[JoelSim]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it.

Ho hum.

 

[steve_1979]

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box?

This is getting silly JD. I realise you're just playing devils advocate here. But you're obviously an intelligent guy and I'm sure you fully understand how electricity and basic on/off switches work. So why are you try to argue a point which you must know is stupid? If you wanted to prove that it doesn't effect the mains supply you could just measure the voltage and current on either side of the switchbox.

An on/off switch looks like this in a circuit diagram. The piece of metal just moves to connect or disconect two wires. They really are this simple.

You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

There's a good reason why they have the nickname 'audiophools' you know.

Do you worry about a tiny piece of low resistance metal in an on/off switch? But what about all of the cabling, fuses and circuit breakers in your house? What about the hundreds of miles of overhead power lines with step-up and step-down trandformers at each end? Do they effect the 'hifiness' of your electric more than the last meter of powercable and an on/off switch?

 

[JoelSim]

'tis OK. I have a mains conditioning box. A BT one.

 

[SpursGator]

2. ABX tests are flawed.

...

Consider for a moment the possibility that human beings are able to detect differences between hifi amps, but only at a subconcious level or maybe only with long exposure. The brain and how we interpret sound is complex and we do not fully understand it.

Given an easy enough 'job' to do, all power amplifiers do sound pretty much the same, but in the real world the job is often not that easy.

Dave has got the truth out in the this thread: A/B tests are highly flawed. I would go so far as to say they confuse and bias the listener. I've had this experience comparing DACs - you can listen to one DAC for awhile, then switch to the other, and the sound changes a little, especially when you listen to the cymbols (i.e., the very high end of the audible spectrum). It's a pretty clear difference.

But then if you flip back and forth a few times rapidly, it actually becomes harder to hear which is which - your brain gets fatigued and confounded. Maybe it's poor audio memory as others have suggested but there are some oddities in how humans perceive sound. For example, maybe you've had the experience that if you repeat a word aloud 10-12 times in a row (particularly a multisyllable word), it sometimes triggers a sensation in which the word becomes somewhat detached from it's meaning, and for a second or two it can be hard to explain the word's meaning. There is almost an audio fatigue that dulls the senses a little when one listens very intently.

An A/B test often results in people not being able to tell the difference even in things in which one can clearly hear a difference (not just power cables). The format of the test gives meaningless results - no one ever can tell the difference in anything.

The second point I quoted from Jaxwired is very good as well. The methodology of the test is also flawed because each component is made sure to operate in its ideal operating range. Especially with amps, this in and of itself makes the test meaningless because of the complexity and imperfection of any real-world speaker on the end of that chain. One component might sound better than another by the way it distorts, rather than by how much. In hifi, the amps that distort pleasingly tend to be underpowered, and the ones that are not underpowered tend to distort ear-shreddingly. How can you adjust for this? You can't - this is about sounds that please vs. sounds that don't. There is NO METHODOLOGY that can solve this truly scientifically. And if you do an A/B test people are going to hear less and less difference the more times they are allowed to switch.

 

[John Duncan]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

Obviously we have more hifiness in Sweden. There are no switches on plug sockets

But being serious. I think Steve is right.

I'm not saying whether he's right or wrong, but then I'm not the one who will be picking his ABX methodology apart.

 

[TrevC]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it. Ho hum.

LOL. Ho hum indeed.

 

[JoelSim]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it. Ho hum.

LOL. Ho hum indeed.

It did actually Trev, but heh! I wrote about it on this very forum many years ago and the same debate was had with audophools and snake-oil doubters :shhh:

Always good fun.

I have also had cables that were detrimental to the sound and moved them on.

 

[steve_1979]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

Obviously we have more hifiness in Sweden. There are no switches on plug sockets

But being serious. I think Steve is right.

I'm not saying whether he's right or wrong, but then I'm not the one who will be picking his ABX methodology apart.

Both cables would be connected to the same switchbox and HiFi system. The only thing that changes would be which cable is used at a specific time so it would still be a valid ABX comparison.

I do honestly think that you wouldn't need a full on ABX test though. A simple blind A/B comparison would be sufficient enough. Simply removing the 'sighted' part of the comparison is all that's usually needed.

 

[TrevC]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it. Ho hum.

LOL. Ho hum indeed.

It did actually Trev, but heh! I wrote about it on this very forum many years ago and the same debate was had with audophools and snake-oil doubters :shhh:

Always good fun.

I have also had cables that were detrimental to the sound and moved them on.

How do you account for the differences? Did the bad cables put bad vibes on the mains?

 

[TrevC]

Saying that an A/B switch box is interfering with the mains supply is like saying that the on/off switch on your wall socket is interfering with the mains supply. They are essentially doing exactly the same thing. They are both just a simple switch which breaks a circuit.

And you can prove this...how? With an ABX test of the ABX switch box? You do know that some people put in switchless mains sockets for increased hifiness, don't you...?

Obviously we have more hifiness in Sweden. There are no switches on plug sockets

But being serious. I think Steve is right.

I'm not saying whether he's right or wrong, but then I'm not the one who will be picking his ABX methodology apart.

Both cables would be connected to the same switchbox and HiFi system. The only thing that changes would be which cable is used at a specific time so it would still be a valid ABX comparison.

I do honestly think that you wouldn't need a full on ABX test though. A simple blind A/B comparison would be sufficient enough. Simply removing the 'sighted' part of the comparison is all that's usually needed.

No ABX testing is needed for mains leads. Ask any electronic engineer.

 

[JoelSim]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it. Ho hum.

LOL. Ho hum indeed.

It did actually Trev, but heh! I wrote about it on this very forum many years ago and the same debate was had with audophools and snake-oil doubters :shhh:

Always good fun.

I have also had cables that were detrimental to the sound and moved them on.

How do you account for the differences? Did the bad cables put bad vibes on the mains?

No idea on accounting for the differences Trev. Only what I heard. It's a few years ago now but I remember sitting open-mouthed in amazement about what I heard when I changed the mains cable to my CDP. Was really not expecting to hear any difference, eBay purchase which would have been sold on to get my money back hadn't it have made a difference.

 

[John Duncan]

An on/off switch looks like this in a circuit diagram. The piece of metal just moves to connect or disconect two wires. They really are this simple.

Thanks for that.

This is getting silly JD. I realise you're just playing devils advocate here. But you're obviously an intelligent guy and I'm sure you fully understand how electricity and basic on/off switches work. So why are you try to argue a point which you must know is stupid? If you wanted to prove that it doesn't effect the mains supply you could just measure the voltage and current on either side of the switchbox.

Just preparing you for the arguments you will face, that's all. How do you know that the design and manufacture of the box will not introduce RFI on one side of the circuit and not on the other? Will it be as shielded from all that nasty RFI (that cable manufacturers have made their cables to reject) on one side of the circuit box as the other?

All I'm saying is that you can not and will not prove anything, so you are wasting your time. Better to leave those who want to change their mains cables to do so, and those who do not to...not. I am now off to rearrange my leads (of the amazon basics, gotham and black kettle variety) to get TV sound through my stereo.

 

[TrevC]

FWIW I put a Nordost mains cable on mine which replaced a Merlin a few years back and was staggered at the difference it made. I wasn't expecting it. Ho hum.

LOL. Ho hum indeed.

It did actually Trev, but heh! I wrote about it on this very forum many years ago and the same debate was had with audophools and snake-oil doubters :shhh:

Always good fun.

I have also had cables that were detrimental to the sound and moved them on.

How do you account for the differences? Did the bad cables put bad vibes on the mains?

No idea on accounting for the differences Trev. Only what I heard. It's a few years ago now but I remember sitting open-mouthed in amazement about what I heard when I changed the mains cable to my CDP. Was really not expecting to hear any difference, eBay purchase which would have been sold on to get my money back hadn't it have made a difference.

I'm open mouthed too.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

 

[John Duncan]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?

See, now you're talking. If it were done in a sufficiently controlled way, not only could we listen to them, we could ABX them in foobar or diff them in that software somebody was talking about recently.

In fact, we could do that with all sorts of cables (drums fingers on chin)...

 

[steve_1979]

Haven't read this thread completely, but wouldn't it be easier to do a series of needle drops or whatever you call them of the same thing with different mains cables each time, then put it up on a website so people could download and listen for themselves?

See, now you're talking. If it were done in a sufficiently controlled way, not only could we listen to them, we could ABX them in foobar or diff them in that software somebody was talking about recently.

In fact, we could do that with all sorts of cables (drums fingers on chin)...

Exellent idea.

Who would know how to set this up??

 

[John Duncan]

Dunno. I certainly can't be bothered.

 

[TrevC]

Alternatively we could do something like this.

http://metro.co.uk/2012/01/09/watching-paint-dry-championship-attracts-international-interest-279060/

 

[MakkaPakka]

What needs setting up?

You just use the tape outs of an amp/source into the line in of a PC and record in audacity. Once with the expensive cable and once without. Then make the two files available for download.

I did this to test my amp's DAC against my CD player's.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Sorry for the delay in progressing this, I have been travelling for the last week or so.

In the absence of a PM facility, I have set up the following email address to coordinate the test:

cableabxtest-at-gmail.com (remove the -at- and replace with @)

If those interested would send me an email and an an idea of where in the country you are (I am Surrey / West Sussex, but willing to travel), I will see what looks possible.

Thompson, do you think Superfi would be willing to host this?

If this proves to be a success, we can move on to interconnects and speaker cables at a later date. Who knows, we could even test a few HDMI cables.

Na...na..na....superfi I doubt would host this, what I suggested at the time was we go into Superfi and pretend we were buying stuff and during the demo we ask the assistant to try these cables... that was my cunning plan, it seemed like a good idea at the time because I was buying stuff and had built up a good repoir with the staff.

but its been a few months now so I doubt we would get away with it......

 

[TrevC]

An on/off switch looks like this in a circuit diagram. The piece of metal just moves to connect or disconect two wires. They really are this simple.

Thanks for that.

This is getting silly JD. I realise you're just playing devils advocate here. But you're obviously an intelligent guy and I'm sure you fully understand how electricity and basic on/off switches work. So why are you try to argue a point which you must know is stupid? If you wanted to prove that it doesn't effect the mains supply you could just measure the voltage and current on either side of the switchbox.

Just preparing you for the arguments you will face, that's all. How do you know that the design and manufacture of the box will not introduce RFI on one side of the circuit and not on the other? Will it be as shielded from all that nasty RFI (that cable manufacturers have made their cables to reject) on one side of the circuit box as the other?

All I'm saying is that you can not and will not prove anything, so you are wasting your time. Better to leave those who want to change their mains cables to do so, and those who do not to...not. I am now off to rearrange my leads (of the amazon basics, gotham and black kettle variety) to get TV sound through my stereo.

RFI on the scale that the cable manufacturers drone on about is very rare indeed. In any case RFI immunity is essential in an amplifier and will be designed into it. If not you will get pops and clicks as the fridge switches on etc.