Cable Directionality - do you want proof

[CnoEvil]

I've melted in the heat!

 

[Infiniteloop]

How many of those experiments have involved listening over the past 100 years?

You're right, I won't answer that one. Not only because clearly I can't even remotely give you a figure, but because it's so f---ing stupid I won't lower myself to it.

Without resorting to obscenities or hand-waving, I think the Major's point is that some basic facts about electronics don't require demonstration by listening -- the theory and associated measurements are enough.

That's fine, but the whole point of this thread is about listening.

Never have I said anything against scientific finding. All I've said is that I can hear a difference in the video. I was then faced with a barrage of narrative about 100 years of scientific findings, experiments and theory concerning the nature of electricity passing through a wire. All I asked was if any of that was specifically related to sound. - Is that unreasonable in any way?

Clearly, people can hear differences. Major himself said " I've recently binned a cheap headphone cable from china because it sounded pants". So perhaps, just perhaps, theory and associated measurements aren't enough? Surely what we hear is what matters?

What's being said is that if you are hearing a difference it is for some other reason than supposed directionality of cables. That may be due to one or more of many reasons as already detailed, one of which could be that the whole thing is a con designed to fleece the gullible consumer. Do you find that notion impossible to accept? Is hifi the one area of sales where everyone is honest and above board? Rip offs happen in every other walk of life, why should audio be the exception?

I don't doubt for a moment that every industry has its charlatans and snake oil salesmen. But nobody on here has given me a reasonable explanation of why there's a difference in the video which is both perceptible when viewed and was obvious to the listeners at the Demo. Of course it's not proof of anything, but the effect is there and to suggest post processing of the video is frankly ridiculous as it doesn't explain the audiences reaction to it.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Anderson & Cno. As much as I may value your contributions and comments and even enjoy an occasional 'funny'. I do find too many 'funnies' rather irritating even in this pathetic thread.

No offense and saying this in the expectation of a following barrage of same.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Anderson & Cno. As much as I may value your contributions and comments and even enjoy an occasional 'funny'. I do find too many 'funnies' rather irritating even in this pathetic thread.

No offense and saying this in the expectation of a following barrage of same.

Amen.

 

[BIGBERNARDBRESSLAW]

 

[matt49]

That's fine, but the whole point of this thread is about listening.

Never have I said anything against scientific finding. All I've said is that I can hear a difference in the video. I was then faced with a barrage of narrative about 100 years of scientific findings, experiments and theory concerning the nature of electricity passing through a wire. All I asked was if any of that was specifically related to sound. - Is that unreasonable in any way?

Clearly, people can hear differences. Major himself said " I've recently binned a cheap headphone cable from china because it sounded pants". So perhaps, just perhaps, theory and associated measurements aren't enough? Surely what we hear is what matters?

I was reluctant to get involved in this thread, but here I am anyway.

I think we all have a point where we say: listening says X but common sense says not-X.

For instance, claims have been made for "high-end" ethernet cables making an audible difference to sound from a NAS drive. For me that's definitely a "not-X" scenario. I could cite even weirder examples, e.g. green marker pens on CDs.

In situations like this I would want to ask whether listening is a valid means of deciding whether "X" or "not-X". If common sense says "not-X", then I have to disregard the results of listening. So sometimes listening is useless for me.

 

[Infiniteloop]

That's fine, but the whole point of this thread is about listening.

Never have I said anything against scientific finding. All I've said is that I can hear a difference in the video. I was then faced with a barrage of narrative about 100 years of scientific findings, experiments and theory concerning the nature of electricity passing through a wire. All I asked was if any of that was specifically related to sound. - Is that unreasonable in any way?

Clearly, people can hear differences. Major himself said " I've recently binned a cheap headphone cable from china because it sounded pants". So perhaps, just perhaps, theory and associated measurements aren't enough? Surely what we hear is what matters?

I was reluctant to get involved in this thread, but here I am anyway.

I think we all have a point where we say: listening says X but common sense says not-X.

For instance, claims have been made for "high-end" ethernet cables making an audible difference to sound from a NAS drive. For me that's definitely a "not-X" scenario. I could cite even weirder examples, e.g. green marker pens on CDs.

In situations like this I would want to ask whether listening is a valid means of deciding whether "X" or "not-X". If common sense says "not-X", then I have to disregard the results of listening. So sometimes listening is useless for me.

I agree with most of what you say except that for me, listening is paramount.

For instance, I use a cheap printer USB cable in one of my systems because I find it sounds better with those components than the more expensive cable I use in my other system. I do not believe necessarily that the more expensive an item is, the better will it sound.

Obviously I have found that cables do sound different to each other, and this has come about through years of listening.

This thread has been educational in many ways.

Not least from the exchange, name-calling and abuse from people who supposedly share a common interest and come on here to share info, tips, findings and experiences.

I guess I'll just have to put this one down to experience.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

At the end of the day, listening IS the Olympic thing that matters. But expectation bias, environment, mood, equipment, room, processing, source etc etc make the human.ear a very unreliable tool which is why we need to be very careful, methodical & indeed scientific before claiming any perceived changes are real, valid, consistent & repeatable.

PS. Thanks BBB for the mini-troll-pic. Uncharacteristic I'd say.

 

[bigboss]

How many of those experiments have involved listening over the past 100 years?

You're right, I won't answer that one. Not only because clearly I can't even remotely give you a figure, but because it's so f---ing stupid I won't lower myself to it.

Without resorting to obscenities or hand-waving, I think the Major's point is that some basic facts about electronics don't require demonstration by listening -- the theory and associated measurements are enough.

?

That's fine, but the whole point of this thread is about listening.

Never have I said anything against scientific finding. All I've said is that I can hear a difference in the video. I was then faced with a barrage of narrative about 100 years of scientific findings, experiments and theory concerning the nature of electricity passing through a wire. All I asked was if any of that was specifically related to sound. - Is that unreasonable in any way?

Clearly, people can hear differences. Major himself said " I've recently binned a cheap headphone cable from china because it sounded pants".   So perhaps, just perhaps, theory and associated measurements aren't enough? Surely what we hear is what matters?

What's being said is that if you are hearing a difference it is for some other reason than supposed directionality of cables. That may be due to one or more of many reasons as already detailed, one of which could be that the whole thing is a con designed to fleece the gullible consumer. Do you find that notion impossible to accept? Is hifi the one area of sales where everyone is honest and above board? Rip offs happen in every other walk of life, why should audio be the exception?

I don't doubt for a moment that every industry has its charlatans and snake oil salesmen. But nobody on here has given me a reasonable explanation of why there's a difference in the video which is both perceptible when viewed and was obvious to the listeners at the Demo. Of course it's not proof of anything, but the effect is there and to suggest post processing of the video is frankly ridiculous as it doesn't explain the audiences reaction to it.?

 

I did, but you ignored my post. The answer lies in the video I posted.

 

[ellisdj]

Anyone who is going to have enough money to buy the Niagra - I dont think a fool is the right term for that person.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Anyone who is going to have enough money to buy the Niagra - I dont think a fool is the right term for that person.

I recon we can read this comment two ways ellisdj. Are u saying its far too expensive and a waste of money or that someone with that kinda money can not be foolish?

In the first case it might suggest that these kinds of products are a waste of money and we shouldn't be fooled into thinking these products are of value - but then can we trust this company at all? Or its advocate?

 

[Waxy]

Anderson & Cno. As much as I may value your contributions and comments and even enjoy an occasional 'funny'. I do find too many 'funnies' rather irritating even in this pathetic thread.

No offense and saying this in the expectation of a following barrage of same.

Amen.

 

[Native_bon]

Yes some of us heard differences in sound, but it means nothing. No prove of this in the video, it could be anything, & can only be based on the honesty of the person in Video.

This video here shows prove & measurements the other does not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

 

[Waxy]

*bomb*

 

[ellisdj]

Anyone who is going to have enough money to buy the Niagra - I dont think a fool is the right term for that person.

I recon we can read this comment two ways ellisdj. Are u saying its far too expensive and a waste of money or that someone with that kinda money can not be foolish?

In the first case it might suggest that these kinds of products are a waste of money and we shouldn't be fooled into thinking these products are of value - but then can we trust this company at all? Or its advocate?

Sorry Robin it was late I meant anyone with enough to afford it won't have that much by being a fool.

I also think someone like that is even less likely to part with it.

I don't see where there can be any con. No one is going to buy this without testing it out for them self.

 

[CnoEvil]

@ RobinK

I do not usually have a habit of derailing threads, but nothing new has been said in this thread for many pages. Nobody has changed their position and nothing has changed. Anything that may make one smle is a blessed relief and certainly better than the usual insults that are the norm in this type of thread.

BTW. Point taken......and no offence taken.

 

[cheeseboy]

I have also asked how many of the experiments conducted over the last 100 years involved listening, and not surprisingly, I'm still waiting for an answer.

there's plenty carried out by this lot as a starter for 10 http://www.aes.org/

for example, year long study which included hifi peeps, producers etc in to discovering if differences could be heard between high def and normal recordings http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195

 

[cheeseboy]

those that have watched it taking it seriously all heard a difference Even cheeseboy who hates me so he could have been personal about it but I appreciate his honesty

for the record, I don't hate you, I just happen to think that some of your beliefs are a bit bonkers and super contradictory in parts, which frustrates me at times, esepecially when you are being hypocritical about people having an open mind and not being rude, then you do it yourself. I don't have time for hate, and (no offence meant) but you're just some random on the internet, just as I am to you. However, I've no time for messing around and lying. Like I've said, I heard a difference. Does it mean I beleive in directional cables - no.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

From native-bon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

This is how videos should be made. Gareth - take note.

 

[ellisdj]

 those that have watched it taking it seriously all heard a difference Even cheeseboy who hates me so he could have been personal about it but I appreciate his honesty

for the record, I don't hate you, I just happen to think that some of your beliefs are a bit bonkers and super contradictory in parts, which frustrates me at times, esepecially when you are being hypocritical about people having an open mind and not being rude, then you do it yourself.  I don't have time for hate, and (no offence meant) but you're just some random on the internet, just as I am to you.  However, I've no time for messing around and lying.  Like I've said, I heard a difference.  Does it mean I beleive in directional cables - no.

Cheeseboy by that token your warming up to me - you must have tried the latest jplay demo and realised what i have been on about all this time

Sorry to be hypocritical I thought I always stood the same ground.

Bonkers ideas to some maybe but they have all added up to take my sq forwards in my eyes.

The other great thing I have overlooked so far in the thread - if wealthy people go out and buy new products like that niagra for example then they move their existing bits onto the used market.

That gives mere mortals a chance of owning champagne high lust products at more realistic lemonade cost. I am all for that.

 

[cheeseboy]

Cheeseboy by that token your warming up to me - you must have tried the latest jplay demo and realised what i have been on about all this time

touche sir

 

[ellisdj]

UFO's is a neat parallel to these discussions. Believers rely on others 'evidence' or experience whilst sceptics try to find holes in this evidence. The believers are never convinced of logic or alternate explainations wholefoods the sceptics offer other explainations and look at scientific or logical explaination.

It is impossible to prove that something does NOT exist yet proof that it DOES exist, whilst possible in a factual system, is never acheivable in a belief system.

So UFO believers see UFOs in all others 'evidence', the sceptics offer rational alternate explaination.

Can anyone PROVE UFOs don't exist? Ghosts exist? Fairies exist? Directional cables exist? NO. All it takes is ONE piece of solid evidence. One UFO. One ghost. One fairy. Nah not one. So maybe these things don't exist.

If you saw a video of a ufo at a hifi show would you belive it then.....? I can probably find you a few

Your link to the other video is true - its a much better video with excellent evidence and the guy apart from the starwars style beird is not offensive in anyway

However how would you sit 10 people down to show them how somehting sounds - would you show them scopes or pictures of digital waveforms in different graphical representations - or would you go lecture style.

Stand there and tell them about it - you could use slides - I was at uni when paper was given out with the slides on, doubt they do that now. Then ulitmately let them listen to it on and for contrast take it out or parts of it out as he does?

You could probably have a room at the show with all the test equipment out showing how the good the equipment you have manfufactures is- how technically perfect it is - thats actually not a bad idea. I have never seen anyone do - generally you sit down and listen to it.

I know this a twisting what your saying and I dont disagree with the difference you are highlighting in terms of him proving what he is saying by technical explanation and video to support . But hopefully you can see my point as well.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

@cheesboy

The advert link to the 3 website? Is that relevant, humour or error?

 

[ellisdj]

Cheeseboy by that token your warming up to me - you must have tried the latest jplay demo and realised what i have been on about all this time

touche sir

Your missing out 6.1 is a revelation - bit buggy atm but a revelation

 

[cheeseboy]

@cheesboy

The advert link to the 3 website? Is that relevant, humour or error?

sorry robin, not sure what you mean. I've just posted two links to the aes website. Is it on there?