Schbeemb:
JoelSim,
What do you mean by 'unsurprisingly so' ?ÿ
That's a question for them rather than me.
ÿ
JoelSim,
What do you mean by 'unsurprisingly so' ?ÿ
That's a question for them rather than me.
ÿ
idc
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JoelSim:
I am not looking forward to the future listening tests though. This month we test the top 10 music machines. Next month we test the same 10 music machines. As we've had to close down our listening facilities because we only sell 5 copies a month, next month's test will take place in the reception at Cheshunt with special guest listener Terry Leahy.
This doomsday scenario is not going to happen. From what I have read in this thread all that is likely to happen is that CDPs will go the way of turntables and become a smaller part of the market. The market will be dominated by PCs, purpose built music servers, DACs in and out of amps and speakers and the variations are way more than just CDPs. That is what the market has been, primarily CDPs with record players, minidisc, cassettes and laser discs all either falling away or disappearing totally. If anything your scenario describes what has been the case for the past 10 years (this month the top 10 CDPs, next month the same), not what is going to happen in the future.
I am not looking forward to the future listening tests though. This month we test the top 10 music machines. Next month we test the same 10 music machines. As we've had to close down our listening facilities because we only sell 5 copies a month, next month's test will take place in the reception at Cheshunt with special guest listener Terry Leahy.
This doomsday scenario is not going to happen. From what I have read in this thread all that is likely to happen is that CDPs will go the way of turntables and become a smaller part of the market. The market will be dominated by PCs, purpose built music servers, DACs in and out of amps and speakers and the variations are way more than just CDPs. That is what the market has been, primarily CDPs with record players, minidisc, cassettes and laser discs all either falling away or disappearing totally. If anything your scenario describes what has been the case for the past 10 years (this month the top 10 CDPs, next month the same), not what is going to happen in the future.
idc:JoelSim:
I am not looking forward to the future listening tests though. This month we test the top 10 music machines. Next month we test the same 10 music machines. As we've had to close down our listening facilities because we only sell 5 copies a month, next month's test will take place in the reception at Cheshunt with special guest listener Terry Leahy.
This doomsday scenario is not going to happen. Fromÿwhat I have read in this thread all that is likely to happen is that CDPs will go the way of turntables and become a smaller part of the market. The market will be dominated by PCs, purpose built music servers, DACs in and out of amps and speakers and the variations are way more than just CDPs. That is what the market has been, primarily CDPs with record players, minidisc, cassettes and laser discs all either falling away or disappearing totally. If anything your scenario describesÿwhat has been the case for the past 10 years (this month the top 10 CDPs, next month the same), not what is going to happen in the future.
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
ÿ
I am not looking forward to the future listening tests though. This month we test the top 10 music machines. Next month we test the same 10 music machines. As we've had to close down our listening facilities because we only sell 5 copies a month, next month's test will take place in the reception at Cheshunt with special guest listener Terry Leahy.
This doomsday scenario is not going to happen. Fromÿwhat I have read in this thread all that is likely to happen is that CDPs will go the way of turntables and become a smaller part of the market. The market will be dominated by PCs, purpose built music servers, DACs in and out of amps and speakers and the variations are way more than just CDPs. That is what the market has been, primarily CDPs with record players, minidisc, cassettes and laser discs all either falling away or disappearing totally. If anything your scenario describesÿwhat has been the case for the past 10 years (this month the top 10 CDPs, next month the same), not what is going to happen in the future.
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
ÿ
idc
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JoelSim:Gusboll:
Well, all this has convinced me to try out some DACs but I would still be interested in hearing from other testers and the WHF team as to what they think - if they dare!.
They are conspicuous by their absence, and unsurprisingly so.
Joel why should the team have to participate in this post? It has been brilliant without them (no offence!). Anyway, they have answered this question before; they do test the products that go with PC based systems, DACs, servers, amps with DACs, Apple TV and Express etc and cables that are relevant to the use of such. They had a PC based set up at their last show. They also test CDPs and amps and TVs etc etc. What more do you want?
Well, all this has convinced me to try out some DACs but I would still be interested in hearing from other testers and the WHF team as to what they think - if they dare!.
They are conspicuous by their absence, and unsurprisingly so.
Joel why should the team have to participate in this post? It has been brilliant without them (no offence!). Anyway, they have answered this question before; they do test the products that go with PC based systems, DACs, servers, amps with DACs, Apple TV and Express etc and cables that are relevant to the use of such. They had a PC based set up at their last show. They also test CDPs and amps and TVs etc etc. What more do you want?
JoelSim - amps - I see no reason for amps changing all that much .. sure, more active speakers doing the rounds, and why not, as the designer of an active speaker knows exactly what he's working with, you often get more value for money. But, I don't see things changing that much.
I do think that the days of multi-thousand pound CD players are numbered. If you want something that looks great then there'll no doubt be a few out there as options, but, audiophiles will need to accept that they're not gaining audio quality by spending thousands on a player.
There's certainly change on the way. And it's going to be great fun seeing all these products appearing in mags in the future. Seeing things progress which is afterall, exactly what's happening.
I do think that the days of multi-thousand pound CD players are numbered. If you want something that looks great then there'll no doubt be a few out there as options, but, audiophiles will need to accept that they're not gaining audio quality by spending thousands on a player.
There's certainly change on the way. And it's going to be great fun seeing all these products appearing in mags in the future. Seeing things progress which is afterall, exactly what's happening.
idc
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JoelSim:
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
The next B&W speaker range, as predicted by JoelSim......................................
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
The next B&W speaker range, as predicted by JoelSim......................................
Joel,
You seem awfully worried that the computer-based movement will lead to the demise of quality.
If you had heard a high resolution audiophile download you would be feeling quite the opposite, I can assure you.
Linn have taken the reigns with this and are making £12k streaming devices, so it's not all about cheap MP3 players, you know.
I find it rather ironic that such a prejudice comes from an Arcam owner.
You seem awfully worried that the computer-based movement will lead to the demise of quality.
If you had heard a high resolution audiophile download you would be feeling quite the opposite, I can assure you.
Linn have taken the reigns with this and are making £12k streaming devices, so it's not all about cheap MP3 players, you know.
I find it rather ironic that such a prejudice comes from an Arcam owner.
idc:JoelSim:
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
The next B&W speaker range, as predicted by JoelSim......................................
ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
Does that have metallic domes?ÿ
I think you underestimate the threat; yes it has started with CDPs and tuners, but it's only a short matter of time before amps go the same way. The only thing that is safe is the speaker but that will become a vastly different kettle of fish in the future.
The next B&W speaker range, as predicted by JoelSim......................................
ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ
Does that have metallic domes?ÿ
Gusboll:Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?
Gusboll, you and I have quite similar Cyrus systems, I also have a second older Audiolab pre/power amp system consisting of a very decent CDP which cost £1,000 about 9/10 years ago. I have not used the CDP for a few months now since I got the DACMagic and connected it up to my Cyrus kit, I did try a mate's £900 CD6SE head to head against the DACMagic (with lossless ALAC from laptop via optical output of the Airport Express) and neither he nor I could really tell the difference. Hence I am not getting another CD player at around the £1,000 price bracket, if ever.... Instead I have bought a second Airport Express and DACMagic for the Audiolab system and an Airport Express for a mini system in the study. I now have all my music on the laptop and can play them via any of the three systems whether I find myself in the lounge, in the study or in the office. Hope this answers your question.
Gusboll, you and I have quite similar Cyrus systems, I also have a second older Audiolab pre/power amp system consisting of a very decent CDP which cost £1,000 about 9/10 years ago. I have not used the CDP for a few months now since I got the DACMagic and connected it up to my Cyrus kit, I did try a mate's £900 CD6SE head to head against the DACMagic (with lossless ALAC from laptop via optical output of the Airport Express) and neither he nor I could really tell the difference. Hence I am not getting another CD player at around the £1,000 price bracket, if ever.... Instead I have bought a second Airport Express and DACMagic for the Audiolab system and an Airport Express for a mini system in the study. I now have all my music on the laptop and can play them via any of the three systems whether I find myself in the lounge, in the study or in the office. Hope this answers your question.
idc
Well-known member
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Schbeemb:
idc - where on earth did you find that ?
<or did you draw it yourself?>
As I stated on another post comparing and contrasting PC based music with CD players, the advantage of a PC is that you can look for mufty whilst I never saw no mufty on my old obsolete CDP. I wish I had kept my Arcam now all CDPs are dying and going to hifi heaven to be met by Joel Sim at the big pearly gates.
idc - where on earth did you find that ?
<or did you draw it yourself?>
As I stated on another post comparing and contrasting PC based music with CD players, the advantage of a PC is that you can look for mufty whilst I never saw no mufty on my old obsolete CDP. I wish I had kept my Arcam now all CDPs are dying and going to hifi heaven to be met by Joel Sim at the big pearly gates.
JoelSim:
idc:The general opinion is that PC and DAC will perform to a £1000 CDP, and a Dell Inspiron and Beresford DAC can be had new for half that.
Utter rubbish. How can a computer using millions of sausage factory churned-out components, and having paid no attention to any of the details like eliminating interference inside, damping various important components etc compare directly to something that's made for the purpose.
JoelSim, have you spent any decent length of time listening to and comparing a system with lossless files played through a PC/Mac via a decent external DAC into a decent amp?? If so, then although I disagree with your "utter rubbish" comment, I will defend to the death your right to make their comment as it is subjective to you. But if you have not listened to and compared a decent PC/DAC based system, then I am afraid you comment is unworthy of serious consideration.
idc:The general opinion is that PC and DAC will perform to a £1000 CDP, and a Dell Inspiron and Beresford DAC can be had new for half that.
Utter rubbish. How can a computer using millions of sausage factory churned-out components, and having paid no attention to any of the details like eliminating interference inside, damping various important components etc compare directly to something that's made for the purpose.
JoelSim, have you spent any decent length of time listening to and comparing a system with lossless files played through a PC/Mac via a decent external DAC into a decent amp?? If so, then although I disagree with your "utter rubbish" comment, I will defend to the death your right to make their comment as it is subjective to you. But if you have not listened to and compared a decent PC/DAC based system, then I am afraid you comment is unworthy of serious consideration.
I believe JoelSim's comment was simply a lack of understanding. Afterall, the Naim HDX is built on a motherboard and has received rave reviews from all mags even though it is very expensive.
There are factors to consider in a PC and if you're using the analogue outputs then you could have interference issues, I guess ... but digital out, not a problem at all. Most of the music we listen to comes from a computer anyway.
JoelSim, I'm happy to demonstrate my setup to you if you've not heard a decent computer setup.
There are factors to consider in a PC and if you're using the analogue outputs then you could have interference issues, I guess ... but digital out, not a problem at all. Most of the music we listen to comes from a computer anyway.
JoelSim, I'm happy to demonstrate my setup to you if you've not heard a decent computer setup.
AKL:
Gusboll:Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?
Gusboll, you and I have quite similar Cyrus systems, I also have a second older Audiolab pre/power amp system consisting of a very decent CDP which cost £1,000 about 9/10 years ago. I have not used the CDP for a few months now since I got the DACMagic and connected it up to my Cyrus kit, I did try a mate's £900 CD6SE head to head against the DACMagic (with lossless ALAC from laptop via optical output of the Airport Express) and neither he nor I could really tell the difference. Hence I am not getting another CD player at around the £1,000 price bracket, if ever.... Instead I have bought a second Airport Express and DACMagic for the Audiolab system and an Airport Express for a mini system in the study. I now have all my music on the laptop and can play them via any of the three systems whether I find myself in the lounge, in the study or in the office. Hope this answers your question.
Very useful AKL, thanks.
Gusboll:Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?
Gusboll, you and I have quite similar Cyrus systems, I also have a second older Audiolab pre/power amp system consisting of a very decent CDP which cost £1,000 about 9/10 years ago. I have not used the CDP for a few months now since I got the DACMagic and connected it up to my Cyrus kit, I did try a mate's £900 CD6SE head to head against the DACMagic (with lossless ALAC from laptop via optical output of the Airport Express) and neither he nor I could really tell the difference. Hence I am not getting another CD player at around the £1,000 price bracket, if ever.... Instead I have bought a second Airport Express and DACMagic for the Audiolab system and an Airport Express for a mini system in the study. I now have all my music on the laptop and can play them via any of the three systems whether I find myself in the lounge, in the study or in the office. Hope this answers your question.
Very useful AKL, thanks.
Thought id just add what ive found as ive spent a fair bit of time demoing different equipment recently. I did a lot of comparison with various people between my cd8x and lossless files through different dacs, using a dacmagic we couldn't tell any difference i decided to keep the cyrus but unfortunately it hasnt been used since and ive just sold it. I also demoed a chord dac 64 which i loved sounded incredible but couldn't bring myself to spend that much at the minute but may well change my mind it was that good! It did take a lot of time ripping my cd collection but i did it bit by bit when i was on the computer anyway and i always knew i had my cyrus there if i really wanted to listen to anything else. The biggest change for me is that i listen to more music than ever ill sit down at night pick a few songs my gf picks a few and its convenient. I wouldn't have used lossless files as my sole source if it wasn't a match for my cyrus but its turned out that i prefer the sound with the dac so couldn't be happier with it! I went in to it expecting to upgrade my cd player and was very surprised what i ended up with.
I've not gone through all10(!) pages of responses but I thought I'd chime in as well.
I'm using a Cambridge Audio 840C soley as a DAC connected to a Squeezebox using a Clearer Audio Silverline Coax cable. I rip CDs using EAC and save them in FLAC format. Overall I am very content with the result. However, I still marginally prefer the sound when using the 840C as a CD player than as a DAC. I'm pretty finicky about the ripping process so error correction is on high, the CD itself is clean etc etc.
Even though we know 'bits are bits' the CD playback does sound a tad better to my ears but I'll admit its difficult to quantify.
If I was after pure audio quality I'd go for the CD route, but getting 90% of the sound with so much convenience is simply a no-brainer for me. Instant random and/or sequential access to 400+ CDs, difficult to value, but surely worth more than the 10% lost?
I'm using a Cambridge Audio 840C soley as a DAC connected to a Squeezebox using a Clearer Audio Silverline Coax cable. I rip CDs using EAC and save them in FLAC format. Overall I am very content with the result. However, I still marginally prefer the sound when using the 840C as a CD player than as a DAC. I'm pretty finicky about the ripping process so error correction is on high, the CD itself is clean etc etc.
Even though we know 'bits are bits' the CD playback does sound a tad better to my ears but I'll admit its difficult to quantify.
If I was after pure audio quality I'd go for the CD route, but getting 90% of the sound with so much convenience is simply a no-brainer for me. Instant random and/or sequential access to 400+ CDs, difficult to value, but surely worth more than the 10% lost?
Just got in from work and so make no apologies for resurrecting this lengthy thread because there have been some great responses over the last couple of pages and some compelling arguments coming down on the computer/dac format - I think the score is a definite 6 to a very strong 1 with a few waverers!
Whatever everyone's opinion, as ever it's great to see the passion that drives this magical phenomenon we know as music. Now where did I put that Pye music centre? - oh yes, its propping up the akai deck that me CD8x is sat on.
Whatever everyone's opinion, as ever it's great to see the passion that drives this magical phenomenon we know as music. Now where did I put that Pye music centre? - oh yes, its propping up the akai deck that me CD8x is sat on.
You my arument isnt whats best! its very possible pc music may have bettering of the venerable CDP, But I like the ritual of getting out a much loved CD sticking it my player pressing play and sitting back n relaxing reading the sleave notes its so simple 
I have started ripping flacs to my pc and can stream to via my ps3 but it was a pain to get it working smoothly its going to take an age to rip my 400+ cds and i have to put up a noisy box under my tv! Also my cd doesnt very need the bios updating and drivers to be replaced and in general any arseing about, put in disk press play
I have started ripping flacs to my pc and can stream to via my ps3 but it was a pain to get it working smoothly its going to take an age to rip my 400+ cds and i have to put up a noisy box under my tv! Also my cd doesnt very need the bios updating and drivers to be replaced and in general any arseing about, put in disk press playMy above post is only aimed at a couple of posters that seem well just a wee bit arrogant and almost mocking in their assertions that Computer based music is best! Whats best is what is most convenient and pleaseing to the user....End off
Lets face it both formats can sound brilliant
Lets face it both formats can sound brilliant
garethwd:My above post is only aimed at a couple of posters that seem well just a wee bit arrogant and almost mocking in their assertions that Computer based music is best! Whats best is what is most convenient and pleaseing to the user....End off Lets face it both formats can sound brilliant
Garethwd - made in europe and he fools no one! End of. Hats off sir.
Garethwd - made in europe and he fools no one! End of. Hats off sir.
Most music is made on a Pc or Mac (usually with external AD DA converters but a lot is done internally.) So its fine to create the music with pc/mac but cant be reproduced
****** - Hmm - 90% of the audio quality.. It cannot be only 90%. It must be at minimum equal, at best better. In your example perhaps that 90% may be true; do you have your PC setup to stream bit perfect?
Garethwd - I'm guilty as charged and your point "let's face it both formats can sound brilliant" sums it up nicely.
Garethwd - I'm guilty as charged and your point "let's face it both formats can sound brilliant" sums it up nicely.
Schbeemb, as much as I wanted for the wireless streaming solution to be as good as CD playback, it's not :-(
The Cambridge 840C CD player is amongst a selected group of CD players that accepts digital inputs which are then processed by the DAC inside the CD player.
I'm using a PC/Squeezebox to stream the flac files from a PC and as it's effectively just data that is being sent across the 'server' to the 'client' so it's bit accurate. Any transmission errors would be detected and corrected transparently. Of course the process of ripping a CD isn't necessarily perfect, but once the files are on the PC/NAS they are transmitted bit-perfectly.
The Cambridge 840C CD player is amongst a selected group of CD players that accepts digital inputs which are then processed by the DAC inside the CD player.
I'm using a PC/Squeezebox to stream the flac files from a PC and as it's effectively just data that is being sent across the 'server' to the 'client' so it's bit accurate. Any transmission errors would be detected and corrected transparently. Of course the process of ripping a CD isn't necessarily perfect, but once the files are on the PC/NAS they are transmitted bit-perfectly.
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