CD player v computer-based music

[Gusboll]

Gusboll:Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?

At the risk of gate-crashing this hugely entertaining philosophical debate about whether or not Tesco sell a better apple than the local hi-fi engineer's active speaker, does anyone have some thoughts on the above?

 

[Tear Drop]

tino001:Here's one of so many quotes you can google relating to cables etc - "Modern measuring equipment measures considerably more that we can possible hear. Decibels are difficult to understand but I'll try. 10 db is 10 times, but 20 dB is 100 times and so on and we can measure down almost to the thermal noise in copper wire which is -140 dB. The ambient noise in our living rooms is probably 55-60 dB! Therefore the idea that someone may be able to hear something that can't be measured is idiotic."................................

I really do not want to get into a discussion about either PC audio or cables, but when are people going to understand this basic concept? - Machines do NOT listen to music! So therefore what does it matter what any 'measuring equipment' is capable of when it comes to music reproduction?

 

[Anonymous]

Gusboll:
Gusboll:Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?

At the risk of gate-crashing this hugely entertaining philosophical debate about whether or not Tesco sell a better apple than the local hi-fi engineer's active speaker, does anyone have some thoughts on the above?

I won't be returning to a CD player. I don't like shopping anyway. Or apples.

 

[Alec]

I'm going to stop following the food analogy.

However, i find it hard to see why you equate one box systems with not caring about sound. There are one or two hifi manufacturers i know for sure - and they have said so online - would disagree. Indeed, they would accuse people who want us to use multiple boxes of ripping us off and inducing needless upgrade-itis.

I dont necassarily agree, im jus' sayin'.

 

[Alec]

Tear Drop:tino001:Here's one of so many quotes you can google relating to cables etc - "Modern measuring equipment measures considerably more that we can possible hear. Decibels are difficult to understand but I'll try. 10 db is 10 times, but 20 dB is 100 times and so on and we can measure down almost to the thermal noise in copper wire which is -140 dB. The ambient noise in our living rooms is probably 55-60 dB! Therefore the idea that someone may be able to hear something that can't be measured is idiotic."................................ I really do not want to get into a discussion about either PC audio or cables, but when are people going to understand this basic concept? - Machines do NOT listen to music! So therefore what does it matter what any 'measuring equipment' is capable of when it comes to music reproduction?

It doesnt matter a jot, sir!

Indeed, measurements can be used by folk untroubled by scruples, to get us to buy "better" equipment, when we wouldnt hear a difference.

I agree with what someone said earlier about measurements, but it can be looked at from different angles - some as revealing as the next.

 

[idc]

JoelSim:

And relating it back to sound quality, the convergence of technology will commoditise hifi even further as separate components go out of production, the larger brands then build their one-box music systems (in effect a speaker which you control from your mobile phone or suchlike) and then those who enjoy this area, like myself, lose out. And where we once had hundreds of small businesses involved in the production of hifi, we end up with a few larger companies (who don't care anywhere near as much about sound quality in the scheme of things) controlling things.

Sorry, too many blind leaps and assumptions to make a convincing argument. For example you suggest small means good quality and large means poor quality, which is not an absolute. If what you are saying is going to be true then your girlfriend would be working for Tescos and not a speciality company, or are you arguing that is inevitable as well?

 

[Anonymous]

Ive no doubt that lossless files can sound pretty darn good but if as some people are suggesting cd's wiil become a thing of the past it will be a sad day indeed! I want somthing real for my hard earned! I personally enjoy browsing through a record shop and coming home with a shiny new disk to stuff into CDP.. a much more enjoyable way of spending moneys imo

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know if Joel is referring to AVI (?) DAC/Active commodity, but they certainly aren't the Tesco of the HiFi world!

They are tiny compared to the likes of Cyrus, Naim, Arcam, Monitor Audio and B&W.

From their website it looks to be run by just two older gentlemen and sell quite expensive products. The Lab Amps started at around £1,500, and I remember lusting after the £5,000 Brios many years ago.

The Tesco would probably Sony etc and the EDITED BY MODS for racist language with cinema in a box system.

Large companies are a mixed-blessing. They have R&D and economies of scale that cottage manufactures could only dream of, but I doubt they share the same low-level passion.

 

[Anonymous]

I think Joel is saying with a one box set up you 'pick it off the shelf' meaning many people will have exactly the same sounding stereo system.

 

[Anonymous]

Octopo:I think Joel is saying with a one box set up you 'pick it off the shelf' meaning many people will have exactly the same sounding stereo system.

Alternatively one could listen to several "one box" solutions and see which they prefer.

For example I'm sure the Arcam Solo and Naim Uniti products are relatively good value because:

• The engineer knows all variables - i.e. the source/amp connections
• Only one metal case saves money, shipping, etc.

 

[Anonymous]

As long as there are people buying a product and a manufacturer can produce it while making a profit I think this product will continue to exist. I mean there is even a market for 5000 pound per metre cables Why would anyone believe that cd players will stop getting manufactured anytime soon is something i don't understand. In the end of the day using a pc as an audio source isn't the easiest thing in the world. Tell 50 or 60 year olds to rip their music and stream it wirelessly and how do you think they will respond ? Just a few thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

If anyone has a reasonable amplifier and a Laptop he can pay £50 for an M-Audio Transit and turn it into a very good CD player indeed. CD sales are down massively and continue falling as download sales rise inexorably and are well into the billions. CD mechs are no longer made, instead manufacturers use DVD mechs, but they are all cheap and less reliable and less pleasant to use than a decent computer based media player.

Apple Computers sound like a pretty good CD player out of the box, most of the records you buy and many of the Movies you watch are made on them using Apple Software. Soon they may launch a TV set that combines the functions of their present Apple TV with a full on flat screen job.

The future lies in high quality media systems that comprise of a media computer, a TV and sound equipment. Jokes about Active speakers are inappropriate, not only because they are technically superior to separates, but also because they take up less space and cost far less. Why spend more for something that cannot be as good, for that is what it amounts to. They've been the norm in Recording Studios for twenty years or so and Pro audio electronics, coincidentally, are more advanced and less expensive than hi fi.

The future is clear to all but dyed in the wool audiophiles and they may plough their own furrow for years to come. Whether they will be listening to a better sound as a result is open to debate IMO.

We haven't made a CD player since January 2007 and I stopped using one before then as people are all over the world. We're talking to high end dealers who wouldn't even consider our speakers a couple of years ago, but now are taking pallet loads. Things are changing fast and although some of you may not think it a good thing, I promise you that it is and that it's more interesting and exciting than hi fi on its own ever was.

Ash

PS. I'm nearly 63 and don't have a problem, but more to the point my uncle has and uses an iPod, a digital camera and he's just booked his holiday this year online has he has for quite a few years now. He's nearly 97. I started using a computer in 1987 and my wife shortly after for her firm. She's a lawyer. There probably are older people not using computers but they are not the norm.

 

[Anonymous]

Don't agree with Joel over some points, but he's right about supermarkets, with the honourable exception of Waitrose which shares its profits with its staff.

Supermarkets kill the high streets, force us into cars to drive to them, put hundreds out of work, foist their "standards" on suppliers always to the detriment of quality. Give me my local epicier any day. If you don't believe, take a trip to Paris and wander down rue lepic or rue d'abbesses in Montmartre. Now that's choice, not pretty packaging on harshly-lit supermarket shelves.

 

[up the music]

I can see the commodotisation and merging of media centres/entertainment PC/AV streamers whatever the PC in a box will morph into. Given bit perfect HD outputs and the sort of graphics processing we'll have in a few years and solid state hard drives, the choice will largely be down to which are aesthetically pleasing and fit your budget.

As internet bandwidth increases so will the availability of better quality downloads. If there is still debate now over whether FLAC or CD sounds better, there won't be in a few years when 24/192 files are the standard format for PC playback.

There does remain the ephemeral nature of files on a hard drive. Even backed up ones. They have no physicality. This does affect perceived vfm.

I can see why active speakers may take a larger market share in a world where 5, 6 and 7 channel systems are increasingly common. WAF dictates that less unobtrusive boxes and cables are desirable. With newer class D amps getting better I can see huge attraction in active speakers so long as they can take a tumble off the stand.

For the hifi tweaker in the people on this forum we'll be upset that we can't mix and match amp/cable/speaker combinations like in the old days. Maybe we'll have to content ourselves with op amp rolling and speaker positioning.

I'm already impatient at the lack of decent affordable DACs with enough inputs, volume control and an analogue line in or two for when I'm feeling nostalgic and want to play back via legacy devices such as VCR or tape.

 

[Gusboll]

Well this has been an absorbing thread; I now know all I need to know about Supermarkets, Sociology, Borough Market (very nice by the way), Active Speakers, Philosophy, Apples, Mozzarella, etc etc. However I'm still none the wiser about whether or not my set-up/similar set-ups would be worth upgrading via the pc/dac route in terms of sound quality as per the orginal post!

 

[Anonymous]

Gusboll:
Well this has been an absorbing thread; I now know all I need to know about Supermarkets, Sociology, Borough Market (very nice by the way), Active Speakers, Philosophy, Apples, Mozzarella, etc etc. However I'm still none the wiser about whether or not my set-up/similar set-ups would be worth upgrading via the pc/dac route in terms of sound quality as per the orginal post!

I doubt a PC DAC would sound better than your Cyrus CD player, but an Apple Computer with the Cyrus DAC will be far more versatile and give access to much more of interest.

Future downloads are likely to be 24/96 VBR AAC or that is what is proposed.

Ash

PS. If you need an optical output to go to your Cyrus DAC then buy an M-Audio Transit because it will install drivers than allow the full 24 Bit from the USB socket. Normal USB to optical devices only provide 16 Bit. Do also listen the analogue output of the Transit because it is scarily good.

 

[John Duncan]

What a hoot this one is. Did i mention I like PC audio because it sounds better than CD audio on an apples-for-apples basis (notwithstanding the fact that the WHF?S&V CD-based reference system sounds better than my PC-based system)?

Anyway, just off to Tescos.

 

[Anonymous]

Joel I agree with you on many of the things you mentioned except this idea that it all sounds the same, we are left with lower quality components etc, I think it's fair to say that those who buy separates are in the distinct minority and so therefore even if the future does unfold in the way you describe, to grab our niche market, the quality of the sound will still need to be paramount.

 

[chebby]

Gusboll, do you realise there is a new Cyrus 8 XP d amplifier coming out very soon with built in DAC?,,,,,

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/cms_downloads/CyrusProductBrochure2009.pdf

It has Coax, USB and Optical connections.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:
Gusboll, do you realise there is a new Cyrus 8 XP d amplifier coming out very soon with built in DAC?,,,,,

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/cms_downloads/CyrusProductBrochure2009.pdf

It has Coax, USB and Optical connections.

Chebby,

The Cyrus amp is a good option but I'm not sure where it leaves their CD players. I expect the internal DAC is limited as to not step on the toes of the CDPs sonically.

Hopefully most audio companies to be featuring digital inputs by the time their next product ranges are out.

Myryad have a nice new Arcam Solo thing out now with two digital inputs.

 

[Messiah]

Gusboll:
Lots of discussions been going on re the pros and cons of both formats, especially when it comes to convenience, storage etc but what I still don't understand is the whole sound quality issue.

Lots of posts saying that pc based stuff with an appropriate DAC is just as good as a CDP, but are we talking about all CDPs seeing as there are units out there for thousands of quid?

G

Hi Gus,

I would say that a PC connected to a DAC at any price point could compete with a CD player. I mean if you had a £1000 CD player you could (as has been mentioned) get a very similar sound with a PC and DAC for a lot less money. Just like if you had a £10k player you could buy a better DAC and get a very similar sound although the costs involved may also be similar.

At the Bristol Show I heard the Meridian DSP8000's (£45,000) connected up to the Soloos music server and they sounded stunning! Nothing bettered this sound in any other room. Meridian also used their reference CD player and it sounded no better than the sound coming from the music server. A lot of this is obvioulsy down to the quality of the speakers but it did not matter what the source was.

So I would conclude (so much so that I have sold my CD player (Cyrus CD6s)) that PC based music can certainly perform up there with the best CD player.

With this in mind you can then consider the remaining factors of the sheer flexibility of a PC based system.

I hope this has helped to actually answer your question.

 

[Messiah]

Eddie Pound:chebby:
Gusboll, do you realise there is a new Cyrus 8 XP d amplifier coming out very soon with built in DAC?,,,,,

http://www.cyrusaudio.com/cms_downloads/CyrusProductBrochure2009.pdf

It has Coax, USB and Optical connections.

Chebby,

The Cyrus amp is a good option but I'm not sure where it leaves their CD players. I expect the internal DAC is limited as to not step on the toes of the CDPs sonically.

Hopefully most audio companies to be featuring digital inputs by the time their next product ranges are out.

Myryad have a nice new Arcam Solo thing out now with two digital inputs.

Having spoken to a Cyrus rep about the amp he said the DAC was comparable to that in the CD6SE so I guess it is certainly not treading on the toes of the CD8SE. Other quotes from the MD of Cyrus have pointed to the new amps being a perfect partner for the CDXTSE.

 

[Anonymous]

I hate to use price as an indicator of performance so take this with a pinch of salt...

As a DAC is half of a CD player, you can expect a DAC to perform as well as a CD player around twice as much (when used with lossless files).

For instance, the DAC Magic (£250) is half of a 740C (£500), and a Cyrus DACX (£1000) is half of a DACX/XTSE CD player (£2,000).

Therefore, if you are happy to use a computer as a source, and you probably already own a laptop, you can either get better sound for your money, or the same sound for less money.

What's more, when it comes to DACs we are over-lapping with the Pro Audio field, which operates for stricter clientle and at lower margin.

If you read over on the Naim forum you'll find members replacing CDS3 and almost CD555 with a Lavry DAC that costs... £700.

 

[idc]

Eddie Pound:

I hate to use price as an indicator of performance so take this with a pinch of salt...

As a DAC is half of a CD player, you can expect a DAC to perform as well as a CD player around twice as much (when used with lossless files).

I think you make a very good point Eddie. So, can a PC be used as the other half of the CDP and act as a transport playing a CD realtime straight into a DAC, or do you have to import the CD first to create a lossless (or whatever format) file?

 

[Gusboll]

Some useful posts there guys, thanks. And mozzarella for thought!