london based double blind listening test anyone?

[lejockey]

Anyone up for conducting a double blond listening test? We could hold it in London, and create a series of double blond tests testing cables of all descriptions, DACs, purifiers, etc? All the usual things that cause the arguments on here?

We could have a nice civil experiment, then all go get drunk together after?

Whadyarekon?

 

[andyjm]

I would be very happy to participate, and would also provide what help I can.

I tried something similar before Christmas when the mains cable nonsense had reached fever pitch, but I was thwarted by a choice of venue. I looked at hiring a studio (remarkably cheap) but all sorts of logistic problems got in the way.

Assuming you can find a venue, perhaps we could agree on a suitable testing protocol on the forum. To be statisitically meaningful, there is more to it than just 'can you tell the difference between these two cables'. There are a lot of resources on the web about suitable protocols.

The obvious choice of venue would be:

http://www.whathifi.com/how-we-test

I could even bring in some test equipment and show the reviewers at WHF how it works.

By the way, did you mean 'double blind' or 'double blonde'. You may find you have much more interest in 'double blond'

 

[chebby]

I don't get as much opportunity to visit London as I used to. I'll wait until there is a really good photography exhibition, or some other reason, visit Penhaligons in Burlington Arcade for gifts for my wife and daughters (and myself) and treat my wife and I to a nice lunch. Maybe take in a free lunchtime concert at St. Martin In The Fields as well.

The prospect of a day's cable wrangling with (presumably) a bunch of men in some stranger's living room is not much of an inducement to visit our capital.

 

[matt49]

Yeah, why not. I have some knowledge of the psychological side of things.

Count me in.

Matt

 

[lejockey]

Good start so far. Chenny, what are your thoughts on Matisse? There's a great exhibition on at the rate at the moment?

As for venues, a studio sounds like a good idea. I'll have a look around, see what I can find. One slightly expensive option, could be to hire the anachoic chamber at UCL for half a day? Its about 45 pounds an hour. Would anachoic be the best condition for a test, as it will take out the room effect?

I like the idea of getting as much input on to what would constitute a fair test from as many people as possible on here, from both camps as well. What do people think?

 

[lejockey]

oops, autocreect on my phone!

Chebby, what about a Matisse exhebition at the tate? Is that something that would interest you and get you to London?

 

[chebby]

Good start so far. Chenny, what are your thoughts on Matisse?

I haven't thought about him to be honest. A small (but reasonably representative) idea of my tastes are here in this - sadly - very short thread back in March...

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/off-topic-and-miscellaneous/what-are-your-10-favourite-paintings

I also love the photos of Bill Brandt, Fay Godwin, Doisneau, Brassai, Josef Sudek and James Ravilious amongst others.

 

[Singslinger]

I'd happily fly the 8,000 miles to get to London if it was a double blonde test... :cheer:

 

[Covenanter]

Happy to participate. You need a mixture of sceptics and believers.

Chris

 

[chebby]

I'd happily fly the 8,000 miles to get to London if it was a double blonde test... :cheer:

That's an awful long way to travel to find that "double blonde test" meant Jedward would be used as the test music ...

"His expectations were soooooo biased."

 

[andyjm]

I like the idea of getting as much input on to what would constitute a fair test from as many people as possible on here, from both camps as well. What do people think?

As ever, the excellent Wikipedia has an answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_testing

 

[andyjm]

As for venues, a studio sounds like a good idea. I'll have a look around, see what I can find. One slightly expensive option, could be to hire the anachoic chamber at UCL for half a day? Its about 45 pounds an hour. Would anachoic be the best condition for a test, as it will take out the room effect?

The anechoic chamber idea has merit, but there will be those who say that it isnt a representative test as much of the audio experience comes from reflected sound - which wouldn't be present in the UCL chamber. I would also imagine (on the basis of no knowledge of the UCL facility) that it would be difficult to arrange for easy unsighted swapping of components.

The WHF venue does have merits, if they would be willing to play ball.

 

[Anderson]

Doubtful that they will be seen to support you in debunking one of their main revenue streams.

 

[BenLaw]

Hopefully ellisdj, Thompsonuxb and hifikrazy will volunteer from the pro cable side.

 

[andyjm]

As for venues, a studio sounds like a good idea. I'll have a look around, see what I can find. One slightly expensive option, could be to hire the anachoic chamber at UCL for half a day? Its about 45 pounds an hour. Would anachoic be the best condition for a test, as it will take out the room effect?

The anechoic chamber idea has merit, but there will be those who say that it isnt a representative test as much of the audio experience comes from reflected sound - which wouldn't be present in the UCL chamber. I would also imagine (on the basis of no knowledge of the UCL facility) that it would be difficult to arrange for easy unsighted swapping of components.

Just checked the UCL facility on google. They have a large anechoic chamber for antenna and RFI testing, but their audio anechoic chamber looks about the size of a broom cupboard and seems to be used primarily for speech analysis. They could of course have others.

 

[andyjm]

Good start so far. Chenny, what are your thoughts on Matisse? There's a great exhibition on at the rate at the moment?

I would highly recommend the Matisse exhibition. If you look closely at the cut outs, you can see the multiple pin holes where each section had been repeatedly repositioned before final placement. Not bad for an old guy in a wheel chair.

 

[Greenwich_Man]

I live in London so looks good to me. What a great idea.

 

[Vladimir]

And if you record everything for youtube it will be epic and historic. If its just some public blog/forum posted data and background story, it will get lost among the many and continued to be ignored.

Think television man!

 

[cheeseboy]

Hopefully ellisdj, Thompsonuxb and hifikrazy will volunteer from the pro cable side.

i do hope so, but no point in inviting ellisdj, he's already stated that even if he had proof of differences, he would choose not to believe it. :shifty:

But in fairness, without both sides present, you may as well just have a piss up :cheers:

 

[steve_1979]

And if you record everything for youtube it will be epic and historic. If its just some public blog/forum posted data and background story, it will get lost among the many and continued to be ignored.

Think television man!

+1

If you do setup a proper ABX test make sure you document everything with lots of notes, photos and video. It would be worth making a short blog on the event separate to the forum thread.

 

[TB303]

Sounds awesome!

I'm based in Londo and woudl be happy to participate.

Can I sugegst we also test if Bi-wiring does anything noticable to the sound?

 

[plastic penguin]

I'd happily fly the 8,000 miles to get to London if it was a double blonde test... :cheer:

That's an awful long way to travel to find that "double blonde test" meant Jedward would be used as the test music ...

"His expectations were soooooo biased."

That reminds me: Must buy a new shaving brush. oke:

 

[Glacialpath]

I'd be up for this. We could all try out all the things that we have these debates on. That way hopefully we could stop filling up What Hi-Fi's forum with silly conversations where we are clearly divided.

I don't see it resolving much if it's just done with our ears and we all hear differently and have different perseptions so doing something like the experiment I did with my ZOOM 4 recorder recording the sound coming from the speakers and any other clever test modules we can bring to the table.

I'm happy to do blind test. I would also suggesting before we do a blind test that we put a selection of music on. Make notes on what we think we can hear from the tracks. I would say 6 tracks of 6 different kinds of music. Play the tracks 2 more times to see if we hear any more from just listening to the tracks again. Then we swap cables, amps or what ever we are testing and replay the same bits of music. Again we write down what we think we can hear on another bit of paper without refering to the first piece.

If there are new things heard then there is a difference.

I am finding that with the lates cable addition to my system new things are jumping out at me. Not just being slightly audible but very. This is my opinion of course and just an example.

 

[Vladimir]

I will come there running if we DBT these speakers.

 

[andyjm]

I'd be up for this. We could all try out all the things that we have these debates on. That way hopefully we could stop filling up What Hi-Fi's forum with silly conversations where we are clearly divided.

I don't see it resolving much if it's just done with our ears and we all hear differently and have different perseptions so doing something like the experiment I did with my ZOOM 4 recorder recording the sound coming from the speakers and any other clever test modules we can bring to the table.

I'm happy to do blind test. I would also suggesting before we do a blind test that we put a selection of music on. Make notes on what we think we can hear from the tracks. I would say 6 tracks of 6 different kinds of music. Play the tracks 2 more times to see if we hear any more from just listening to the tracks again. Then we swap cables, amps or what ever we are testing and replay the same bits of music. Again we write down what we think we can hear on another bit of paper without refering to the first piece.

If there are new things heard then there is a difference.

I am finding that with the lates cable addition to my system new things are jumping out at me. Not just being slightly audible but very. This is my opinion of course and just an example.

There are well established approaches for tests of this nature. Have a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test