CD player v computer-based music

[Gusboll]

Charlie Jefferson:Joel and other doubters, The tide has turned/is turning. As JD and Chebby, amongst others, have pointed out a DAC/Computer combo equals or surpasses CD alone. In my own case, my CD player and external DAC were left in second place when I hooked up the DAC to my Mac via an Airport Express. Tis true.

And what CD & DAC were you running?

 

[Anonymous]

see my kandy cdp sounds significantly better than flac files on my system. although currently i am using the dac in my onkyo875 and havnt yet tryd a higher quality solution, although i am toying with idea of getting myself a dac magic

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Gusboll:
Charlie Jefferson:Joel and other doubters, The tide has turned/is turning. As JD and Chebby, amongst others, have pointed out a DAC/Computer combo equals or surpasses CD alone. In my own case, my CD player and external DAC were left in second place when I hooked up the DAC to my Mac via an Airport Express. Tis true.

And what CD & DAC were you running?

CD player: Arcam CD92
DAC: Chord64

 

[Anonymous]

garethwd:see my kandy cdp sounds significantly better than flac files on my system. although currently i am using the dac in my onkyo875 and havnt yet tryd a higher quality solution, although i am toying with idea of getting myself a dac magic

Gareth,

The DAC in the 875 is inferior to the DAC in your CD player. That's it.

You're not comparing like with like.

Joel Sim,

The Cyrus SE may have have fewer read errors than their previous transport, but a computer is still better. However, whether you can hear those few missing bits or not is another matter.

 

[JoelSim]

You do realise that there is a forum called 'Computer based music' down below?

From my perspective there are so many factors involved in sound quality, not just the DAC, or the transport. What about cables? What about equipment supports? What about electromagnetic interference? What about mains power conditioning? To all those who don't believe these things make a difference, then I beg to differ.

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in any more computer-based forums as it bores me.

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

No probs. You did say you were going to though, numerous times.

 

[Gusboll]

JoelSim:

You do realise that there is a forum called 'Computer based music' down below?

From my perspective there are so many factors involved in sound quality, not just the DAC, or the transport. What about cables? What about equipment supports? What about electromagnetic interference? What about mains power conditioning? To all those who don't believe these things make a difference, then I beg to differ.

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in any more computer-based forums as it bores me.

This is the hi-fi forum and those are good questions and I for one would be interested in others thoughts. I've got loads of hi-fi and some people are saying that there are better options, others not - it probably sits in both forums.

 

[hammill]

the_lhc:

garethwd:Wouldnt i be right in saying that its not that cut and dry? digital information can get currupted and pick interferance whist zooming down a ethernet cables or flying through the air wifi style and is subject to error correction and possible distorion....just a thought

No, it can't. Ethernet doesn't work like that, the data is sent in packets, if a packet gets corrupted, it's resent, if a packet doesn't arrive, it's resent, ethernet will just keep resending until the data arrives, or it times out, if it times out, you get nothing, you don't get corrupted data.

As for wifi interference, it's the same. Copy a wav file from a PC to a NAS (for example) and regardless of whether you copy via wired Ethernet or wifi the resultant files that arrive on the NAS will be identical, every single time. Replace the NAS with a music streamer such as a Sonos zone player and you can see that the information presented to the DAC will always be correct.

Ethernet is the physical layer and is not responsible for reliable transfer. It does not resend a packet if it does not arrive. You need to go up the protocol stack to transport level protocols such as TCP before reliable transfer is provided. There are protocols such as UDP which can run on ethernet which are not reliable.

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:If the transport doesn't make any difference then how come the Cyrus SE has gained such good press and plaudits from those who know.

Of course the transport makes a difference, *when you're comparing it to another transport*, or when you're comparing one CD player to another CD player. You're comparing the efficiency and accuracy of which the transport pulls the data off the PC, ie how correct that data is compared to the original disc, so one transport can be said to be better than another transport if the data it pulls off the CD is more accurate than the other transport.

But with PC based music you effectively don't have a transport, the data has already been pulled off the CD (without the constraints of having to be done in "real-time"), can be shown (with AccurateRip) that it is bit perfect to the original and is simply being streamed to the DAC using the same mechanisms as a CD transport would stream to a DAC.

So in this instance the PC is almost irrelevant, it's simply the quality of the chosen DAC that is important.

 

[Alec]

JoelSim:

From my perspective there are so many factors involved in sound quality, not just the DAC, or the transport. What about cables? What about equipment supports? What about electromagnetic interference? What about mains power conditioning? To all those who don't believe these things make a difference, then I beg to differ.

I dont think anyone has denied the effects of those other things yet (tho some might). You're really stretching there.

By the by, you seem to own a lot of stuff you do'nt use. You could flog it and make a bit more "beer" money.

Might cheer you up

 

[The_Lhc]

hammill: Ethernet is the physical layer and is not responsible for reliable transfer. It does not resend a packet if it does not arrive. You need to go up the protocol stack to transport level protocols such as TCP before reliable transfer is provided. There are protocols such as UDP which can run on ethernet which are not reliable.

I didn't want to go that deep for fear of confusing people (too much information), especially as in the case of most PC/NAS/streamer combos it's TCP that's being used anyway, so I was implying that in this case.

 

[JoelSim]

Octopo:JoelSim:

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

No probs. You did say you were going to though, numerous times.

I said this would probably be the last CD player I purchased, and that the next time I upgraded it would probably be to a server. This is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future, maybe 3 or 4 years' time.

For what it's worth I do think the CD player is going to be phased out and will start to sell in increasingly small numbers over the next few years as everything becomes electronic.

Over the past few days I've really enjoyed the change in sound from trying a Chord Chameleon between CD and amp compared to a vdh D102 III I have been using. Much of hifi is about tweaking, brands, and the whole business of it.

I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

 

[Ajani]

Gusboll:JoelSim:

You do realise that there is a forum called 'Computer based music' down below?

From my perspective there are so many factors involved in sound quality, not just the DAC, or the transport. What about cables? What about equipment supports? What about electromagnetic interference? What about mains power conditioning? To all those who don't believe these things make a difference, then I beg to differ.

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in any more computer-based forums as it bores me.

This is the hi-fi forum and those are good questions and I for one would be interested in others thoughts. I've got loads of hi-fi and some people are saying that there are better options, others not - it probably sits in both forums.

Since you are talking about both Computers and CD Players, I'd say it could go in either forum...

Actually another forum I've visited has a category called "Digital Domain & Computer Audio" - which covers CD Players, DACs, Computers (basically all things digital)...

 

[Anonymous]

JoelSim:
I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

Anything else you want to blame on computer audio? The Spanish Inquisition perhaps?

 

[JoelSim]

al7478:JoelSim:

From my perspective there are so many factors involved in sound quality, not just the DAC, or the transport. What about cables? What about equipment supports? What about electromagnetic interference? What about mains power conditioning? To all those who don't believe these things make a difference, then I beg to differ.

I dont think anyone has denied the effects of those other things yet (tho some might). You're really stretching there.

By the by, you seem to own a lot of stuff you do'nt use. You could flog it and make a bit more "beer" money.

Might cheer you up

My missus has asked me to load some soothing nighttime music to the iPod/Bose for my son's bedroom, but I just haven't got round to the tedious process of ripping yet. Maybe one day it will get done, there's an Aiwa stack system in there at the moment which sounds better than the iPod/Bose combo.

I have used the Bose on holiday a few times, as I agree with some people in that taking my 5 hifi boxes plus turntable with me would be a PITA.

 

[Gusboll]

JoelSim:Octopo:JoelSim:

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

No probs. You did say you were going to though, numerous times.

I said this would probably be the last CD player I purchased, and that the next time I upgraded it would probably be to a server. This is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future, maybe 3 or 4 years' time.

For what it's worth I do think the CD player is going to be phased out and will start to sell in increasingly small numbers over the next few years as everything becomes electronic.

Over the past few days I've really enjoyed the change in sound from trying a Chord Chameleon between CD and amp compared to a vdh D102 III I have been using. Much of hifi is about tweaking, brands, and the whole business of it.

I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

There would still be "What DAC?" I suppose!

 

[idc]

Thank goodness your back Joel, after your break from being bored of talking about computer based systems. Futhermore, you are not talking rubbish, unlike me and my first post.

So I am not talking to you, because of my hurt feelings, for the next few minutes.

 

[JoelSim]

Octopo:JoelSim:

I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

Anything else you want to blame on computer audio? The Spanish Inquisition perhaps?

I'm not blaming anyone, it's just a sad fact of life. Luckily I live in a place with no chainstores allowed so shopping is still a pleasure.

 

[Anonymous]

Eddie Pound:
garethwd:see my kandy cdp sounds significantly better than flac files on my system. although currently i am using the dac in my onkyo875 and havnt yet tryd a higher quality solution, although i am toying with idea of getting myself a dac magic

Gareth,

The DAC in the 875 is inferior to the DAC in your CD player. That's it.
You're not comparing like with like.

I know thats why i said i hadnt try'd a higher quality solution as yet! and ive no doubt it would sound a lot better pluged into a proper dac! I just havnt got around to trying it yet.

 

[Anonymous]

Umm, not quite. There were only ever a handful of manufacturers making transports - most notably Sony or Philips - which they supplied to the rest of the industry. It was other factors that made the difference, which translates to the electronics immediately after the transport, cabinet damping etc.

On the other point, CD players with a couple of exceptions must read and process data from the CD in one hit, there's no buffering and no opportunity for error correction. Ripping allows both, since it has no requirement to produce sound in real time. That's why theoretically playing a lossless file sound better than the same file played on a CD player, since the only thing that can influence the sound is the audio circuitry in the DAC.

I have an old any mildewed CD that won't play on and CD player, because the errors are just too many. However, it ripped perfectly for the reasons given above.

I'm neutral about the CD/computer argument. However, I would say that it's easier and cheaper to produce a high quality DAC than it is a CD player, because there's less to worry about. Therefore, you should expect a £200 DAC to sound better than a £200 CD player.

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim: I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

How God's name do you get from CD players being phased out to that conclusion? All that's going to happen is that the source will become "invisible" and DACs will become the focus rather than the CD player. That and as WHF pointed out in the Moon review, the manufacturers will start to include DACs in their stereo amps, so you'll just have one less box on your rack.

And then in 20 years time CD player sales will suddenly start to rise on a wave of nostalgia (Headline: CD sales outstrip cassette for the first time in since 1992!) and small specialist stores will offer limited runs of CD re-pressings alongside their usual vinyl products...

 

[Alec]

JoelSim:Octopo:JoelSim:

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

No probs. You did say you were going to though, numerous times.

I said this would probably be the last CD player I purchased, and that the next time I upgraded it would probably be to a server. This is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future, maybe 3 or 4 years' time.

For what it's worth I do think the CD player is going to be phased out and will start to sell in increasingly small numbers over the next few years as everything becomes electronic.

Over the past few days I've really enjoyed the change in sound from trying a Chord Chameleon between CD and amp compared to a vdh D102 III I have been using. Much of hifi is about tweaking, brands, and the whole business of it.

I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

Damn them supermarkets, with their huge choices (including organic fruit n veg, dontcha know). Almost as bad as them hifi chains who sell the same ol' CDPs that all sound, er, eerily similar.

 

[hammill]

the_lhc:

hammill: Ethernet is the physical layer and is not responsible for reliable transfer. It does not resend a packet if it does not arrive. You need to go up the protocol stack to transport level protocols such as TCP before reliable transfer is provided. There are protocols such as UDP which can run on ethernet which are not reliable.

I didn't want to go that deep for fear of confusing people (too much information), especially as in the case of most PC/NAS/streamer combos it's TCP that's being used anyway, so I was implying that in this case.

Apparently that is not the case.My brief investigations indicate that streaming devices do not use TCP because although it is reliable, it may be too slow casuing drop outs in picture or sound. The protocol used is RTP running on top of UDP (Apple uses a variant of this) which does not prevent missing packets. In other words, if you are streaming from a computer you are not guaranteed 100% reliable transfer - of course, the error rate may be so low you cannot hear it.

 

[Alec]

Totally irrelevant but lets all remember that we dont all stream, as all that business seems far to much trouble for some of us. Aye, some of us are hard-wired all the way. For now.

 

[JoelSim]

al7478:JoelSim:Octopo:JoelSim:

And no, I'm not looking into a server-based system. I have a Macbook and I have no intention of using it for music duties, and I also have an iPod and a Bose Sounddock which also aren't used.

No probs. You did say you were going to though, numerous times.

I said this would probably be the last CD player I purchased, and that the next time I upgraded it would probably be to a server. This is not likely to happen in the foreseeable future, maybe 3 or 4 years' time.

For what it's worth I do think the CD player is going to be phased out and will start to sell in increasingly small numbers over the next few years as everything becomes electronic.

Over the past few days I've really enjoyed the change in sound from trying a Chord Chameleon between CD and amp compared to a vdh D102 III I have been using. Much of hifi is about tweaking, brands, and the whole business of it.

I dread to think what it will be like in a few years, I suspect all the smaller dealers will be out of business and the whole hifi arena will be like our High Streets - sad! And everyone will end up with a run-of-the-mill system that sounds exactly like everyone else's. Just like Tesco where you can buy any fruit you want and it all looks great. But tastes of nothing. And actually all the competition is then out of business so you can buy your tastless fruit from anywhere as long as it's a chainstore - Asda, Sainsburys, Tesco, Aldi, Morrisons etc - in fact you'll probably be able to buy your new DACAMPSPEAKER from there too to hook up with your faceless Dell Inspiron, which you won't have to load into your faceless Honda/Nissan/Toyota thingymejig as the local supermarket will deliver it for you.

Then the magazines will go our of business as all the products will be commodities. And so on.

Damn them supermarkets, with their huge choices (including organic fruit n veg, dontcha know). Almost as bad as them hifi chains who sell the same ol' CDPs that all sound, er, eerily similar.

My other half works at Borough Market and the quality of food there surpasses the very best the supermarkets have to offer by a country mile. But yes you do have to pay for it.

And the local Turkish shops to me also sell better fruit and veg than Tesco, and cheaper. Tomatoes on the vine as particularly lush and about 1/3 of the price of the supermarkets. And much much better like you find on the continent rather than the sheep-filled norm that is the UK.