The Blind (Mis) Leading the Blind

[Anonymous]

I also find that interesting. The fact that someone involved in designing Harbeth speakers doesn't give a hoot about cables. Now I don't know enough to disprove that cables don't make a difference but again it tells you something when someone like Mr Shaw thinks they don't make a difference. I say this as a self criticism as much as anything because I'm someone who swapped his well made Exposure speaker wire for quite expensive NVA LS5 and convinced himself he could hear a difference. It also puts into perspective people who claim a new wire "lifted a veil" from their system and made all sorts of dramatic differences. I think most people, including myself, told themselves they could hear a difference to justify the amount they were spending.

Of course it could be countered that it means something when other audio engineers and reviewers, like the ones from this magazine, who seem sane reasonable people, do claim to hear a difference.

 

[idc]

Catcher: It also puts into perspective people who claim a new wire "lifted a veil" from their system and made all sorts of dramatic differences. I think most people, including myself, told themselves they could hear a difference to justify the amount they were spending.

Two nails on the head there Catcher. On the HDMI debate I have tried to give the debate some perspective by stating that you better results cleaning a dirty TV screen than any uprated HDMI. But manufacturers and fans of cables do use wording such as dramatic, astounding and other descriptives that should only apply to the change from a 20 year old boombox to a top of the range Cyrus kit.

We need the advertising executives from the film 'Crazy People' to write some hifi cable bylines!

Catcher: Of course it could be countered that it means something when other audio engineers and reviewers, like the ones from this magazine, who seem sane reasonable people, do claim to hear a difference.

Exactly, there is something going on, something worth debating. We are not dealing with a lunatic finge, which is why some of the OTT language used by doubters with as equal abandon as those who write such as 'the improvement in clarity was frankly gobsmaking, making the new speaker cable produced by idc the most significant hifi development in decades' does not help!

 

[aliEnRIK]

Septicman:
......... in the same way that there are people who refute the "proof" you claim has been dug up by Russ Andrews. My technical knowledge isn't good enough to know to make a decision however. What should happen is that manufacturers should have the burden of proof put on them to prove any claim they make. It is unsurprising that manufacturers who previously made unsubstantiated claims are now coming up with "proof" to back their positions. How could they do anything else? They would have to put themselves out of business otherwise. I would feel happier if tests were conducted by fully independent bodies such as the BSI. I would then take them seriously.

I posted THIS

At the end of the day, the engineer that did the test has posted all his details for anyone that wishes to refute his tests and the research papers where even sent to one DR Sawyers who holds a BSc (1st class honours) in electronics science and a PhD in Laser Physics at Southampton University

Dr Sawyers commented "What a paper. No-one will be able to say that mains quality, conditioning and cables do not make a difference again! From now on, it is simply a done deal."

 

[Anonymous]

The general scientific consensus is still highly skeptical regarding any differences in cables are audible.

Of course its possible to have 1 or 2 scientists endorse something but it is the consensus of many experts that makes science valid.

 

[Anonymous]

Would "what HiFi" be willing to take part in the JREFÿchallengeÿ?

 

[Andrew Everard]

drumlins4ever:Would "what HiFi" be willing to take part in the JREF challenge ?

Sorry, we don't work with conjurors and illlusionists.

 

[matthewpiano]

drumlins4ever:
The general scientific consensus is still highly skeptical regarding any differences in cables are audible.

Of course its possible to have 1 or 2 scientists endorse something but it is the consensus of many experts that makes science valid.

My own ears tell me there are differences between cables. I don't need that validating by science.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
drumlins4ever:Would "what HiFi" be willing to take part in the JREFÿchallengeÿ?

Sorry, we don't work with conjurors and illlusionists.

ÿ

ÿ

Thats just being silly , I take it your answer is no ? , could we have a serious answer why not ?

 

[Andrew Everard]

I already gave the answer. And no, I wasn't being silly at all.

 

[aliEnRIK]

drumlins4ever:Would "what HiFi" be willing to take part in the JREF challenge ?

May I ask what cables you use drumlins, and why?

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:I already gave the answer. And no, I wasn't being silly at all.

ÿ

If you think the JREF is a collection of conjurors and illusionists than you are very mistaken .

They run highly controlled scientific tests which are monitoredÿindependentlyÿ,

If you say "NO" , ÿit is aÿreasonableÿassumption to be highly skeptical of your reasons.

How about if the test was carried out by Cambridge University Physics dept ? Would you agree then?

ÿ

ÿ

ÿ

 

[Andrew Everard]

James Randi - or Randall Zwinge, to give him his real name - is a stage magician, illusionist (he developed the fake guillotine Alice Cooper used on tour) and performer.

Why would refusing to perform with a magician be any cause for scepticism?

I respectfully suggest you do a bit more research before accusing others and taking petty pot-shots.

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:
drumlins4ever:Would "what HiFi" be willing to take part in the JREFÿchallengeÿ?

ÿ

May I ask what cables you use drumlins, and why?

ÿ

I forget the name and brand of my own interconnects but they are well made and were not too expensive. bought 2nd hand too. they should last me a long time.ÿ

The silver speaker cable is made by monitor audio , the reason i use it is because it was given to me by a member of family for free and it appears to be well made.

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:
James Randi - or Randall Zwinge, to give him his real name - is a stage magician, illusionist (he developed the fake guillotine Alice Cooper used on tour) and performer.

Why would refusing to perform with a magician be any cause for scepticism?ÿ

I respectfully suggest you do a bit more research before accusing others and taking petty pot-shots.

I am very well aware of who James Randi isÿand that he did once work as a stage performer and illusionist , but to the best of my knowdledge he does not work as a professional illusionist anymore.

ÿButÿI don't see what that has got to do with how the JREF conduct their tests.

The people who work in the "non-profit" JREFÿorganizationÿmostly come from a scientific background.

What if one of the big Englishÿuniversitiesÿgot involved too, would they haveÿsufficientÿcredentials for you ?

Not taking petty pot-shots here ,ÿgenuinelyÿwould love to see such a test carried out.

 

[Andrew Everard]

And whoosh, there go those goal-posts again...

 

[Anonymous]

Andrew Everard:And whoosh, there go those goal-posts again...

ÿ

Not sure if i follow your sometimes cryptic comments.

What i mean is , would you be happy to take the JREF challenge if it was carried outÿindependentlyÿby one of the big English PhysicsÿUniversitiesÿto a protocol agreed to by all parties ?ÿ

Simple questionÿ

 

[Andrew Everard]

No, I would not be happy to take any challenge issued by that self-publicising operation - "Become a sponsor for $2500 or more, and get a personal phone call from James Randi" - whoever was administering it.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do.

 

[Anonymous]

I would suggest having a look at the Harbeth info I mentioned earlier.

It may be that your ears differ from day to day for reasons of stress, illness, being relaxed, having had an argument, etc. etc. That is not the same thing as differences between cables, only that you hear them differently on different days under different circumstances. In fact, if they were to be measured, they would remain unchanged.

 

[matthewpiano]

Septicman:
I would suggest having a look at the Harbeth info I mentioned earlier.

It may be that your ears differ from day to day for reasons of stress, illness, being relaxed, having had an argument, etc. etc. That is not the same thing as differences between cables, only that you hear them differently on different days under different circumstances. In fact, if they were to be measured, they would remain unchanged.

No. In A/B comparisons in the same listening session I can hear a clear difference between cables. Repeating the comparisons yields exactly the same results. Whether the measured results support my findings or not is of absolutely no consequence to me at all. I listen to music with my own ears and so it is the judgement of those apparently under valued resources that I trust the most.

 

[Anonymous]

WOW

You've all read it

For whatever reasons "What HiFi" are not up for the JREF challenge under any circumstances.

Furthermoreÿit seems that there is an intense dislike of James Randi in many Audio Magazines .

Why is this the case ? ÿMake your own mind up.

ÿ

ÿ

 

[matthewpiano]

drumlins4ever:
WOW

You've all read it

For whatever reasons "What HiFi" are not up for the JREF challenge under any circumstances.

Furthermoreÿit seems that there is an intense dislike of James Randi in many Audio Magazines .

Why is this the case ? ÿMake your own mind up.

ÿ

ÿ

Have you taken the JREF challenge?

 

[Andrew Everard]

drumlins4ever:WOW
You've all read it

For whatever reasons "What HiFi" are not up for the JREF challenge under any circumstances.

No "WOW" about it. We've stated this several times in the past, for the reasons I have attempted to outline above.

Your logic is along the lines of "If she floats, she's a witch, and we burn her; if she drowns, she's innocent"

drumlins4ever:Furthermore it seems that there is an intense dislike of James Randi in many Audio Magazines.

Can't imagine why...

drumlins4ever:Why is this the case ? Make your own mind up.

Oh, I think your mind was made up long, long ago.

I'll say it again, very slowly and carefully: If you believe spending money on cables brings an improvement to the performance of your system, be happy in your purchase; if you don't, don't spend the money, and be just as happy.

After all, that money you've saved will go a way toward your sponsorship package, and that personal phone call from James Randi.

 

[aliEnRIK]

I would not even attempt to take his test because the of the dumb rules he sets and because he has enough money to challenge even mighty firms if he so wishes by bending the rules however he sees fit.

I WOULD agree to a blind test and a taster of his $1 million if I was allowed to test against some Nordost 'silver wind' and my own custom made solid silver cables (Or my vdh 'teatrack') and listen to a song of MY choice the WHOLE way through each time

And it was using a VERY good hifi (Id take my OWN mains conditioner, mains cables and interconnects and all components and speakers are at least 2k in price and VERY highly regarded as being decent hifi equipment). The components sat on a good quality hifi rack and the speakers are absolutely SOLID and free from vibration and cannot be moved by simply giving a slight push. Id want the whole system to run for 24 hours solid before taking the test and be well used in general (I dont want any NEW components or speakers).

They could then double blind test me as many times as they like and I personally guarantee id get those answers correct every time (Id simply choose some REAL bass heavy track as the solar wind is as light as a breeze for cable).

If hes willing to pay 1 million to anyone that CAN tell the difference between ANY speaker cables then he should be willing to pay a little up front for some half decent hifi equipment and a decent setup

But this would never happen as Randi has his OWN rules which makes it near impossible to prove anything using HIS blind tests (Really not worth the paper theyre wrote on)

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:drumlins4ever:
WOW

You've all read it

For whatever reasons "What HiFi" are not up for the JREF challenge under any circumstances.

Furthermoreÿit seems that there is an intense dislike of James Randi in many Audio Magazines .

Why is this the case ? ÿMake your own mind up.

ÿ

ÿ

Have you taken the JREF challenge?

ÿ

No, ÿbut i don't manufacture cables or make claims inÿwidelyÿread publications that these cables sound better.ÿ

 

[matthewpiano]

But they state those differences as their own opinion based on their own listening, just as I do. As I said before, I hear a clear difference between different cables. It doesn't need to be backed up scientifically or proven under special conditions because I can hear it with my own ears. Its subjective and other people might hear no difference or hear the difference in a different way. That doesn't change the way I hear it any more than a scientific test or comparison would. Most things in life don't have a definitive answer so why waste time and energy looking for one. I am very happy with the improvements that my £120 interconnect and £11 per metre speaker cable made. If they don't do it for you, dont buy them. Stick with the freebie stuff and save the cash!