CD v Analogue

[CJSF]

Or perhaps the heading should be Digital v Analogue? The amount of listening I have don over the past 2 weeks is phenominal, changed rooms around majouring on raising the quality of digital? I was not sure what I was doing in the first instance but all soon became obvious in which direction I was going. It was sugested early on to look at room conditioning . . . yeh???

First mistake, ignore conditioning at your peril. I have not done any more than strategicaly pin some folded blankets on the wall. This change in direction has been a reverlation and I'm only halfway there.

The introduction of an indipendant DAC to the CD created an analitical digital sound, so much detail but very digital. The room damping has tamed the analitical digital 'twang' to a point where I can compare it to analogue. Thats going to raise a few eyebrows, but I stick to my guns, dont knock it till you have tried it.

In the past couple of days I have setup direct comparisons switching between the same tracks, being carfull to set the volume as close as I could, fairly easy on my system as I have volume on the phono stage as well as the line amp.

Yes, vinyl may still have it but only by a short head, and then we are probably only talking preferance not better? Maybe a better TT/chartridge may do better . . . my TT/McC are no slouch in the performance stakes!

My main thinking is to be able to by CD's by post without worrying about the condition, its is a much more durable medium. We cant go to the town or boot sales, due to Hazels disabuility and my increasing lack of mobility and inability to push the wheelchair on anything but good pavement. CD's are cheap, and if its a duffer recording, not to much is lost.

I should have spoted how digital can be tamed with a DAC a long time ago, I have always reported my streamed computer sourced music always sounded good compared to CD . . . I have had a dedicated HRT DAC in line for a longtime. The simple room conditioning has not had such a notisable affect on Spotify and Radio, although it has changed for the good.

'Change' has been the factor throughout the past couple of weeks, I'm not claiming better, however, digital is now very listenable comparing favourably with analogue.

Thats my view, the 'CD v Analogue' debate will contiue, do the right things and it is not a major issue in my humble opinion . . . *drinks*

CJSF

 

[Macspur]

You're right CJ, the debate will continue and the truth is, "one man's meat" and all that jazz. There's no doubt there's something romantic about vynal and a quality record deck, but no one can question the versatility and durability of the compact disc.

I was proud to own a Linn Access deck in the 90's and really loved it, but sadly the quality of vynal became so poor, after much deliberation, I gave in and sold it and bought a CDP.... the format of which is an absolute God send for someone who can't see.

Keep it up CJ, nirvana is just around the corner.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[Glacialpath]

Hi CJSF how are you?

I like hearing about people playing with their systems and getting more out of them so it's good to hear that some minimal changes have given you improvement.

I haven't treated my room at all, mostly because I think all I have in it deal with most unwanted charateristics.

I have to say your title could almost be Analogue v Analogue as you know though the source is digital what you hear is analogue as there is alway a DAC involved. Especially if you are putting a seperate DAC it should be doing a more efficiant job than the one earlier in the chain that of course is bypassed but I'm being padantic lol.

What it should do is give you an indication of how well your DAC is doing in getting the digital signal back to it's original analogue state unless of course the music you listen to is created in a purely digital domain.

I'd love to be able to listen to a Vinyl version of some of the CDs I have not just to hear the difference but ho hear how well my DAC is woking.

 

[MajorFubar]

None of this is news to you right? Cliff you were one of the very first people to recognise the importance of speaker stands when everyone around you in the industry told you you were an idiot. You're surely not surprised that acoustic treatments make such a huge difference? Have a look on YouTube at how people build home recording studios with bass-traps and acoustic panels, this will give you an idea of what's achievable, though in a living room environment where aesthetics are just as important, compromises will probably have to be made.

 

[CJSF]

Or perhaps the heading should be Digital v Analogue? The amount of listening I have don over the past 2 weeks is phenominal, changed rooms around majouring on raising the quality of digital? I was not sure what I was doing in the first instance but all soon became obvious in which direction I was going. It was sugested early on to look at room conditioning . . . yeh???

....

First mistake, ignore conditioning at your peril. I have not done any more than strategicaly pin some folded blankets on the wall. This change in direction has been a reverlation and I'm only halfway there.

'Change' has been the factor throughout the past couple of weeks, I'm not claiming better, however, digital is now very listenable comparing favourably with analogue.

Thats my view, the 'CD v Analogue' debate will contiue, do the right things and it is not a major issue in my humble opinion . . . *drinks*

CJSF

I'm very interested in room acoustics too, please keep us updated on your findings, but I think for the majority of people on this forum, especially those living in smaller flats may have a problem altering and changing room acoustics.

I've seem some very simple elegant setups on another forum where people showed "their small room music setup', speakers away from walls on an equilateral triangle, TT (if there is one) isolated from speakers, no interruption of sound to the listener and symmetrical room positioning and arrangement......

(for me, I have my setup on 1 side of a long rectangle room, so left side is ok if I draw the curtains, but right side is open to the rest of the room, imbalanced?... probably but I cant think of what else to do.)

I was full digital before, CD and Sonos streaming but I decided to try turntable and I really enjoy it now. I find it.....nicer and warmer but if I want convenience, I use sonos. The guys and girls on this forum have been great offering advise and their opinions. (maybe I'm still in the 'honeymoon' phase of vinyl)

main thing is, enjoy the music, the upgrades, the changes and the forums where everyone is on the same music boat.

First, you are describing my situation, small, with domestic constraints, speakers away from the walls (53cm from front baffle to wall, speaker is 23cm deep, on stands) room conditioning cant have any affect on such a small space? How wrong can one be, big changes can be made, the issue is 'domestic constraints'. I'm lucky, Hazel is into her music as much as me. So I simply hung a couple of rugs from the walls at the 'reflective points' which happend to be conveniently placed. I heard obvious changes for the good, so, folded the blankets in 4, making them about 120x90, used 6ft canes to pin them to the wall, wigwam fashion. The change to 'easy listening' was amazing, thats easy as in 'vinyl/TT presentation', gone was the digital edge, the base became full, round and detailed, mids were amazingly informative and the top end sweet and extended. I have a couple of recordings that are very pure and demanding of the top end of my system, they have never sounded better.

So, in my limited experiance, size seems not to matter where room conditioning is concerened?

I have read it is an expensive job, not for me, I need to treat two walls. I can make my own for an outlay of around £75, or I can go to the profesionals. GIK Accoustics do a standard 120x60 x 3 pannels for around double that, colours and sizes can be mix and match from a basic standard size offereing. Its not quite as simple as it sounds, corner issues have been sorted with a tall'ish CD rack in one corner and one of the three doors used as a deflector in the other corner Which means I am probably not getting the perfect sound. That may be so but compared with what we started with, a small cost of something in the regon of £150, compared with the money people fritter on cables, it is a bargin.

Needs a mind set like mine *dash1* to start the process of, but its fun once the simplicity of it all kicks in and you are hearing stuff you never new existed on you recordings . . . *preved*

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Hi MajorFubar . . . You are right about my previous life mate, I treated my original studio, corner damping, end well panell . . . Its embaresing that I did not equat this in my current hifi life. Remember, I have had an almost 20 year gap where nothing realy made any sence, I am now re-learning all that I new in those days. It has to be said its getting a lot easier, rather than learning now its more a matter of recall, helped very much by the patience of individuals like your self. The problem now is one of 'old ideas' need modifying? . . . as I'm finding with my digital listening*smile*

The thing I'm enjoying at this moment is the simple ways of proving a point to myself, blankets pined to the wall with bamboo canes, it cost me nothing to prove a big point . . . and the listenig pleasure I have derived from itis a bonus.

CJSF

 

[boshk]

Or perhaps the heading should be Digital v Analogue? The amount of listening I have don over the past 2 weeks is phenominal, changed rooms around majouring on raising the quality of digital? I was not sure what I was doing in the first instance but all soon became obvious in which direction I was going. It was sugested early on to look at room conditioning . . . yeh???

....

First mistake, ignore conditioning at your peril. I have not done any more than strategicaly pin some folded blankets on the wall. This change in direction has been a reverlation and I'm only halfway there.

'Change' has been the factor throughout the past couple of weeks, I'm not claiming better, however, digital is now very listenable comparing favourably with analogue.

Thats my view, the 'CD v Analogue' debate will contiue, do the right things and it is not a major issue in my humble opinion . . . *drinks*

CJSF

I'm very interested in room acoustics too, please keep us updated on your findings, but I think for the majority of people on this forum, especially those living in smaller flats may have a problem altering and changing room acoustics.

I've seen some very simple elegant setups on another forum where people showed "their small room music setup', speakers away from walls on an equilateral triangle, TT (if there is one) isolated from speakers, no interruption of sound to the listener and symmetrical room positioning and arrangement...... (for me, I have my setup on 1 side of a long rectangle room, so left side is ok if I draw the curtains, but right side is open to the rest of the room, imbalanced?... probably but I cant think of what else to do.)

I was full digital before, CD and Sonos streaming but I decided to try turntable and I really enjoy it now. I find it.....nicer and warmer but if I want convenience, I use sonos.

The guys and girls on this forum have been great offering advise and their opinions. (maybe I'm still in the 'honeymoon' phase of vinyl) main thing is, enjoy the music, the upgrades, the changes and the forums where everyone is on the same music boat.

 

[matthewpiano]

CJSF

Interesting to hear about your experiments and the associate improvements.

If you are worrying about limited mobility and being able to source recordings in future, would it not make sense to take downloads more seriously? I'm a huge fan of physical media and the whole business of having something to look at and handle, but with all the improvements in technology and the high level of sound quality available from the better downloads as well as from services like Qobuz Hi-Fi, I thinkg there is something to consider for the future. I know I'm having to seriously consider my options with regards future purchases as I just don't have endless space to keep adding to the CD and vinyl collections.

 

[CJSF]

CJSF

Interesting to hear about your experiments and the associate improvements.

If you are worrying about limited mobility and being able to source recordings in future, would it not make sense to take downloads more seriously? I'm a huge fan of physical media and the whole business of having something to look at and handle, but with all the improvements in technology and the high level of sound quality available from the better downloads as well as from services like Qobuz Hi-Fi, I thinkg there is something to consider for the future. I know I'm having to seriously consider my options with regards future purchases as I just don't have endless space to keep adding to the CD and vinyl collections.

You are right Matthew, whilst all this has been going on I have been making noises to friends and associate regarding, ipods, androids, tablets and such like, dont understand a word of it so far but early days. I supose its the next step for me, dip a toe in see what the water is like.

But first, get the room conditioning to my liking, than I have somthing that is fixed that I can compare to. In the end the whole idea will be to get the best from all mediums chosen to my satisfaction and my advantage. I will still have my first love in vinyl, but in the real world, 'ideology' is not always practical? There is still the new car, delivery is expected in September, no CDP, all downloads and memory sticks . . . getting to understand that will be a spin off of what is hapening at the moment . . . I think???*unknw*

CJSF

 

[stevebrock]

Cliff

Have you tried the Apollo R without the DAC and then with the DAC?

Be interested in your observations.

Do you think the DAC improves the Apollo R?

 

[CJSF]

Cliff

Have you tried the Apollo R without the DAC and then with the DAC?

Be interested in your observations.

Do you think the DAC improves the Apollo R?

Hi Steve, yes I have, breifley . . . ????????????????????????? My initial reaction, better than the 'wide Apollo R', more richness, depth and authority. As I have said, the new 'R' borders on the analitical with the DAC, width but lacking depth. However, put the room treatment up and all that 'digital twang/edge' disapears but the detail remains, high quality analogue? There is a more natural, relaxed open image with the DAC and room treatment, . . . . take the treatment away and it gets a bit in your face, another way of describing digital twang/edge?

I'm curently listening to Spotify with just the critical wall treated, cant be botherd to go up stairs for the other blanket, (it sounds priety-dam-good) also listened to Hans Theessink CD 'Bridges' this morning with just the one wall treatment . . . need to try both walls as a comparison. Wont happen this weekend, going to RAF Barkstone Heath, NR Gratham all day tomorrow. Model airplane National Championships all weekend.

CJSF

 

[luckylion100]

two very different animals. Digital vs Analogue is akin to saying Hogarth vs Fish. I really enjoy dfferent aspects of both, depending on mood, energy levels, the need for convenience or tactile interaction. I love both flavours of my system. And for the record, it's Fish 100%!

 

[stevebrock]

two very different animals. Digital vs Analogue is akin to saying Hogarth vs Fish. I really enjoy dfferent aspects of both, depending on mood, energy levels, the need for convenience or tactile interaction. I love both flavours of my system. And for the record, it's Fish 100%!

Nice deck and welcome to the best section of this site!

Often my Rega DAC gets used and I do enjoy the convenience of browsing through stuff on my iphone when Im doing stuff round the house.

Nothing beats going through the ritual of playing vinyl!

 

[MajorFubar]

Remember, I have had an almost 20 year gap where nothing realy made any sence, I am now re-learning all that I new in those days.

I hadn't really thought about that Cliff, in which case all is forgiven lol. You were the genius that started all this kind of stuff off. Just seemed a bit odd for you of all people to be having such a late revelation.

 

[CJSF]

Remember, I have had an almost 20 year gap where nothing realy made any sence, I am now re-learning all that I new in those days.

I hadn't really thought about that Cliff, in which case all is forgiven lol. You were the genius that started all this kind of stuff off. Just seemed a bit odd for you of all people to be having such a late revelation.

Wow MF . . . 'genius' thats a bit strong, it seemed so simple(?) back in 1976, the year of my first experiments . . . but thanks for the compliment. Family trait to stick to ones guns when one believes in something.*blush*

Its rather nice, 'revelation' that is. I've finished the TT now, know where to go short of spending a lot of money on the next run of the TT ladder and even then, there will be little room for worth while upgrades. This way, I have the satisfaction of enjoying the work I have done on my analogue side, in all its aspects, including knowing why and how it works the way it does? I also know where I could go if I had the money . . . *biggrin*

Digital is a new avenue for me to work on, to start with, how it works, 'which buttons to press'.*pardon* Then getting it to sound the way I want it to . . . thats musicaly enjoyable, the pointers are out, so I'm on the way . . . Never give up my black stuff, but its nice to add a bit of silver and a few cable and airbourn 1 & 0 . . . ?

. . . but, that big 'but' . . . it must be done my way so that I understand it . . . *drinks*

CJSF

 

[boshk]

Remember, I have had an almost 20 year gap where nothing realy made any sence, I am now re-learning all that I new in those days.

I hadn't really thought about that Cliff, in which case all is forgiven lol. You were the genius that started all this kind of stuff off. Just seemed a bit odd for you of all people to be having such a late revelation.

Its rather nice, 'revelation' that is. I've finished the TT now, know where to go short of spending a lot of money on the next run of the TT ladder and even then, there will be little room for worth while upgrades. This way, I have the satisfaction of enjoying the work I have done on my analogue side, in all its aspects, including knowing why and how it works the way it does? I also know where I could go if I had the money . . . *biggrin*

CJSF

You are completely satisfied with your TT setup now? May I know what you did to the TT and the setup?

 

[stevebrock]

Boshk,

Think Cliff has a modded P5, Iso Sub, Audio Mods arm with Sumiko cart - have it on good authority it sings like a canary!

 

[CJSF]

I'm curently listening to Spotify with just the critical wall treated, cant be botherd to go up stairs for the other blanket, (it sounds priety-dam-good) also listened to Hans Theessink CD 'Bridges' this morning with just the one wall treatment . . . need to try both walls as a comparison. Wont happen this weekend, going to RAF Barkstone Heath, NR Gratham all day tomorrow. Model airplane National Championships all weekend.

CJSF

Monday feeling totaly ' . . . kared' after my efforts at RAF Barkston Heath yesterday. Sitting listening to the Beach Boys 'Pet sounds' . . . First off with only one wall treatment up, sounded good, stacks of detail, great arangements and enginering . . .

Resting today to recover from yesterday, so I went and got the second blanket, highly technical this room treatment of mine.

What a transformation, it was like a whole new track had been added, the digital tinkle had been transformed into a rich musical layer, as I have said in this thread previously, how wrong can one be, deceived even? Strange how this conditioning transforms with out detracting, nothing night and day, just gently presents a sound that is 'right', gooes bumps right on ocasions! Goose bumps . . . yep, Beach Boys track 'Thats not me' is playing, the hairs on my arms and kneck tingled!

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Boshk,

Think Cliff has a modded P5, Iso Sub, Audio Mods arm with Sumiko cart - have it on good authority it sings like a canary!

Steve has it right, thats the basic modes, but one has added lots of little personal touches that offer very small changes, but they 'amout to the icing on the cake as a whole' . . . Thats where 'my way' differes from most modded examples, the 'attention to detail', very important IMHO.

CJSF

 

[nopiano]

Wanted to echo Matthew's suggestion of Qobuz, though I see you use Spotify CJ, so much the same idea.

I'm sure you could get used to an iPad or something similar, if my ninety-one year old dad managed to learn how to use a Chromebook (never having used a PC).

 

[Tannoyed]

I have a lot of vinyl left over from my younger days. Perhaps things have improved of late but I really don't understand why some get all misty eyed about this medium.

My recollection is of poor pressings, warped discs consuming loads of power, appalling sound quality towards the centre, snap crackle and pop even though I cared lovingly for the ungrateful black round things and any number of other faults. Cd's came in and the improvement was astonishing. No doubt a perfect pressing on a perfectly set up good quality turntable through a high quality pre amp where the RIAA has been matched accurately sounds incredible but I have neither the time, money nor patience to put myself through all of that.

I have retained my faithful Dual 505 for my grooved offerings and that will have to do!!

 

[CJSF]

I have a lot of vinyl left over from my younger days. Perhaps things have improved of late but I really don't understand why some get all misty eyed about this medium.

My recollection is of poor pressings, warped discs consuming loads of power, appalling sound quality towards the centre, snap crackle and pop even though I cared lovingly for the ungrateful black round things and any number of other faults. Cd's came in and the improvement was astonishing. No doubt a perfect pressing on a perfectly set up good quality turntable through a high quality pre amp where the RIAA has been matched accurately sounds incredible but I have neither the time, money nor patience to put myself through all of that.

I have retained my faithful Dual 505 for my grooved offerings and that will have to do!!

You have answered your own question 'Tannoyed' . . . "quality, time, patience, money", some of us are enthusiast hobbyists, we like music and the nuts and bolts of our hobby. Its a bit like a vintage car enthusiast, why does he do it, its not for reliability or comfort?

. . . "Dual 505 . . . will have to do" . . . *pardon*

CJSF

 

[Tannoyed]

Fair comment

I consider myself duly chastised but they are not for me!!

 

[CJSF]

removed . . . by cjsf

 

[MajorFubar]

The analogy with classic cars is superficially a good one, but fails in the detail. There's a lot of subjective qualities to like about old cars which you may feel a modern just doesn't have, despite its superior reliability, economy, build-quality and safety. There's a lot of wiggle-room for personal preference and taste, and as an enthusiast of retro/classic/vintage cars, I totally get the appeal.

Now you'd think the same wiggle-room exists in the HiFi world, seeing that we're always told there's no right or wrong, it's all about what sounds good to you. But in reality, that's only partly true in the case of equipment which has any pretentions at all of being considered 'HiFi' (which is a point my forum-compatriot davedotco has laboured for some time, albeit often to deaf ears).

Truth is, everything about vinyl, from the cutting of the lacquer to the duplication and playback, is fatally compromised and the SQ decreases every step of the way. It can't even manage to maintain a consistent sound quality across the diameter of the disc for insurmountable reasons (even a cassette could manage this), and no two LPs of the same album have a cat in hell's chance of sounding exactly the same. Plus it has an awful noise-floor, far worse than a Dolby B tape, mediocre stereo separation which gets worse at frequency extremes (especially bass), and suffers from unavoidable intrinsic distrotions associated with electro-mechanically reading soundwaves etched in the grooves of a plastic disc by scraṗing through them with a bit of stone.

So you can love the sound of your record player (like I do) so long as you don't kid yourself that in terms of maintaining a faithfulness to the original recording (be it analogue or digital) it has the potential to be anywhere near as 'HiFi' as a fairly rudimentary digital system. If a digital source sounds rubbish it'll be because of surmountable compromises in the replay electronics (ie too cheap or poorly designed). But with vinyl and records, it's always a battle of brilliant engineering trying to triumph over hopelessly-compromised technical limitations. But to be honest it works amazingly well.