Subjective/objective testing /AB / AB/X, thoughts.

[Overdose]

The discrepancy being the results of a sighted test versus a blind test, ie there will certainly be a difference between the two test results.

Or, to paraphrase matt49, if I do a sighted test between your system and mine, and then do a blind test, will there be a difference between the two results?

Further, could you tell us the mechanism by which you came to the conclusion that your system is 'better' than others available to you?

The results would differ, for sure.

How did I conclude that my system was better? I looked at specs, I wanted one less box, I wanted grills, I wanted more dynamic headroom and a better looking cabinet and I also wanted a speaker that was less fussy about positioning. All of these things made what I have now, better than whatever else was available at the time.

Edit: I also wanted louder.

 

[steve_1979]

Oh, to the person who mentioned "power chords making no difference" I can only guess you have not experimented with them and have no knowledge of the profound differences they make.

Yes I have tried a few power chords in shops and didn't hear any difference.

I for one was genuinly suprised at the degree of difference they do make - more than interconnects I found but are cost inhibited.

I bet you couldn't tell them apart in a blind A/B comparison.

 

[CnoEvil]

BTW. I'm still waiting for you to take up the odd challenge as well.....somehow, one never gets round to it.

I haven't forgotten about the ravioli. It's still on my to do list.

Don't forget TQ (Black or Blue) P/Cs as well.

I'm broke, because my house (Dry Rot) has swallowed all my money, but if you want to fly into Belfast, I'll pick you up, and we can go to the dealer with the BR / PCs and TQ S/C & I/Cs......I think he'll oblige.

You'll need to buy me lunch though (as I'm broke), and I'll leave you back to the Airport again in the evening.

 

[John Duncan]

How did I conclude that my system was better? I looked at specs, I wanted one less box, I wanted grills, I wanted more dynamic headroom and a better looking cabinet and I also wanted a speaker that was less fussy about positioning. All of these things made what I have now, better than whatever else was available at the time.

Edit: I also wanted louder.

Does it sound better than what you had before? If so, how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[matt49]

.....and now it's time to put on our straight jackets and get back on the bus.

You know what's really worrying -- we're relatively sane.

:nana:

 

[John Duncan]

Or, to paraphrase matt49, if I do a sighted test between your system and mine, and then do a blind test, will there be a difference between the two results?

The results would differ, for sure.

How would they differ?

 

[John Duncan]

if you want to fly into Belfast

I'm planning Christmas in Belfast. I'll buy lunch. Not Christmas lunch, that would be weird.

 

[Overdose]

But if all amps are so close to each other that ABX testing will show that one should choose one on the basis of functionality and aesthetics, how can one (sighted and in isolation) sound a bit ****? Can it only be down to the fact that it was sighted? Or do some amps actually sound a bit ****?

There are nearly always exceptions. That design was obviously especially incomptetant.

I thought the same about your exact speakers in the same room. What does that tell us? Was that design incompetent?

It tells us no more than your anecdotal evidence of not liking the sound of the ADM9s or this particular amp in question.

Edit: and given your active (pun intended) dislike of the AVI brand, we could conclude an extreme form of expectation bias also, an excellent example in fact.

 

[John Duncan]

But if all amps are so close to each other that ABX testing will show that one should choose one on the basis of functionality and aesthetics, how can one (sighted and in isolation) sound a bit ****? Can it only be down to the fact that it was sighted? Or do some amps actually sound a bit ****?

There are nearly always exceptions. That design was obviously especially incomptetant.

I thought the same about your exact speakers in the same room. What does that tell us? Was that design incompetent?

It tells us no more than your anecdotal evidence of not liking the sound of the ADM9s or this particular amp in question.

I thought you said the Devialet was 'obviously especially incompetent'? I'm confused.

 

[steve_1979]

BTW. I'm still waiting for you to take up the odd challenge as well.....somehow, one never gets round to it.

I haven't forgotten about the ravioli. It's still on my to do list.

Don't forget TQ (Black or Blue) P/Cs as well.

I'm broke, because my house (Dry Rot) has swallowed all my money, but if you want to fly into Belfast, I'll pick you up, and we can go to the dealer with the BR / PCs and TQ S/C & I/Cs......I think he'll oblige.

You'll need to buy me lunch though (as I'm broke), and I'll leave you back to the Airport again in the evening.

Not that it's ever going to happen but I bet it'd be fun day out (I suspect you might be as much of a hifi geek as me). I could get you to try comparing foo hifi products in blind A/B tests to see if we could hear any difference.

 

[Overdose]

I thought you said the Devialet was 'obviously especially incompetent'? I'm confused.

Clearly.

 

[John Duncan]

I thought you said the Devialet was 'obviously especially incompetent'? I'm confused.

Clearly.

So enlighten me. Is it possible for - eg - amps to be 'incompetent' and 'not incompetent', and, irrespective of how the methodology might skew the results, is it possible to tell them apart by sighted listening?

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Oh, to the person who mentioned "power chords making no difference" I can only guess you have not experimented with them and have no knowledge of the profound differences they make.

Yes I have tried a few power chords in shops and didn't hear any difference.

I for one was genuinly suprised at the degree of difference they do make - more than interconnects I found but are cost inhibited.

I bet you couldn't tell them apart in a blind A/B comparison.

I would wager 10,000pounds no joke...actually 20,000pounds.... I would test them in your house on your system (provided your amp as a removeable power chord ). Seriously I would drive upto wherever you live to take the money off you.

When I "upgraded" to the Rotel RA-1520 finding I was unable to get a sound I could live with changing interconnects I tried a power chord, the Audioquest NRG-X3 (60pounds) it made the amp sound worse than the cable supplied - what shocked me was the degree in difference the cable made to the sound

I'd take that A/B test anytime.

 

[fr0g]

Oh, to the person who mentioned "power chords making no difference" I can only guess you have not experimented with them and have no knowledge of the profound differences they make.

Yes I have tried a few power chords in shops and didn't hear any difference.

I for one was genuinly suprised at the degree of difference they do make - more than interconnects I found but are cost inhibited.

I bet you couldn't tell them apart in a blind A/B comparison.

I would wager 10,000pounds no joke...actually 20,000pounds.... I would test them in your house on your system (provided your amp as a removeable power chord ). Seriously I would drive upto wherever you live to take the money off you.

When I "upgraded" to the Rotel RA-1520 finding I was unable to get a sound I could live with changing interconnects I tried a power chord, the Audioquest NRG-X3 (60pounds) it made the amp sound worse than the cable supplied - what shocked me was the degree in difference the cable made to the sound

I'd take that A/B test anytime.

If you take that bet down to a more gentlemanly amount, I imagine you'd get the chance. But starting at 10 thousand is likely to put people off.

Why not call it £1, have some fun, a bottle of wine and chill? I'd be extremely interested to hear of a properly done test that gave a positive outcome for such an "upgrade".

 

[CnoEvil]

if you want to fly into Belfast

I'm planning Christmas in Belfast. I'll buy lunch. Not Christmas lunch, that would be weird.

Well, all you have to do is knock..........

 

[John Duncan]

Why not call it £1, have some fun, a bottle of wine and chill? I'd be extremely interested to hear of a properly done test that gave a positive outcome for such an "upgrade".

I thought you said a bottle of wine and chilli.

You had me, you smooth old dog you. Buy a girl dinner...

 

[John Duncan]

if you want to fly into Belfast

I'm planning Christmas in Belfast. I'll buy lunch. Not Christmas lunch, that would be weird.

Well, all you have to do is knock..........

...and explain to Mrs JD and the kids...

 

[chebby]

I thought you said a bottle of wine and chilli.

You had me, you smooth old dog you. Buy a girl dinner...

You'd have to drink the wine whilst blindfolded though.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Oh, to the person who mentioned "power chords making no difference" I can only guess you have not experimented with them and have no knowledge of the profound differences they make.

Yes I have tried a few power chords in shops and didn't hear any difference.

I for one was genuinly suprised at the degree of difference they do make - more than interconnects I found but are cost inhibited.

I bet you couldn't tell them apart in a blind A/B comparison.

I would wager 10,000pounds no joke...actually 20,000pounds.... I would test them in your house on your system (provided your amp as a removeable power chord ). Seriously I would drive upto wherever you live to take the money off you.

When I "upgraded" to the Rotel RA-1520 finding I was unable to get a sound I could live with changing interconnects I tried a power chord, the Audioquest NRG-X3 (60pounds) it made the amp sound worse than the cable supplied - what shocked me was the degree in difference the cable made to the sound

I'd take that A/B test anytime.

If you take that bet down to a more gentlemanly amount, I imagine you'd get the chance. But starting at 10 thousand is likely to put people off.

Why not call it £1, have some fun, a bottle of wine and chill? I'd be extremely interested to hear of a properly done test that gave a positive outcome for such an "upgrade".

Have you seen the price of petrol?

Plus I need A new car and a holiday and I know I'd win... £1 could'nt even by me a 500ml bottle of coke.

Problem is though these chords are more expensive than interconnects but if you can find the right one at a good price, seriously it can prove to be a great "upgrade" for a relative small outlay over buying a new amp/source or even speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

if you want to fly into Belfast

I'm planning Christmas in Belfast. I'll buy lunch. Not Christmas lunch, that would be weird.

Well, all you have to do is knock..........

...and explain to Mrs JD and the kids...

S'ok, it's not Christmas Lunch.

Though my birthday is only a couple of days after........... :twisted:

 

[John Duncan]

I thought you said a bottle of wine and chilli.

You had me, you smooth old dog you. Buy a girl dinner...

You'd have to drink the wine whilst blindfolded though.

"Red. No, wait a minute - white. No, wait..."

 

[fr0g]

Oh, to the person who mentioned "power chords making no difference" I can only guess you have not experimented with them and have no knowledge of the profound differences they make.

Yes I have tried a few power chords in shops and didn't hear any difference.

I for one was genuinly suprised at the degree of difference they do make - more than interconnects I found but are cost inhibited.

I bet you couldn't tell them apart in a blind A/B comparison.

I would wager 10,000pounds no joke...actually 20,000pounds.... I would test them in your house on your system (provided your amp as a removeable power chord ). Seriously I would drive upto wherever you live to take the money off you.

When I "upgraded" to the Rotel RA-1520 finding I was unable to get a sound I could live with changing interconnects I tried a power chord, the Audioquest NRG-X3 (60pounds) it made the amp sound worse than the cable supplied - what shocked me was the degree in difference the cable made to the sound

I'd take that A/B test anytime.

If you take that bet down to a more gentlemanly amount, I imagine you'd get the chance. But starting at 10 thousand is likely to put people off.

Why not call it £1, have some fun, a bottle of wine and chill? I'd be extremely interested to hear of a properly done test that gave a positive outcome for such an "upgrade".

Have you seen the price of petrol?

Plus I need A new car and a holiday and I know I'd win... £1 could'nt even by me a 500ml bottle of coke.

Problem is though these chords are more expensive than interconnects but if you can find the right one at a good price, seriously it can prove to be a great "upgrade" for a relative small outlay over buying a new amp/source or even speakers.

The thing is, Nobody on the objective side believes that you aren't simply hearing things that are not there (including me), and surely the pride of winning such a debate would be worth it. It's a pity you aren't in Sweden, I'd be willing to drive myself (and bring a good bottle of wine).

 

[Overdose]

So enlighten me. Is it possible for - eg - amps to be 'incompetent' and 'not incompetent', and, irrespective of how the methodology might skew the results, is it possible to tell them apart by sighted listening?

You are well aware I'm sure, of the influences affecting sighted listening and equally aware of the benefits of blind testing. The results of sighted listening will not be as acurate at determining differences that exist between equipment as blind testing will be. Differences can and do exist and at obviously different levels depending on what it is being tested, how easy it is to differentiate between equipment on a sighted test will depend a lot more on additional external factors not included in blind testing.

 

[manicm]

For what it's worth I've often felt if we could cover over the maker's names on pianos, some customers might choose differently. Not necessarily cheaper options, but certainly different ones not influenced by name.

This is a great point, that often doesn't get raised enough.....brand snobbery......or even confining your listening to just the big names.

I started a thread today about a very unknown brand of speakers, and though they were pretty impressive, TBH. I'll be surprised if they generate much interest.

I agree, but it's a slog with dealers. The dealer I bought my RX1s from sourced KEFs too, but stocked none in the showroom! Cautioned me about them being bright, but that tells me he probably didn't even hear them. KEFS! I guess he was just happy shifting as many B&Ws and MAs as possible cos they're the safer bet.

 

[manicm]

The discrepancy being the results of a sighted test versus a blind test, ie there will certainly be a difference between the two test results.

Or, to paraphrase matt49, if I do a sighted test between your system and mine, and then do a blind test, will there be a difference between the two results?

Further, could you tell us the mechanism by which you came to the conclusion that your system is 'better' than others available to you?

The results would differ, for sure.

How did I conclude that my system was better? I looked at specs, I wanted one less box, I wanted grills, I wanted more dynamic headroom and a better looking cabinet and I also wanted a speaker that was less fussy about positioning. All of these things made what I have now, better than whatever else was available at the time.

Edit: I also wanted louder.

I bought BX2 speakers cos:

I wanted higher sensitivity - check.

I wanted better power handling - check.

I wanted clarity - check.

I wanted better bass control and impact - check.

I wanted to retain positional flexibility - check

The paper specs were ideal - check

And in the deal after a few days I got something extra - a lack of emotional involvement.

Sent them packing - check.

If specs and measurements are the be all and end all then becareful of what you wish for - cos you might just get it.