CD player v computer-based music

[JoelSim]

the_lhc:JoelSim: I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

How God's name do you get from CD players being phased out to that conclusion? All that's going to happen is that the source will become "invisible" and DACs will become the focus rather than the CD player. That and as WHF pointed out in the Moon review, the manufacturers will start to include DACs in their stereo amps, so you'll just have one less box on your rack.

And then in 20 years time CD player sales will suddenly start to rise on a wave of nostalgia (Headline: CD sales outstrip cassette for the first time in since 1992!) and small specialist stores will offer limited runs of CD re-pressings alongside their usual vinyl products...

Active speakers. DACs.

Active speakers with DACs.

Active speakers with DACs and wireless connectivity.

One box solution.

Commodity.

Smaller companies out of business.

Less choice.

No need for experts. Or magazines.

Convergence of everything including sound.

Everyone owning a Philips/Aiwa/Matsui.

Building down to a budget.

Cheaper music for all.

Less quality.

End of.

 

[Gusboll]

Ok, so going back to the original point, Charlie Jefferson has named his particular CD player as being inferior to his pc/dac setup. Anyone else have any other comparisons they would care to share?

 

[Anonymous]

Humming

Grammophone

Record player

Cassette

CD

Minidisc

Computer Audio

Silent audio?

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:the_lhc:JoelSim: I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

How God's name do you get from CD players being phased out to that conclusion? All that's going to happen is that the source will become "invisible" and DACs will become the focus rather than the CD player. That and as WHF pointed out in the Moon review, the manufacturers will start to include DACs in their stereo amps, so you'll just have one less box on your rack.

And then in 20 years time CD player sales will suddenly start to rise on a wave of nostalgia (Headline: CD sales outstrip cassette for the first time in since 1992!) and small specialist stores will offer limited runs of CD re-pressings alongside their usual vinyl products...

Active speakers.

OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm. Neither is there any reason to suggest that seperate amps, dacs, pre-amps etc etc won't all continue to be made by any number of small, medium and large manufacturers just because CD players go out of fashion. Hi-fi technology has been evolving and changing since the wax cylinder and we still have all the small specialist companies turning out their esoteric products.

 

[Anonymous]

I think it's worth putting all of this into context, Dac's are seen as giving massive benefits to the listener and therefore even when hi fi manufacturers do include this in their amps, it is going to be for the premium amps, it is not going to become a common occurrence. As for the mention of active speakers, well correct me if I am wrong but I doubt you are going to see active floorstanders and furthermore, I can't see there being any let up in competition both in the amp sector and speaker sector. The active speakers with inbuilt dac from avi do not come cheap and indeed I can not envisage this ever being the norm. This is all sounds very much like the hysteria over cd's wiping out vinyl but it hasn't been the case at all. In addition there will always be those who demadn nothing but cd players and will forever be convinced that the price difference between cd players and dac's definitely means the dac is the cheap less quality option. In the overall scheme of things anything which takes sound quality forwards at an affordable price has to be a good thing surely. As for local dealers, well the market will sustain those can adapt, if they can't adapt they will go under. It is unfortunate but things do move on and in doing so overall the shift is a benefit.

 

[crusaderlord]

Well i am not at all convinced that CD players will be wholesale replaced by external DAC's and PC's in the next few years.

Yes there may be a gradual increase in PC based users but mass market wise i dont think DAC's are understood at all as easy to use technology.

CD's will continue as these are still preferred by many as the medium of choice but they also still provide a great source to rip from onto PC's in the first place. Many people still like to own a hardcopy of what they rip from just in case etc.....

I think it is more likely that CD will be incorporated into hard drive server boxes (we are seeing this now) and these will come down in price to more competitive levels. Then the CD player will have continued but just in a different format inside a server box. The PC will still generally be a separate entity.

Still its going to be interesting to see what does happen.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:
OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

 

[Alec]

ALL companies build i to a budget, whether up or down.

 

[The_Lhc]

Octopo:the_lhc:
OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

Ok. I DON'T think there will be. Aha, I win, I said it in CAPITALS!

Which is just about as much evidence or justification as anyone has given...

 

[Anonymous]

crusaderlord:Yes there may be a gradual increase in PC based users but mass market wise i dont think DAC's are understood at all as easy to use technology.

It's the same with everything though, CD players, HD, digital TV. Once it becomes the norm it's taken for granted.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:Octopo:the_lhc:
OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

Ok. I DON'T think there will be. Aha, I win, I said it in CAPITALS!

Which is just about as much evidence or justification as anyone has given...

OK, the awareness, availiblity and quality of active speakers is increasing. Same with computer audio. Happy coincidence?

 

[Alec]

Octopo:the_lhc:

OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

But it is actually far more logical that active speakers would cause a drop in amplifier sales.

And, presumably, a drop in CDP sales should be accompanied, if by anything, by an increase in standalone DAC sales...

 

[JoelSim]

hi fi newbie:I think it's worth putting all of this into context, Dac's are seen as giving massive benefits to the listener and therefore even when hi fi manufacturers do include this in their amps, it is going to be for the premium amps, it is not going to become a common occurrence. As for the mention of active speakers, well correct me if I am wrong but I doubt you are going to see active floorstanders and furthermore, I can't see there being any let up in competition both in the amp sector and speaker sector. The active speakers with inbuilt dac from avi do not come cheap and indeed I can not envisage this ever being the norm. This is all sounds very much like the hysteria over cd's wiping out vinyl but it hasn't been the case at all. In addition there will always be those who demadn nothing but cd players and will forever be convinced that the price difference between cd players and dac's definitely means the dac is the cheap less quality option. In the overall scheme of things anything which takes sound quality forwards at an affordable price has to be a good thing surely. As for local dealers, well the market will sustain those can adapt, if they can't adapt they will go under. It is unfortunate but things do move on and in doing so overall the shift is a benefit.

Hence my reference to Tesco. Do you honestly believe we get a wider choice of quality produce since the big supermarkets have taken over the vast majority of small shops? Is an apple better because it's a perfect shape even though it's got half the taste? Do suppliers then grow apples for shape rather than taste as they know that the supermarkets won't accept them if they don't look perfect? Do we have a more enjoyable life because every high street is a carbon copy of the next town's? Do you get better service from a Currys? Will the Currys and Comets of this world be able to beat the independents to the detriment of the sector and the public? Will the large manufacturers be able to produce these commodity convergent sound & vision units at better cost than the smaller companies? Will that mean less choice for us? Will that mean less interest for us and future generations? We've seen all this happen with boybands and compressed/overproduced for the masses rubbish already

 

[JoelSim]

al7478:Octopo:the_lhc:

OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

But it is actually far more logical that active speakers would cause a drop in amplifier sales.

And, presumably, a drop in CDP sales should be accompanied, if by anything, by an increase in standalone DAC sales...

I think you've missed my point totally. I'm not talking about CD player sales per se, my post of the long list was about a music machine becoming one ie to the detriment of CD/amps/cables/supports etc etc where every large company produces a range to a budget and the only differences are in 'lifestyle'. The products are the same but in different boxes and marketed in a slightly different way.

 

[Alec]

Joel, as long as you persist with the silly supermarket/apples thing, i shall point out, again, that they sell quite a range of apples.

Tesco, for example, do not jsut sell tesco's own apples.

You do know that really, dont you joel?

 

[JoelSim]

al7478:

Joel, as long as you persist with the silly supermarket/apples thing, i shall point out, again, that they sell quite a range of apples.

Tesco, for example, do not jsut sell tesco's own apples.

You do know that really, dont you joel?

[Shakes head in frustration]

 

[Alec]

JoelSim:al7478:Octopo:the_lhc:

OK stop there, why active speakers? There's no correlation between CD players being phased out and active speakers becoming the norm.

I'm with Joel on that one. I think there will be a direct correlation between fall of CD player sales and the rise of active speaker sales.

But it is actually far more logical that active speakers would cause a drop in amplifier sales.

And, presumably, a drop in CDP sales should be accompanied, if by anything, by an increase in standalone DAC sales...

I think you've missed my point totally. I'm not talking about CD player sales per se, my post of the long list was about a music machine becoming one ie to the detriment of CD/amps/cables/supports etc etc where every large company produces a range to a budget and the only differences are in 'lifestyle'. The products are the same but in different boxes and marketed in a slightly different way.

Something very similar doesnt already happen in the hifi industry then?

I'm sorry, im starting to doubt you're trying.

You abviously are very bored with the whole subject.

 

[The_Lhc]

crusaderlord:Well i am not at all convinced that CD players will be wholesale replaced by external DAC's and PC's in the next few years.

Not in 1 to 5 years no, I'd agree with you there, but fast forward ten years and most people will have some kind of digital storage system that all their music is stored on and possibly their video as well (depends on how far storage density comes in that time).

Yes there may be a gradual increase in PC based users but mass market wise i dont think DAC's are understood at all as easy to use technology.

They won't need to be, a DAC doesn't even need to be a seperate piece of equipment, if it's built into an (pre-)amp as it is with most AV amps and is beginning to be seen in stereo amps then there'll be nothing for the end user to understand.

CD's will continue as these are still preferred by many as the medium of choice but they also still provide a great source to rip from onto PC's in the first place. Many people still like to own a hardcopy of what they rip from just in case etc.....

I think it is more likely that CD will be incorporated into hard drive server boxes (we are seeing this now) and these will come down in price to more competitive levels. Then the CD player will have continued but just in a different format inside a server box.

It'll depend on the speed of development of broadband to be honest, look at the popularity of mp3 downloads, ok it's no good for audiophiles which is why I don't go anywhere near it, but once more stuff is available in loseless formats and broadband reaches speeds that allows it to be downloaded quickly then there'll be no more reason for CD to exist, you won't need to rip at all(which is something a number of people have complained about in the other cd vs pc thread).

Of course the reliance on broadband means that the UK will be 15 years behind the rest of the world so we probably will be the last bastion of CD!

 

[Alec]

JoelSim:al7478:

Joel, as long as you persist with the silly supermarket/apples thing, i shall point out, again, that they sell quite a range of apples.

Tesco, for example, do not jsut sell tesco's own apples.

You do know that really, dont you joel?

[Shakes head in frustration]

Truly the greatest response ive ever read on any forum, at all, ever.

and worthy of every last drop of sarcasm herein.

 

[Anonymous]

Well one thing we have to clarify I guess....

Have hi fi seperates sales fallen or increased in the last 5 years?

 

[Anonymous]

"

Active speakers. DACs.

Active speakers with DACs.

Active speakers with DACs and wireless connectivity.

One box solution.

Commodity.

Smaller companies out of business.

Less choice.

No need for experts. Or magazines.

Convergence of everything including sound.

Everyone owning a Philips/Aiwa/Matsui.

Building down to a budget.

Cheaper music for all.

Less quality.

End of."

Oh Joel. My brother owns a pair of the AVI ADM 9.1's, they are fantastic speakers. If they are pointing to the way forward then I am more than happy with that. Good, solid, sensible engineering. Technical specs that by far exceed that of the system you currently use - and i'm not just talking power here, but control of the drive units that any well designed active speaker will do better than a passive, and the performance of each drive unit itself.

As for cables and equipment stands!?!! Oh dear is all I can say. But if your happy to "give" your money away on things like that, good luck to you............... I have to admit I once fell into that trap. Never again.

Here's one of so many quotes you can google relating to cables etc - "Modern measuring equipment measures considerably more that we can possible hear. Decibels are difficult to understand but I'll try. 10 db is 10 times, but 20 dB is 100 times and so on and we can measure down almost to the thermal noise in copper wire which is -140 dB. The ambient noise in our living rooms is probably 55-60 dB! Therefore the idea that someone may be able to hear something that can't be measured is idiotic."................................

 

[Anonymous]

Joel,

It really isn't hard to rip a CD. You should try it instead of moaning. You could have ripped a couple whilst reading this topic and posting...

I don't know where your computer is relative to the living room. I personally use a laptop and am working on it in the living room in the evenings, so can pop a disc in as I go along. I also have access to an assortment of music services such as Spotify, giving a huge range of music for free.

I think you're wrong about active speakers being a low-quality commodity. I spent a bit of times with studio and musician friends' and the system is far superior. It is in fact a shame that more manufacturers do not embrace it. I would like a three-way active floorstander and to do away with a rack full of power amp's, power supplies, phono-stages, etc.

It is more convenient and sounds better. Win-win I think they call it.

 

[idc]

Thinking into the future, considering how computer savvy the young 'uns are, sets ups such as shown here are going to be the norm, as opposed to this;

which was the height of technology back in my time. But there is now no place for such boomboxes as the sound quality that PC based systems can provide will ensure they continue and take a larger part of the music market.

 

[JoelSim]

al7478:JoelSim:al7478:

Joel, as long as you persist with the silly supermarket/apples thing, i shall point out, again, that they sell quite a range of apples.

Tesco, for example, do not jsut sell tesco's own apples.

You do know that really, dont you joel?

[Shakes head in frustration]

Truly the greatest response ive ever read on any forum, at all, ever.

and worthy of every last drop of sarcasm herein.

OK let me give you another example al.

My g/f sells Buffalo mozzarella, an extremely high quality version that consequently is very expensive. Rather like hifi separates compared to stuff that you would purchase in Dixons. Or Tesco.

Now Tesco don't sell this mozzarella, and the only stuff they do sell tastes of not much, a bit rubbery, ok to pop on a pizza kind of quality.

Having tasted my g/f's mozzarella I now don't want to buy a cheaper, inferior version from Tesco, so I go elsewhere. But if there is no elsewhere because the general public have been conditioned that Tesco sell the best mozzarella and know no better (rather like apples which are (generally) much more tasty when bought from a decent greengrocers, or sausages that are that much nicer because they have been made by a butcher from high quality ingredients rather then en masse to a price), then I can't buy the mozzarella any more. But what I can buy are 3 brands in Tesco of inferior quality. That's what they stock because that's what the masses want. But I don't in this particular case.

And relating it back to sound quality, the convergence of technology will commoditise hifi even further as separate components go out of production, the larger brands then build their one-box music systems (in effect a speaker which you control from your mobile phone or suchlike) and then those who enjoy this area, like myself, lose out. And where we once had hundreds of small businesses involved in the production of hifi, we end up with a few larger companies (who don't care anywhere near as much about sound quality in the scheme of things) controlling things.

Rather like the High Street.

 

[JoelSim]

Eddie Pound:

Joel,

It really isn't hard to rip a CD. You should try it instead of moaning. You could have ripped a couple whilst reading this topic and posting...

I don't know where your computer is relative to the living room. I personally use a laptop and am working on it in the living room in the evenings, so can pop a disc in as I go along. I also have access to an assortment of music services such as Spotify, giving a huge range of music for free.

I think you're wrong about active speakers being a low-quality commodity. I spent a bit of times with studio and musician friends' and the system is far superior. It is in fact a shame that more manufacturers do not embrace it. I would like a three-way active floorstander and to do away with a rack full of power amp's, power supplies, phono-stages, etc.

It is more convenient and sounds better. Win-win I think they call it.

I ripped plenty to an old iPod before it was stolen. It's a chore.