My thoughts on Neil Young and his Pono music player

[MrReaper182]

He is my thoughts on Neil Young and his hi-res pono music player. The big recored companies have found away to sell you the music you most probablly all ready own by making you buy it again in hi-res. Neil Young does not care about sound quality as he claims as all he has done is jummped into bed with the big recored labels in the hopes that people will re buy his and his mates music again. If he did care about sound quality he will be trying to do something about compressed music. A badly produced master of an album is still going to sound bad in hi-res, what are you doing about that Mr Young? Nothing that's what.

To get word of mouth out about the Pono he had a few of his music friends like the likes of Beck and Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers talk about sound quality and how important it is. Funny how you use Beck as his last album suffered from compression. Good album but badly produced. I can see he really cares about good sound quality, not. And we all know how badly produced Chili albums have been. Again sounds like Flea cares about sound quality.

People like me who own a huge record and CD collection are not going to rebuy their music just so they can listen to it on his music player at 14 to 29 quid an album. Most young people (wrongly I might add) think playing anying for music is a rip off so **** luck trying to sell them an album priced 24 quid. If you want people to buy hi-res music from your Pono music store then why not price an album at 10 quid then people will be much more tempted to use it. Also will his Pono music store have a huge range of music styles or will it just be classic rock and the like. I would like to see lots of new classical, hardcore punk, world, hip-hop, jazz, electronic and metal music being sold on there and not just the established bands. I doubt that will be the case as new bands are finding it hard to sell their music and trying to sell it in hi-res is even harder when most people (again wrongly) will not pay for their music if it can be helped.

How many people who buy a Pono are going to use rubbish headphones with it (some may even use the dreaded Beats) defeats the purpose Mr young. Like I've just said his time and money would be a million times better spent trying to end compression because hi-res music can suffer from that problem too.

I have lost all resect for Mr Young as I really believe he got into bed with the big music companies and that he does not care about improving sound quality and cares more about money. Class me as an ex fan. Rant over and thanks for reading.

 

[BenLaw]

Please pass the bottle clockwise.

 

[ellisdj]

I think judgement should be saved for after the products are released.

I agree £24 is way too high for an album - however if you listen to an album an lot and you can get a much better quality version then there is definate mileage in buying it again.

Its only the same as rebuying a Blu you owned as a DVD.

 

[Overdose]

Its only the same as rebuying a Blu you owned as a DVD.

No, it's not.

It's more like buying the DVD again, but having it spread out over several discs.

All things being equal, a high res track is simply larger in file size than CD standard. It doesn't have any additional useable definition, unlike Blu-Ray.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Its only the same as rebuying a Blu you owned as a DVD.

No, it's not.

It's more like buying the DVD again, but having it spread out over several discs.

All things being equal, a high res track is simply larger in file size than CD standard. It doesn't have any additional useable definition, unlike Blu-Ray.

That would depend on how the hi-def track was produced.

 

[cheeseboy]

Neil Young does not care about sound quality as he claims as all he has done is jummped into bed with the big recored labels in the hopes that people will re buy his and his mates music again.

do you have a quote for this as I have been unable to find anything saying such?

If he did care about sound quality he will be trying to do something about compressed music. A badly produced master of an album is still going to sound bad in hi-res, what are you doing about that Mr Young? Nothing that's what.

erm, I thought one of the whole points of the Pono music service was to offer better mastered tracks (re not compressed and limited to hell) but it's a chicken and egg scenario - the music companies want to see if the pono is worthwhile them investing the time and money in to do doing such things.

To get word of mouth out about the Pono he had a few of his music friends like the likes of Beck and Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers talk about sound quality and how important it is. Funny how you use Beck as his last album suffered from compression. Good album but badly produced. I can see he really cares about good sound quality, not. And we all know how badly produced Chili albums have been. Again sounds like Flea cares about sound quality.

Isn't that why he got them to speak out though? IE they felt as though their music was not getting out as intended. It's a point I do harp on about, but it needs to be made time and time again, once a band and a producer hand off to the record company for mastering, they can, and more often than not lose control of what happens then. The loudness wars have been the mastering, not the production/mixing of the albums, yet I often see hifi people berating artists and producers when it's nack all to do with them.

People like me who own a huge record and CD collection are not going to rebuy their music just so they can listen to it on his music player at 14 to 29 quid an album. Most young people (wrongly I might add) think playing anying for music is a rip off so **** luck trying to sell them an album priced 24 quid. If you want people to buy hi-res music from your Pono music store then why not price an album at 10 quid then people will be much more tempted to use it. Also will his Pono music store have a huge range of music styles or will it just be classic rock and the like. I would like to see lots of new classical, hardcore punk, world, hip-hop, jazz, electronic and metal music being sold on there and not just the established bands. I doubt that will be the case as new bands are finding it hard to sell their music and trying to sell it in hi-res is even harder when most people (again wrongly) will not pay for their music if it can be helped.

Far too many presumptions there. Why not perhaps fire off an email to the company and find out? Opening a new virtual record store is not going to have much uptake if there is no instantly recognised music for people to latch on to and it's a load of obscure things that only a tiny percentage want. That's just business and as much as it sucks, it's the way it is.

How many people who buy a Pono are going to use rubbish headphones with it (some may even use the dreaded Beats) defeats the purpose Mr young.

That's a massive assumption based on nothing. Even if they are listening to it with Beats headphones, that's still better than stock headphones. In fact, I'm not even sure if the Pono comes with headphones so one will need something anyways. One thing Beats has done has got a *lot* more people interested in better quality headphones, which is no bad thing in the long run. I'm sure the likes of senhieser, sony, akg etc are all riding coattails on this.

Like I've just said his time and money would be a million times better spent trying to end compression because hi-res music can suffer from that problem too.

I agree wholeheartidly, but from marking point of view, you've got a much better chance of selling something if it's marketed as new and improved (high res, with preferably better masters) rather than saying you have to buy exactly the same thing again, but just re-mastered. How many of the average people in the street know or care what re-mastered means, but if you say high-def, they are going to think it's better.

I have lost all resect for Mr Young as I really believe he got into bed with the big music companies and that he does not care about improving sound quality and cares more about money. Class me as an ex fan. Rant over and thanks for reading.

Really? I have to say that's pretty narrow minded to suddenly class yourself as an ex fan of somebody who has made and makes great music because they want to try and push for better quality within the music industry, surely we should be supporting him should we not?

 

[friendly_ghost]

+1 (Old Neil really can't do anything wrong in my book)

 

[ellisdj]

Could be a game changer if we get modern music well produced in high res formats - there is no reason not to do this.

I dont think its the production of CD's or compression used thats 100% the problem in the hifi industry - far from it.

But very few do what I do to their music collection - Ayre do which is why they are involved if you ask me. Meridian were involved a bit as well

 

[MrReaper182]

Neil Young does not care about sound quality as he claims as all he has done is jummped into bed with the big recored labels in the hopes that people will re buy his and his mates music again.

do you have a quote for this as I have been unable to find anything saying such?

If he did care about sound quality he will be trying to do something about compressed music. A badly produced master of an album is still going to sound bad in hi-res, what are you doing about that Mr Young? Nothing that's what.

erm, I thought one of the whole points of the Pono music service was to offer better mastered tracks (re not compressed and limited to hell) but it's a chicken and egg scenario - the music companies want to see if the pono is worthwhile them investing the time and money in to do doing such things.

To get word of mouth out about the Pono he had a few of his music friends like the likes of Beck and Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers talk about sound quality and how important it is. Funny how you use Beck as his last album suffered from compression. Good album but badly produced. I can see he really cares about good sound quality, not. And we all know how badly produced Chili albums have been. Again sounds like Flea cares about sound quality.

Isn't that why he got them to speak out though? IE they felt as though their music was not getting out as intended. It's a point I do harp on about, but it needs to be made time and time again, once a band and a producer hand off to the record company for mastering, they can, and more often than not lose control of what happens then. The loudness wars have been the mastering, not the production/mixing of the albums, yet I often see hifi people berating artists and producers when it's nack all to do with them.

People like me who own a huge record and CD collection are not going to rebuy their music just so they can listen to it on his music player at 14 to 29 quid an album. Most young people (wrongly I might add) think playing anying for music is a rip off so **** luck trying to sell them an album priced 24 quid. If you want people to buy hi-res music from your Pono music store then why not price an album at 10 quid then people will be much more tempted to use it. Also will his Pono music store have a huge range of music styles or will it just be classic rock and the like. I would like to see lots of new classical, hardcore punk, world, hip-hop, jazz, electronic and metal music being sold on there and not just the established bands. I doubt that will be the case as new bands are finding it hard to sell their music and trying to sell it in hi-res is even harder when most people (again wrongly) will not pay for their music if it can be helped.

Far too many presumptions there. Why not perhaps fire off an email to the company and find out? Opening a new virtual record store is not going to have much uptake if there is no instantly recognised music for people to latch on to and it's a load of obscure things that only a tiny percentage want. That's just business and as much as it sucks, it's the way it is.

How many people who buy a Pono are going to use rubbish headphones with it (some may even use the dreaded Beats) defeats the purpose Mr young.

That's a massive assumption based on nothing. Even if they are listening to it with Beats headphones, that's still better than stock headphones. In fact, I'm not even sure if the Pono comes with headphones so one will need something anyways. One thing Beats has done has got a *lot* more people interested in better quality headphones, which is no bad thing in the long run. I'm sure the likes of senhieser, sony, akg etc are all riding coattails on this.

Like I've just said his time and money would be a million times better spent trying to end compression because hi-res music can suffer from that problem too.

I agree wholeheartidly, but from marking point of view, you've got a much better chance of selling something if it's marketed as new and improved (high res, with preferably better masters) rather than saying you have to buy exactly the same thing again, but just re-mastered. How many of the average people in the street know or care what re-mastered means, but if you say high-def, they are going to think it's better.

I have lost all resect for Mr Young as I really believe he got into bed with the big music companies and that he does not care about improving sound quality and cares more about money. Class me as an ex fan. Rant over and thanks for reading.

Really? I have to say that's pretty narrow minded to suddenly class yourself as an ex fan of somebody who has made and makes great music because they want to try and push for better quality within the music industry, surely we should be supporting him should we not?

If Mr Young really cared about sound quality as he claimes he would be trying to do something about compressed music.

I am a huge fan of blues artist Seasick steve. He has album called You can't teach an old dog new tricks which has lots of great songs on but I can not listen to the album for very long though my hi-fi separates system because it is much to compressed. Re-releasing that album in hi-res or any other "better" format will not make the album sound any better as it will still be compressed and unlistenable. The only way your make that album sound non compressed is if Seasick went in to the studio and re recorded it and the producer did a better job on the final edit.

Compressed music will not go away just because Mr Young has a hi-res music player and store to sell you the hi-res music. There are all ready hi-res music players and stores to sell you the hi-res music out on the market and we still have the loudness wars. Big recored labels have been releasing compressed music since the 80's and hi-res music will not make them stop and go "we have be releasing bad sounding albums, we should stop doing this" They do it so their acts can sound louder on the radio because the louder the music is on the radio the more your likely the listener is to notice the track, or so goes the theory. They don't care if the music sounds rubbish because of that. I would love it if it would make things change but big record companies don't care about music only making money. Most mainstrean pop albums are highly compressed and they are the biggest sellers in today's music world so I guess big record labels will contiune their thinking that the louder the record the more it will sell and not give a damn about what it is doing to the sound quality.

Mr Young and his musical friends could be trying to get lots of produceds to say no to releasing compressed albums and doing a lot more to sort that mess out becaue like I keep saying a badly produced album is still going to be a bad sounding hi-res music track. He has enough clout in the music world to make a big difference to how albums are produced for the better but he is not doing that and why is he not doing that if he cares so much about sound quality?

 

[manicm]

This thread is completely pointless. Has the OP bought the player and heard it? No. Yet he offers his unbiased opinion. Linn initially condemned Pono too but have since reconsidered their position. The player may actually sound excellent, and may offer hifi on the go to travellers. If Sony, Astell & Kern (ridiculously priced), FiOO et al can release players then why not Neil Young? And he has decried the sound of CDs long before it became fashionable, in fact he endorsed DVD-A on pure sound terms.

This thread is just another rant.

 

[Alec]

Travellers?

Raving old man who can't hear anymore?

What?

 

[Alec]

Is that what you meant?

Anyway, I look forward to your unbiased opinion on this marvel of musical reproduction once you've heard it.

 

[cheeseboy]

If Mr Young really cared about sound quality as he claimes he would be trying to do something about compressed music.

ok, so you seem to have ignored all the questions I asked an continued down the "this is what I think without citation route". As I said, iirc, one of the reasons Neil Young wants to open the pono store was to get the uncompressed masters and release those. Although it's hidden under the veil of high def as a selling point.

I am a huge fan of blues artist Seasick steve. He has album called You can't teach an old dog new tricks which has lots of great songs on but I can not listen to the album for very long though my hi-fi separates system because it is much to compressed. Re-releasing that album in hi-res or any other "better" format will not make the album sound any better as it will still be compressed and unlistenable. The only way your make that album sound non compressed is if Seasick went in to the studio and re recorded it and the producer did a better job on the final edit.

sigh, again, you're completely ignoring what I said, It's not the artist or the producer that's doing the major compression, it's the record comanies telling the mastering engineer to do it. Please take a little time to learn the difference between mixing and mastering and stop having a go at the artists and producers when they are not at fault.

Compressed music will not go away just because Mr Young has a hi-res music player and store to sell you the hi-res music.

none of the other stores have had as much backing and as much publicity and if one of the aims is to get better mastered music, even if it is in high res, that's a good thing no?

There are all ready hi-res music players and stores to sell you the hi-res music out on the market and we still have the loudness wars. Big recored labels have been releasing compressed music since the 80's and hi-res music will not make them stop and go "we have be releasing bad sounding albums, we should stop doing this" They do it so their acts can sound louder on the radio because the louder the music is on the radio the more your likely the listener is to notice the track, or so goes the theory. They don't care if the music sounds rubbish because of that. I would love it if it would make things change but big record companies don't care about music only making money. Most mainstrean pop albums are highly compressed and they are the biggest sellers in today's music world so I guess big record labels will contiune their thinking that the louder the record the more it will sell and not give a damn about what it is doing to the sound quality.

so, you should support the pono store then if it's striving to get better quality music from the source then shouldn't you?

Mr Young and his musical friends could be trying to get lots of produceds to say no to releasing compressed albums and doing a lot more to sort that mess out becaue like I keep saying a badly produced album is still going to be a bad sounding hi-res music track. He has enough clout in the music world to make a big difference to how albums are produced for the better but he is not doing that and why is he not doing that if he cares so much about sound quality?

christ on a bike MrReaper. Why are you deliberatley ignoring everything that's been said? He *is* trying to get better produced music out there, unless you can find me a citation that says he isn't and he's doing what you say he is doing then I'm sorry, but I'm calling out what you are saying as an ill informed ignorant rant based on nothing but bollocks.

 

[ellisdj]

Its not really Neil Young behind the player its Ayre Acosutics - they know a lot about digital audio.

Just noticed they have an audio store just opened even detailing how the music has been recorded.

https://www.ayre.com/ayrestore/

 

[Craig M.]

If it's any consolation cheeseboy, I know what you mean and agree with you.

Dynamic range compression and levels pushed into clipping are down to the mastering engineer, and this will usually be done at the request of the record label. The mastering engineer could always tell them to sling their hook, but the record label will just give the job to someone who'll do what they're told. Dynamic range compression isn't always that bad though, Will.i.am and Britney Spears - Scream and shout probably has the dynamic range of a wet fart, but still sounds great.

I don't see pono, or any other 'hi-res' anything, making the slightest difference to music sales, I think that boat sailed long ago.

 

[MajorFubar]

I do sort of see where MrReaper is coming from. Sorry. We do need better masters out there, but we don't need hi-res files or another audio player on the market to facilitate them (such as a Pono, which looks like something Steve Jobs might have rejected six years ago as a design-proposal for a the 4th Gen iPod Nano). We just don't need the new technology. What we need are better masters. Existing digital-replay technology is already capable of making the absolute most of good quality masters. And it's this side of it which smells like a marketing ploy, even if his wider aspirations appear to be good.

 

[ellisdj]

Need new technology - maybe not - Higher sampling bit rates, no compression is hopefully the future of all music - not just classical. I dont see why its taken so long. I feel the CD should be replaced with the flash drive or simialr if a medium is needed. Cheap with much more storage and easier to get to sound good - USB power issues aside (already taken care of)

The Pono player is going to be a portable player for the sound quality consciitious. This is not a bad thing to have in the market, I hope it does very well

There is more and more wireless speakers becoming available, sound boxes etc. This is going with consumer demand obviously but definately against principles of overall sound quality.

I stand up for anything that fights the other way - if you hear it sound good on your way to work - you will want it to sound good when you get home from work as well.

 

[cheeseboy]

I do sort of see where MrReaper is coming from. Sorry. We do need better masters out there, but we don't need hi-res files or another audio player on the market to facilitate them (such as a Pono, which looks like something Steve Jobs might have rejected six years ago as a design-proposal for a the 4th Gen iPod Nano). We just don't need the new technology. What we need are better masters. Existing digital-replay technology is already capable of making the absolute most of good quality masters. And it's this side of it which smells like a marketing ploy, even if his wider aspirations appear to be good.

I would never disagree that the mastering needs to be better, and I've never said the opposite! What I'm saying is that sometimes people need a new technology to piggy back on to in order to get that, and as a community of supposed people who want the best sound, shouldn't we all be supporting that instead of fighting against it? If it takes high res (no matter what your views on it) to get that, then that's surely a good thing regardless isn't it?

Bearing in mind that this is a sector where marketing is king, I'm not sure why people who will eat up marketing from cable manufacturers and existing hifi manufacturers are now suddenly crying foul. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. (not aimed at you major btw, just in general).

 

[Jota180]

There's far too much smoke and mirrors with regards to this subject. The basic facts are, the quality original masters are there. These could be used to make quality CD's. There would be little or no need for Hi Rez if that were the case.

What Neil Young and others should have done is tackled the music execs whose decisions influence how well, or badly, CD's are mastered and produced. That would have resulted in better quality music for all at no extra cost. I fear the last part is the stumbling block for the industry as they see £'$$$$ in the alternative of making crap CD's and good quality Hi Rez for which they'll charge the earth. Should you download your HiRez album, you should perhaps realise that it means the record company is taking 3 times the cut they would if you bought that recording in a store. The band don't get any more. That's what this game is all about.

The bottom line here is this is an artificial situation. Good quality CD's are not impossible, far from it. They're deliberately made bad for a number of reasons and these reasons are erroneously been used to justify HiRez.

If Mr Young and his fellow musicians really care about the situation of poor sounding music, they're going about it in totally the wrong way.

 

[cheeseboy]

If Mr Young and his fellow musicians really care about the situation of poor sounding music, they're going about it in totally the wrong way.

I disagree, I think he's going about it in the right way - he's playing the game how it needs to be played, otherwise nothing will happen.

Some people seem to have this idilyc world in their head whereby the artists have all the power and can do and change things. It's just not the case, they have to play the game like anybody else. If they want to make money from their music they are the mercy of the record labels and 9 times out of 10 have to put up and shut up, otherwise they'll get dropped like a sack of bricks. I wish people would stop saying the arists can do this that and the other, they can't, full stop, they have no power. The only way to achieve anything is to play them at their own game, and the sooner people realise that, the better.

Their only other option is to self release, and unless you are already a sucessful artist, that's just not going to pull in enough money for you to do it as a full time thing. So as a musician, what would you do? Be all self rightous and working in B&Q, or just let the record company do it's thing so you can continue making money and do what you love?

Edit - I just want to be clear on something though. I don't agree with the currently hi res sales technique used by most hifi companies, and without proper re-mastering, like we all say, it's worthless and is just a label to sell stuff. I would love record companies to stop standing over the mastering engineers, nothing would be greater, but it's not going to happen atm. The only reason I'm defending Neil Young is because he's the only one that seems to want to make a difference by being involved in setting up a dedicated store (yes, there are already ones out there, but they are pretty small and niche, and aren't up to much) in order to try and get better quality mastered music out there. I just find it odd that those very people who should be embracing this are now calling him all sorts of names and questioning his commitment - even classing themselves as an ex-fan now - I mean wtf??!!. I'm guessing he doesn't need the cash, so he's doing it for the very reason people on here want it for, yet people are against it. I just don't get it? Apart from whinging on a message board, what have the naysayers done in order to help get better quality music out there?

 

[Overdose]

Some interesting and valid points so far.

The fact is that high res releases are ostensibly the very same files that are downmixed to create CDs, so it is very disengenuous for these to be sold as new and special creations to suit 'audiophiles'. Nothing audible is lost in the downmix process, so a CD can be every bit as good as the master.

The amount of dynamic compression used post production will depend largely on the decisions of the labels, although not always. Its use is always seen as a bad thing by enthusiasts, but few actually realise why it is used at all and don't understand its benefits. Without the use of dynamic compression, some music would be unlistenable in anything but the most quiet of environments.

 

[steve_1979]

He is my thoughts on Neil Young and his hi-res pono music player. The big recored companies have found away to sell you the music you most probablly all ready own by making you buy it again in hi-res. Neil Young does not care about sound quality as he claims as all he has done is jummped into bed with the big recored labels in the hopes that people will re buy his and his mates music again. If he did care about sound quality he will be trying to do something about compressed music. A badly produced master of an album is still going to sound bad in hi-res, what are you doing about that Mr Young? Nothing that's what.

To get word of mouth out about the Pono he had a few of his music friends like the likes of Beck and Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers talk about sound quality and how important it is. Funny how you use Beck as his last album suffered from compression. Good album but badly produced. I can see he really cares about good sound quality, not. And we all know how badly produced Chili albums have been. Again sounds like Flea cares about sound quality.

People like me who own a huge record and CD collection are not going to rebuy their music just so they can listen to it on his music player at 14 to 29 quid an album. Most young people (wrongly I might add) think playing anying for music is a rip off so **** luck trying to sell them an album priced 24 quid. If you want people to buy hi-res music from your Pono music store then why not price an album at 10 quid then people will be much more tempted to use it. Also will his Pono music store have a huge range of music styles or will it just be classic rock and the like. I would like to see lots of new classical, hardcore punk, world, hip-hop, jazz, electronic and metal music being sold on there and not just the established bands. I doubt that will be the case as new bands are finding it hard to sell their music and trying to sell it in hi-res is even harder when most people (again wrongly) will not pay for their music if it can be helped.

How many people who buy a Pono are going to use rubbish headphones with it (some may even use the dreaded Beats) defeats the purpose Mr young. Like I've just said his time and money would be a million times better spent trying to end compression because hi-res music can suffer from that problem too.

I have lost all resect for Mr Young as I really believe he got into bed with the big music companies and that he does not care about improving sound quality and cares more about money. Class me as an ex fan. Rant over and thanks for reading.

Good post. I couldn't agree more.

 

[Rethep]

Can Neil Young (age about 70, very likely to suffer from hearing loss because of his 'job' as well) hear the difference anyway ?

Let him please instead take care of the release of "Time fades away" (1973)!

 

[Joe Cox]

Some first impressions of the device from a (pretty brief) preview event.

 

[Al ears]

Some interesting points in this thread so far and I have nothing against hiRes players as I use one all the time in my job.

Again am also not too concerned for paying top price for a decent album that I do not already own in some other format (I quite often am forced to pay top whack for a decent bit of vinyl so why not a hiRes download).

The Pono itself is my major stumbling block - just look at the thing. OK, so the shape will allow a 'more efficient cylindrical battery' but then you notice the battery life is given as 8 hours? Come on, my Colorfly does much more than that and it is comparatively ancient compared to this device. The Pono supports flac files but I have not seen what resolution and the lack of DSD support may be a turn-off for some including me.

No, my money is on a Geek Wave 128 .....................