Fine tuning the White Balance on my new LG 50PS8000

[admin_exported]

First of all, what a great TV!

Anyway, using the HD Essentials Blu-Ray I've set the Brightness, Contrast, Sharpness and fine-tuned the R G B C M Y levels using the TV's own R G and B filters (thought that was a nice touch!)

Reading the TV's full manual, though, there are White Balance options that my tiny brain simply doesn't understand:

a. • Method : 2 Points

• Pattern: Inner, Outer

• Red/Green/Blue Contrast, Red/Green/Blue Brightness:

The adjustment range is -50 ~ +50.

b. • Method : 20 Point IRE

• Pattern: Inner / Outer

• IRE (Institute of Radio Engineers) is the unit to display the size of the video signal and can be set among 5, 10, 15 - 100,

. You can adjust Red, Green or Blue according to each setting.

• Red/Green/Blue: The adjustment range is -50 ~ +50.

Can anyone please explain what on earth this all means and whether I can use this feature to even further improve the picture?

Thanks

 

[D.J.KRIME]

Differant TV's have differant names for certain settings but I think what you are refering to here seeing as you mention IRE 0-100 is the greyscale settings of the TV where you adjust the indivuial RGB setting for both the Gain and the Offset (one affecting the amount of R G B in the lower end and one in the higher end)

To correctly adjust the greyscale you will need to use a colouromiter/sensor and PC software.

More in depth info HERE

 

[Anonymous]

Brilliant link. Thanks for your help. I've ordered a Spyder2 and am now tagged on to the other topic about calibration. Hopefully I can get my head around it!

 

[Anonymous]

As promised, I'm posting my feedback here.

As recommended by you guys I bought a Sypder3Pro, downloaded the ColorHFCR software and also burned the colour chart Blu-ray as recommended in the link posted above (which I repeat is absolutely brilliant).

Using this set-up I was able to identify that the settings I had applied using the DVD Essentials Blu-ray were pants. I had the Gamma at completely the wrong end, and in enabling the High-black setting had reduced the greyscale and Gamma to mush.

I've now completed the greyscale calibration part of the instructions and am happy that with about 60% of my greyscale now under a DeltaE of 3 (so near as damn-it to D65), including the critical 40-70 IRE range, that's as close as I'm going to get.

That was by adjusting the Red & Blue Contrast & Brightness settings in the LG's Expert colour management module.

However, I have another question for you experts:

These adjustments (R & B Bright & Cont) apply across the IRE scale, so there is obviously compromise to try and get a flat greyscale graph. But the LG also enables you to set R G & B (it doesn't say whether it's Brightness or Contrast) at every IRE level from 0 to 100 in 5 IRE increments. BUT. I tried this and found even if I set the R and/or B to +/- 50, this was having no effect whatsoever on the xy reading from the test material.

So Q. Have I misunderstood the purpose of this extra 20-point IRE setting on the TV?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Mez:
However, I have another question for you experts:

These adjustments (R & B Bright & Cont) apply across the IRE scale, so there is obviously compromise to try and get a flat greyscale graph. But the LG also enables you to set R G & B (it doesn't say whether it's Brightness or Contrast) at every IRE level from 0 to 100 in 5 IRE increments. BUT. I tried this and found even if I set the R and/or B to +/- 50, this was having no effect whatsoever on the xy reading from the test material.

So Q. Have I misunderstood the purpose of this extra 20-point IRE setting on the TV?

Good question! Clearly it doesnt actually effect the grescale so does it effect luminance? (1st graph I think it is). Red, green and blue should follow the YELLOW line perfectly (Or nearest you can get it)

 

[Anonymous]

It's a thought ...

But just trying to think of the practical application ... that would effectively be a contrast control for every level of IRE? But why achieve that using RGB separately? And doesn't the very definition of the IRE scale mean that each level is a set % of the Y value at 100%IRE (white) anyway, so you can't alter the relative Y value of each level of grey?

I feel an email to LG brewing ... !

 

[D.J.KRIME]

Don't get your hopes up too much on getting much help from LG as most of their normal level staff will not have a clue once you start going on about grey scale etc.

It is interesting tho to see that the previous settings you were using via a set-up DVD/BD and your eye were way off the mark, and it is vital to any TV's proformance that as near to D65 grey scale is achieved as this has serious knock on effects on all other aspects of the TV's picture.

A important question is which picture do you personally prefer the DVD based set of settings or the Probe based set?

 

[Anonymous]

Mez:
It's a thought ...

But just trying to think of the practical application ... that would effectively be a contrast control for every level of IRE? But why achieve that using RGB separately? And doesn't the very definition of the IRE scale mean that each level is a set % of the Y value at 100%IRE (white) anyway, so you can't alter the relative Y value of each level of grey?

I feel an email to LG brewing ... !

Ok some confusion creaping in here. The LG allows 20 point greyscale adjustment, its the first and only consumer display to do this. To use the 20 point, you can either use the built in greyfields at various ire levels or a disc/pattern generator signal to produce the 5% steps of grey.

To use the built in patterns, select inner, to select a disc/pattern generator select outer.

In a 20 point adjustment you don't need contrast/brightness for the RGB. This is because you are actually selecting the exact part of the greyscale you want to adjust i.e. 30ire and you only need to adjust the RGB for that level. Contrast and brightness controls are used for a 2 point greyscale set up i.e. contrast for high level adjustment at 80ire and brightness for low adjustment 30ire

I have calibrated 4 or 5 LGs now and have managed dE errors under 1 across the range, the adjustment level of these TVs is reference level for a consumer display.

By adjusting the RGB levels at each point as I have said above will bring the greyscale in and your Y level is determined by hitting those points along with correct gamma curve. I found that you have to set the gamma point before starting your greyscale calibration so it tracks correctly on the LGs.

Tip: in a 20 point calibration start at 100% and work down. Do that until 70ire and then run a sweep with your software to check those points then continue and repeat.

 

[D.J.KRIME]

David Fuller:Mez:

It's a thought ...

But just trying to think of the practical application ... that would effectively be a contrast control for every level of IRE? But why achieve that using RGB separately? And doesn't the very definition of the IRE scale mean that each level is a set % of the Y value at 100%IRE (white) anyway, so you can't alter the relative Y value of each level of grey?

I feel an email to LG brewing ... !

I have calibrated 4 or 5 LGs now and have managed dE errors under 1 across the range, the adjustment level of these TVs is reference level for a consumer display.

I wish My Samsung had more advanced adjustment setting like this LG as I have got the greyscale as near to following the D65 line as I can buy useing the RGB Gain/Offset controls. I did dip my toe into the service menu but was not really sure exactly what the controls in there would effect so thought best left well alone

 

[Anonymous]

D.J.KRIME:David Fuller:Mez:

It's a thought ...

But just trying to think of the practical application ... that would effectively be a contrast control for every level of IRE? But why achieve that using RGB separately? And doesn't the very definition of the IRE scale mean that each level is a set % of the Y value at 100%IRE (white) anyway, so you can't alter the relative Y value of each level of grey?

I feel an email to LG brewing ... !

I have calibrated 4 or 5 LGs now and have managed dE errors under 1 across the range, the adjustment level of these TVs is reference level for a consumer display.

I wish My Samsung had more advanced adjustment setting like this LG as I have got the greyscale as near to following the D65 line as I can buy useing the RGB Gain/Offset controls. I did dip my toe into the service menu but was not really sure exactly what the controls in there would effect so thought best left well alone

Much will depend on your probe and it's accuracy. The Spyders are not that accurate and not factory calibrated. The new Spyder 3 when used with CalMAN has been tweaked so it carries calibrated files and gets very close to accuracy. The Spyder will get you varying results and as a quick, 'get it better than out of the box' it works ok. But to get real accuracy and low dE results that can be trusted you need something like the i1 pro and accurate software such as CalMAN. HCFR is ok for free, but it lacks some important areas such as colour luminance for CMS adjustment.

Using the right tools can get the Samsungs very close (2008 models and above). However, the LED backlit sets require a lot of work and the right probe due to the change in light delivery.

 

[D.J.KRIME]

I currently have the Spyder3 and did use the colourHCFR software so am I going to get much better off results if I invest into calMAN as the software you get as a home user does not allow you to use all the tools you get at profesional level of software liecence AFAIK. Or would I get better results from changing to a differant probe?

My Tv is Samsung PS-50P96FD full HD Plaz which was purchased mid May 2008 so is this set one of the Samsung's you refer to?

 

[Anonymous]

D.J.KRIME:
I currently have the Spyder3 and did use the colourHCFR software so am I going to get much better off results if I invest into calMAN as the software you get as a home user does not allow you to use all the tools you get at profesional level of software liecence AFAIK. Or would I get better results from changing to a differant probe?

My Tv is Samsung PS-50P96FD full HD Plaz which was purchased mid May 2008 so is this set one of the Samsung's you refer to?

Have a look at the CalMAN software, download the trial and use it with the built in test probe, see what you think. The Spyder3 that is more accurate comes from CalMAN as they hand calibrate and upload the software to them to make them more accurate.

It all depends on what you want to achieve. CalMAN has a real pain in the **** interface and takes some getting used to. But, it does offer real time results for things like x,y,Y when calibrating colour through a CMS, where HCFR only allows you to see x&y. So as the strength of colour we see is the luminance part (Y) you might line up x&y correctly to Rec.709 but your luminance is way off and the colours are not correct.

Like I say, it depends on how much you want to spend and what you want to achieve. A Spyder is ...lets say entry level as the probes accuracy can vary from one to another. It does things ok, but you can't trust it 100% to be repeatable. You could look at the CalMAN deal with their hand picked and calibrated Spyder3 probe as a package. You then move to the i1 pro which is far more trustworthy and produces repeatable results over the last two. You can then go anywhere up to £30k from that point.

 

[D.J.KRIME]

Cost is the main issue for most of us home users who wish to achieve better results over the "out of the box" rubbish settings or say using a THX optimiser on a DVD.

Generally speaking we are all trying to get the "BEST" we can out of our equipment by using tools we can afford to use. I paid about £90 for my spyder3 and at the time I got quotes in the region of £300 for a ISF calibration (tho according to my local specilist AV shop this would be a waste of money as my Plaz is a Samsung!)

So am I at this point better off getting a PRO to calibrate my set or investing say a simular amount £300 into a better probe and calMAN?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Unless you strive for absolute perfection then your fine as you are DJ

If you MUST have perfection then you may as well fork out for a proper ISF calibration as theyll be able to get into the service menu and set it up as good as possible

I doubt youd see much (If any) difference between what you have now and a true ISF calibration (So long as youve set the tv within the known limitations of the sensor)

 

[Anonymous]

Guys you've done me proud.

When I first looked at the 20-point IRE I did have the Gamma set at normal which I subsequently realised was only giving me about 1.7 Gamma. So now I've set it to high I'll have another crack at using the 20-point. Intuitively it tells me it must be more accurate but I was confused as to why I wasn't seeing any change in the xy at 100% & 90% IRE.

I'm using a Spyder3 and the ColorHCFR v.2.1 because, frankly, I've just got married, spent the £1,200 wedding present on the TV and now I'm potless until the kids grow up and starting paying me protection money.

So when my step-son wakes up I'll be commandeering his laptop for another crack at achieving this legendary dE 1!

Mind you, yesterday the TV showed me that England had taken 8 Australian wickets in one day so I think there's something wrong somewhere ...

 

[D.J.KRIME]

Mez:

Mind you, yesterday the TV showed me that England had taken 8 Australian wickets in one day so I think there's something wrong somewhere ...

Oddly enough My plaz also developed that fault yesterday, but I am sure it will correct it's self over the weekend

 

[Anonymous]

Right! Dilemma guys!

I revisited the 20-point IRE scale and found that in the 10-60 IRE range the R G B controls on the LG did indeed bring the greyscale right in to D65 and so I'm below a dE of 1 for that range, compared to a dE of about 3 using the 2-point method! Magic!

The trouble is, the 70 IRE is WAY out and I can't get it anywhere near! I mean, it's not even grey, it's brown there's so much red in it. But even dropping the Red down to -50 I can't get the dE below 40, never mind 1! So at the moment, skin tones have a really noticeable 'glare' under certain lighting where the 70-IRE shades are not even in the same room as the rest of the scale.

Has anyone else come across this with the LG 50PS8000?

And can anyone think of any compensating adjustments I can make to bring the 70IRE in line so I can enjoy the benefits of the otherwise perfect grey-scale?

 

[aliEnRIK]

That sounds really odd to me. Have you anything else switched on that could effect it? (Contrast enhance or any of that garbage?)

Have you tried using a different source?

 

[Anonymous]

Not that I can tell.

Dynamic Contrast is off.

Noise Reduction is off.

Gamma is High (this gets me to about 2.0-2.1)

Black Level is Low (needed this to improve the Y luminescence)

Colour Gamut is Standard

Edge Enhancer is Off

White Balance is Warm (the starting point for my adjustments)

I've tried the 70IRE greyscale window from my HD essentials blu-ray as well as the 'Inner' greyscale pattern on the TV itself and get the same result with both. I've also watched the Sky+ HD on both HD and SD content using the settings (with the 70IRE way out) and you can see the undesirable 'glare' effect.

So I've reverted back to the 2-point IRE for now while I work out what to do!

 

[aliEnRIK]

It might not be possible but try selecting a lower gamma output and change the reg, green and blue HIGH setting to put it back up again (If memory serves youd need to LOWER it to RAISE the gamma)

 

[Anonymous]

I've decided to try the callibration process from scratch on the "Normal" white balance setting rather than "Warm". This should reduce the high red levels at the high-end of the IRE scale, and hopefully I can still get the mid-range down to the 1 dE level. I'll also play with the gamma setting as you suggest.

 

[Anonymous]

Big fat raspberry to that idea! The "Normal" White Balance setting was way too blue. So I set it back to "Warm" and tried again with the grey-scale callibration. Guess what? It's even further away now than before. This time, rather than the 70IRE being way too red, it's the 60IRE. I really can't explain this. It just sticks out like a sore thumb from the rest of the grey-scale, being about 120% red despite turning the red at that IRE level right down to -50.

So I'm sticking with the 2-point callibration and the more traditional R G B Brightness & Contrast settings across the scale. The average dE might be higher, but at least the curve is smooth and therefore the differences are unnoticeable. Under the 20-point system with the 60IRE grey being so far out from the rest of the scale, it was just unwatchable.

I don't suppose anyone else has experienced this problem? Might it just be my set?!

 

[aliEnRIK]

Ive just been doing a quick 'google' and it seems it may well be a design fault in the tv. I cant find anyone whos actually tried to calibrate it (yet), but those that have reviewd it have mentioned its 'odd clours' regardless of setting

 

[Anonymous]

What do you have your contrast set at? Take it down to 60/70 and try again. Seems to be a bug in some sets where the 60ire and above sometimes stick and don't move when you adjust them, with contrast set too high.

 

[aliEnRIK]

David Fuller:What do you have your contrast set at? Take it down to 60/70 and try again. Seems to be a bug in some sets where the 60ire and above sometimes stick and don't move when you adjust them, with contrast set too high.

An interesting answer, but surely it should be fine of contrast is properly calibrated? or is THAT too high? (if so that is one MAJOR flaw of the tvs design)