Lossless audio is not that important

[Friesiansam]

The "ignore" button can be very useful, I've just used it myself.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

The "ignore" button can be very useful, I've just used it myself.

I prefer not to except in extreme cases, but you do you.

 

[Jasonovich]

That's not true. Not doing blind testing is flawed. Blind testing is a gold standard in science. Please stop making things up.

You seem to be regurgitating the same yawn, ok.
I've plagiarised from another article below, why this is flawed.
You can do the due diligence and investigate in your own time

Here's why blind listening can be flawed:

• Left-brain dominance:
  Blind A/B comparisons primarily engage the left brain, which is analytical. Music appreciation, however, often involves the right brain and emotional engagement.
  
  
• Limited perception:
  Blind tests may not capture the nuances of sound that contribute to a positive listening experience, such as musicality, clarity, or imaging.
  
  
• Expectation bias:
  Even in blind tests, participants' prior expectations or biases can influence their perception of sound, leading to inaccurate results.
  
  
• "Zen-like state" needed:
  Some argue that the ideal listening environment for discerning subtle differences in sound requires a calm, attentive mindset, which may not be easily replicated in a blind test.
  
  
• Statistical significance:
  It can be difficult to draw meaningful conclusions from blind listening tests, especially when the number of participants or samples is small.

In conclusion, blind listening tests can be a useful tool for identifying objective differences in sound, but they should not be solely relied upon to determine subjective preferences or the overall quality of an audio experience.

 

[Gray]

The best approach is to have a group of people in same room. Collectively their findings without prejudice should determine the outcome.

That's precisely what used to happen with Hi-Choice's grouptest reviews.
None of the listening panel knew what they were listening to, each sat making their own notes.
After, notes were compared.
On the occasions when all had picked up on the same qualities (good or bad) we all got a meaningful outcome.

These days their grouptests are the work of a single reviewer, with full knowledge of..... prices, reputations, other reviewers opinions etc.....so nothing like as meaningful for potential buyers.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

That's precisely what used to happen with Hi-Choice's grouptest reviews.
None of the listening panel knew what they were listening to, each sat making their own notes.
After, notes were compared.
On the occasions when all had picked up on the same qualities (good or bad) we all got a meaningful outcome.

These days their grouptests are the work of a single reviewer, with full knowledge of..... prices, reputations, other reviewers opinions etc.....so nothing like as meaningful for potential buyers.

That's true. HiFi Choice wasn't great though. We don't know just how rigorously the blind testing was done, and they often gave opinions from single listeners ("one reviewer thought...") from the blind tests which aren't particularly meaningful.

Certainly however they did avoid worshiping the Marantz KI sig CD63 CD player, unlike What HiFi which had a very unhealthy love for that thing.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Everything should be reviewed without anyone knowing what they are listening to, so price and any brand loyalty or bias isn't part of the outcome.

The thing is the whole thing would fall apart as people wouldn't be able to hear adequate differences between most products outside of speakers and headphones.

 

[Jasonovich]

That's precisely what used to happen with Hi-Choice's grouptest reviews.
None of the listening panel knew what they were listening to, each sat making their own notes.
After, notes were compared.
On the occasions when all had picked up on the same qualities (good or bad) we all got a meaningful outcome.

These days their grouptests are the work of a single reviewer, with full knowledge of..... prices, reputations, other reviewers opinions etc.....so nothing like as meaningful for potential buyers.

Thanks Gray, I do recall those group HiFi Choice testing.
It's a shame it's no longer practiced.

 

[davidf]

Who is trolling? I'm certainly not.

Look at this from other people's perspectives. You have a budget system. Thats not a comment on its quality, just its price point. It might sound amazing, it might not, but the main thing is, YOU enjoy it. But you're starting numerous threads on a forum that is for audiophiles and musicphiles in which you post videos of YouTubers who are trying to be "edgy" (i.e., trying to get noticed) by trying to get other people's backs up by going against the grain to gain engagement and make money from it.

Getting your point across should be done once. Not continuously in the same thread or multiple different threads. Make your point once, people will read it, and if it resonates, it will stick and people will take notice - if it doesn't, no one cares.

 

[Jasonovich]

Look at this from other people's perspectives. You have a budget system. Thats not a comment on its quality, just its price point. It might sound amazing, it might not, but the main thing is, YOU enjoy it. But you're starting numerous threads on a forum that is for audiophiles and musicphiles in which you post videos of YouTubers who are trying to be "edgy" (i.e., trying to get noticed) by trying to get other people's backs up by going against the grain to gain engagement and make money from it.

Getting your point across should be done once. Not continuously in the same thread or multiple different threads. Make your point once, people will read it, and if it resonates, it will stick and people will take notice - if it doesn't, no one cares.

Your comments resonate with me, there's cohesion, maturity and impartiality.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Look at this from other people's perspectives. You have a budget system. Thats not a comment on its quality, just its price point. It might sound amazing, it might not, but the main thing is, YOU enjoy it. But you're starting numerous threads on a forum that is for audiophiles and musicphiles in which you post videos of YouTubers who are trying to be "edgy" (i.e., trying to get noticed) by trying to get other people's backs up by going against the grain to gain engagement and make money from it.

Getting your point across should be done once. Not continuously in the same thread or multiple different threads. Make your point once, people will read it, and if it resonates, it will stick and people will take notice - if it doesn't, no one cares.

There's nothing edgy with pushing science over subjectivity. That's the proper approach. My system may not be as expensive as some people's here but there are others with similar opinions to myself who actually do have expensive systems and have tried some very expensive equipment. Amir at Audio Science Review, for example. The guys at headphones.com have all used expensive stuff and tend to have similar views to my own, and the guy who made the video at the start of this thread has used very expensive equipment also.

So when people start pointing out my modest system in these discussions I just laugh. And not least because it actually measures very well (and yes that is important).

 

[twinkletoes]

So @ToppingSMSL are you saying you can’t hear difference? Is that what you’re getting on at?
Do you agree with the sentiments in the video.

Forgive me if you have already stated this.

 

[podknocker]

Lossless formats such as CD, or FLAC copies of CD, can only be appreciated with a high resolution system anyway. If your system is mediocre, FLAC and mp3 files probably sound very similar. A very high resolution system will reveal the quality of a lossless format and ruthlessly reveal the limitations of an mp3 file. Many people don't care about the last bit of quality in their music and I'm one of them with my Spotify account. Choice and convenience are my priorities now, although high res Spotify would be welcome.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

So @ToppingSMSL are you saying you can’t hear difference? Is that what you’re getting on at?
Do you agree with the sentiments in the video.

Forgive me if you have already stated this.

I agree with the video that any differences you have to focus hard to hear and they are nowhere near as important as headphone and speaker differences. It's quite simple really

 

[podknocker]

I bet I can. A CD based system, like my Audiolab Omnia and NOT anything vinyl based. Vinyl is inherently low res.

 

[podknocker]

Vinyl isn't going to be FLAC or MP3

I defiined what you said I couldn't define and now you're moving the goalposts. My system has a high res CD player, which I don't use and I use a lower quality streaming platform instead.

 

[davidf]

There's nothing edgy with pushing science over subjectivity. That's the proper approach. My system may not be as expensive as some people's here but there are others with similar opinions to myself who actually do have expensive systems and have tried some very expensive equipment. Amir at Audio Science Review, for example. The guys at headphones.com have all used expensive stuff and tend to have similar views to my own, and the guy who made the video at the start of this thread has used very expensive equipment also.

So when people start pointing out my modest system in these discussions I just laugh. And not least because it actually measures very well (and yes that is important).

People are free to do and choose whatever they want. If they want to enjoy their system with compressed music, that's up to them. If they want to spend a fortune on high quality electronics just to listen to MP3, that's up to them. If their system cannot convey the difference between MP3 and WAV/FLAC files, then understandably, they can stick to MP3. If their ears cannot detect differences between MP3 and WAV/FLAC files, they've got less to worry about than everybody else.

What you get out of any single product is purely dependent on what you put into it. Sh*t in, sh*t out, as the saying goes. Nothing in the audio chain is going to make up for what's already missing from the source signal. I find some systems can present compressed music in a more forgiving way than others, in so much that it can make it quite presentable. But it still has information missing. Always remember people banging on about how good MiniDisc players were, which removed around 90% of the original signal. They were convenient, rugged, and allowed you to do what you used to be able to do with tape, but it was massively compressed, and this was quite noticeable if you focused on decay and ambient information. It comes down to knowing what you're listening for, rather than just comparing tonal balance. But no-one really cared back in the 90s, thanks to the likes of Napster and Apple.

FWIW, a few years ago I used to fall asleep listening to music gently playing back on my phone. Same album, every night. Initially, that was via Spotify. When I started using a TIDAL account and playing the same album, I could hear the difference between the two, no comparison needed.

Whenever you see people starting a post with "hot take" (his own words), more often than not it ends up being a post purely designed to create engagement - after all, it's how some of these people get paid. And if they don't have a proper job, they need to do a lot of 'hot taking'. What's worse than that is when people share them across social media and present them as indisputable truths.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Thread temporarily locked, as I haven't the time to go through it and remove all the posts that are personal in nature.

You all know the rules.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Open again, subject to forum rules. If they aren't adhered to, it'll be locked permanently.

 

[twinkletoes]

I agree with the video that any differences you have to focus hard to hear and they are nowhere near as important as headphone and speaker differences. It's quite simple really

I find it strange that people can’t hear the difference between MP3 and Flac/WAV, and those same people then passionately claim to be able to hear the difference between legacy formats.

It’s an interesting observation is all, and a conversation not completely without merit.

Ill be the first to admit I can’t reliably hear the differences between MP3/Spotify and higher bit rate formats. But I can hear the difference between a good master and a bad one.

SO, What are you hearing? A bad master or a bad format?

So yes I agree with his statement there are more important things to worry about than resolution of a file.

 

[Jasonovich]

I find it strange that people can’t hear the difference between MP3 and Flac/WAV, and those same people then passionately claim to be able to hear the difference between legacy formats.

It’s an interesting observation is all, and a conversation not completely without merit.

Ill be the first to admit I can’t reliably hear the differences between MP3/Spotify and higher bit rate formats. But I can hear the difference between a good master and a bad one.

SO, What are you hearing? A bad master or a bad format?

So yes I agree with his statement there are more important things to worry about than resolution of a file.

I don't understand it either, not unless their music playing devices are not hi-res enough to make the differences.
I can even hear the subtle differences between CD and SACD and subtle differences between SACD and very high res DSD.
It all boils down to your own personal and specific parameters, if what you have pulls the right cords and it extracts music that sends you to a special place, surely that's the only qualification needed.

I think the scientific aspects of it should remain a discussion outside HiFi.
In my own personal opinion, music playing devices with the perfect linear measurement doesn't necessarily correlate to the best sound quality?

 

[twinkletoes]

I don't understand it either, not unless their music playing devices are not hi-res enough to make the differences.
I can even hear the subtle differences between CD and SACD and subtle differences between SACD and very high res DSD.
It all boils down to your own personal and specific parameters, if what you have pulls the right cords and it extracts music that sends you to a special place, surely that's the only qualification needed.

I think the scientific aspects of it should remain a discussion outside HiFi.
In my own personal opinion, music playing devices with the perfect linear measurement doesn't necessarily correlate to the best sound quality?

Well science will say and I agree it's just fact. If an item/product measures 20 20, regardless of price, those differences should be apparent, so the " it's not hi res enough' doesn't really hold sway in my opinion. BUT!BUT! there is also scientific practice and are brains are very very very good at filling in the missing pieces ,thats also a scientific fact, this is what makes it hard for us humans to quantify. Which is why we need tools to tell us, so if we need tools to tell us the differences it would stand to reason, Nobody absolutely nobody can reliably tell the difference. Before anybody says im not saying you can't hear the difference just you can't reliably do so.

In short yeah I agree the science should stay on the table because in practice the science doesn't add up to our brains and ears in the real world.

Fully agree, perfectly linear products are more tools then anything and don't equate to "best sound" and even music engineers will say as much, we just dont hear like that. Hence the harman curve and things of that ilk. So again I dont get that crowd and that loud voice, but if thats how they get there enjoyment from the hobby who am I to argue with that.

As we have/you have just stated the only qualification needed is fun!

 

[Jasonovich]

Well science will say and I agree it's just fact. If an item/product measures 20 20, regardless of price, those differences should be apparent, so the " it's not hi res enough' doesn't really hold sway in my opinion. BUT!BUT! there is also scientific practice and are brains are very very very good at filling in the missing pieces ,thats also a scientific fact, this is what makes it hard for us humans to quantify. Which is why we need tools to tell us, so if we need tools to tell us the differences it would stand to reason, Nobody absolutely nobody can reliably tell the difference. Before anybody says im not saying you can't hear the difference just you can't reliably do so.

In short yeah I agree the science should stay on the table because in practice the science doesn't add up to our brains and ears in the real world.

Fully agree, perfectly linear products are more tools then anything and don't equate to "best sound" and even music engineers will say as much, we just dont hear like that. Hence the harman curve and things of that ilk. So again I dont get that crowd and that loud voice, but if thats how they get there enjoyment from the hobby who am I to argue with that.

As we have/you have just started the only qualification needed is fun!

Yes, excellent point!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Spotify Premium only user.

 

[Vincent Kars]

In my own personal opinion, music playing devices with the perfect linear measurement doesn't necessarily correlate to the best sound quality?

I often read postings like "I have read all the reviews on the internet and all reviewers agree, this is a neutral headphone. I bought it. Why is it so horribly boring?"

Indeed, if you are 20-30 year old, you are raised with todays consumer gear. You are used to a V shaped frequency response. Heavy bass, brilliant treble, all at the expense of the midrange. So neutral sounds boring to you. But this is about taste (or lack of).

Gear should be true to the source. The logical consequence is it must be linear, as low as possible on distortion, low noise floor, etc. etc. It shouldn't color.
If you don't like that, it is your taste. You are used to something non-linear. So bring in a sub-woofer and create a 10 dB peak at 100 Hz.....

 

[Jasonovich]

I often read postings like "I have read all the reviews on the internet and all reviewers agree, this is a neutral headphone. I bought it. Why is it so horribly boring?"

Indeed, if you are 20-30 year old, you are raised with todays consumer gear. You are used to a V shaped frequency response. Heavy bass, brilliant treble, all at the expense of the midrange. So neutral sounds boring to you. But this is about taste (or lack of).

Gear should be true to the source. The logical consequence is it must be linear, as low as possible on distortion, low noise floor, etc. etc. It shouldn't color.
If you don't like that, it is your taste. You are used to something non-linear. So bring in a sub-woofer and create a 10 dB peak at 100 Hz.....

V shape isn't my preference, midrange is the anchor that holds the essence of the music with a fair representation of the higher and lower frequencies.

I think my preference is for a transparent revealing sound, fair amount of detail, maybe ever so slightly tinged with warmth at the edges to add a little soul to the mostly neutral sound.