Are we kidding ourselves?

CJSF

New member
May 25, 2011
251
1
0
Visit site
All this chopping and changing about . . . very expensive it can be too, the day of the purist has long gone . . . in truth I'm not sure it was ever here?

We faff about 'the sound as recorded' . . . are we kidding ourselves? The original recording was 'engineered' with banks of mixers, and dozens of sliders . . . What comes out is not how it started life.

Why not have a 'graphic equaliser' in the line at home . . . make life so much easier . . . set the sound to your mood :?

CJSF
 

Crocodile

New member
Jan 15, 2009
38
0
0
Visit site
In a similar vein, I can't help but wonder how for decades the hifi manufacturers have been telling us that the only way forward is separate boxes for everything. Keep everything isolated with it's own PSU.

Enter the streamer & now apparently the way forward is a streamer, amp, CDP, AM/FM & DAB/DAB+ all in the same box... :?
 

CJSF

New member
May 25, 2011
251
1
0
Visit site
altruistic.lemon said:
Not all of us chop and change about, mate.

True, but this site certainly get very hot, with individuals wanting to spend, spend, spend? and for what . . . 'a different sound'? . . . :wall:
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
2
0
Visit site
Crocodile said:
Enter the streamer & now apparently the way forward is a streamer, amp, CDP, AM/FM & DAB/DAB+ all in the same box... :?

Hardly: yes, there are streaming systems, but at the same time there's a growing number of streaming 'tuners' designed to be used with conventional separates systems.
 

Helmut80

New member
Jan 8, 2011
27
1
0
Visit site
I don't know why this self-flaggelation'what's the meaning of it all' question comes up time and again. Yes some people are compulsive box-swappers and never happy. Yes some people buy and stick with everything until it breaks. Most of us are somewhere in between.

Surely the same goes for every hobby. I love my vurrent motorbike. But there are another 5 on the market that I want to try currently. I am sure I will sell my current bike before it breaks. And these aren't all different bikes. Some of those on my list are the same kind, just slightly different. Same goes for my amp/speakers. *

*I realise that the hifi-vehicle analogy has many flaws
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
I've never particularly been a purist. For me it has mostly been about being able to enjoy the music, although the hi-fi bug has bitten and distracted me from this on too many occasions. When it has, and when I've been tempted to go down certain more highly lauded routes, it has resulted in me being unsettled and not being able to sit and really get into the music. Now I don't have a particularly purist system but I love listening to music again.

You are never going to get the sound as it was at the original 'performance'. There are too many steps in between. The very best you can hope for is to get as close as possible with as many of your recordings as you can. The absolute key, though, is being able to enjoy the music. Otherwise, what is the point?
 

Paul.

Well-known member
I used to be obsessed with getting the most out of my TT, there is a simple way of getting over upgrade-itus I found. Whenever I found myself listening to the Hi-Fi and not listening to music, I went away and did something else. Rode my bike, went to the pub, bake a cake. whatever you fancy. Leave it a day or so untill you really really miss listening to music, and when you come back, you should hear the music not the Hi-Fi.
 

chebby

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2008
1,253
26
19,220
Visit site
Crocodile said:
I can't help but wonder how for decades the hifi manufacturers have been telling us that the only way forward is separate boxes for everything. Keep everything isolated with it's own PSU.

And - for decades - people with bad memories of the typical 1970s 'music-centre' understood the reasoning for seperates.

The music-centre was full of hundreds of mechanical bits, all made very cheaply. A record player (with auto-start/auto-stop/auto-return mechanisms), cassette player (again, loads of cheap plastic and metal cogs, linkages, rubber belts etc.) and FM/AM tuners that were also very mechanical back then before the days of digital FM tuning modules.

So - in the 1970s and 1980s - spending more on a decent seperates system was a way of ensuring much better build quality, performance and reliability.

Today's 'all-in-one' and streaming/network systems (the new music-centres) are not dependent on 'moving parts' to anything like the same extent (with the exception of a few 'all-in-ones' containing a CD transport). There is not much to wear out or break and things like tuning modules and DACs are generic and cheap.

Even the switches and controls nowadays are completely electronic, unlike the 'piano key' style cassette controls typical of music-centres, or the thread and pulley tuning scales on FM tuners linked to 'ganged' capacitors like this.

Virtually everything in a modern all-in-one device is built of components that are commoditised, modularised, miniaturised, standardised, far cheaper, better performing and more reliable than anything available in the 1970s (especially the dreaded music-centres). So multi-task network/streaming/tuner/receivers are no longer 'hobbled' in their performance by having different functions in the same box.

I guess the benchmark of 'respectability' - for the all-in-one box - was set (for many seperates 'stalwarts') when Arcam Solos appeared and when Naim first launched their NaimUniti.
 

WinterRacer

New member
Jan 14, 2009
34
1
0
Visit site
chebby said:
Virtually everything in a modern all-in-one device is built of components that are commoditised, modularised, miniaturised, standardised, far cheaper, better performing and more reliable than anything available in the 1970s (especially the dreaded music-centres). So multi-task network/streaming/tuner/receivers are no longer 'hobbled' in their performance by having different functions in the same box.

I guess the benchmark of 'respectability' - for the all-in-one box - was set (for many seperates 'stalwarts') when Arcam Solos appeared and when Naim first launched their NaimUniti.

Totally agree with this post, a lot of current 'hang-ups' with hi-fi are routed in decades old issues. This post also reminded me of the shock at seeing the price of Naim's HDX mini PC. Nearly £5K if I remember rightly!
 

CJSF

New member
May 25, 2011
251
1
0
Visit site
Mmm . . . :? woke up with my cynical hat on this morning, sitting having my cornflakes . . . the question came to me 'why'. Ti's true, one will work hard to get the best out of the kit to hand. But once that has been achieved, why go any further??? I go back to the era that chebby sites, then into the 80's and early 90's. One went the separates route, to good effect I believe.

However I remember thinking around the late 90's when my Father was in to his 'music', that he was enjoying it via a very simple integrated Rotel amp, with base, treble and L-R balance. I also enjoyed listening with him, although my own hifi interests had long gone by then.

Dad passed away, his hifi was put in the loft, re discovered at the beginning of 2011. Since then I have been through a healing and re kindling experience. I wanted to re visit my 80's sound, valve separates, fancy TT/cartridge, preamp etc., big bucks. I look at 'now', having achieved the musical satisfaction of my 80's period, may be even better? . . . which I put down to better appreciation of the musical performance, a bit of maturity and no peer pressure.

However, having matched SQ, I look at 'what with'; an entry level integrated valve amp, fairly average TT/arm, a cartridge which is probably on a pare with my original SPU gold and speakers that are leftovers from my original system. Re starting my interest with Dads old Rotel 820 amp, I appreciated the base/treble control. The system has morphed into a modern but simple arrangement, that is every bit as good as the Audiophile setup of yesteryear.

Then I took this thinking a step further, modern SS can sound very good, recordings back into the 70's and before were always engineered, and tweaked. However, present day recording are IMHO over engineered? In fact, one would pose the question that; 'it is these modern recordings and some re releases that are poor, not so much the equipment they are applied to'?

So why cant things be simple, a one box answer plus a graphic equaliser or at worst base/treble control. Lets be fair, the true 1980's purist is a rare beast, as is a dodo? . . . I go along with simple, music is important, thats the problem, is modern music, 'music' . . . or so much engineered noise . . . ?

That is another question along the line, 'does the modern music warrant quality hifi'? We know it is so often manufactured . . . ?

. . . open ended . . . CJSF
 

altruistic.lemon

New member
Jul 25, 2011
64
0
0
Visit site
Yes, except you're a tweaker by nature. You'd last five minutes with a simple system. Of course, you could buy any amp and any speakers plus an LP12, which would give you simplicity with one component you could tweak away with to your heart's delight.

Seriously, mate, I think there was no golden age, it's nostalgia for lost youth, that's all.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
1
18,890
Visit site
Good answer Chebby.

Helmut80 said:
Yes some people are compulsive box-swappers and never happy. *

I wouldn't necessarily say that's true. Yes, some change because they're not happy, but I think you'l find there's a large number that enjoy themselves by actually changing their system. You might find these people even more happy than those happy non-changers :)
 

audioaddict

New member
Nov 1, 2011
114
0
0
Visit site
My current system cost me a small fortune but i was much happier with systems from days past ie technics pre power amp marantz ki sig cd player etc. A lot of the mags seem to tell us that just because technology has changed that must mean sound and build quality has to be bettet and i dont always think this is the case. I once owned a technics sea 2000 pre power amp that was stupendously good quality which i bought for five hundred that once retailed for nearly two k and stupidy sold it for what i have now i really wish id kept it the sound was more musical and the pride of ownership was tenfold to my current system. Id swap my kit for that stuff in a flash.
 

CJSF

New member
May 25, 2011
251
1
0
Visit site
altruistic.lemon said:
Yes, except you're a tweaker by nature. You'd last five minutes with a simple system. Of course, you could buy any amp and any speakers plus an LP12, which would give you simplicity with one component you could tweak away with to your heart's delight.

Seriously, mate, I think there was no golden age, it's nostalgia for lost youth, that's all.

I tweak to get best value for money, as I would do in any hobby I indulge in. As you say, I'm a tweaker by nature, can be frustrating, but I do get satisfaction when the thinking/tweaking pays off :bounce: . . .

Golden age . . . nostalgia may be a better description, however, it was a good time for me, happy in most things I did. These days, the age of the 'bus pass', its good to relive the past a little? Its the pleasure of not being under any pressure, although I do pressurise myself from time to time:?

The thought of 'simple' . . . I like simple, my existing system is very simple, I just make sure it is working to its best ability . . . I used to design and race aircraft, my simple designs were always at the top, it was the subtle innovations and tweaks that you 'could not see' that were the important bits. Over complicated, over design, is always a wast of time IMHO.

. . . 'less is more' . . . CJSF
 
CJSF said:
altruistic.lemon said:
Not all of us chop and change about, mate.

True, but this site certainly get very hot, with individuals wanting to spend, spend, spend? and for what . . . 'a different sound'? . . . :wall:

More and more separates are becoming less attractive to me. I can see a time, in the not too distant, where I'll sell up totally and just buy an all-in-one.

Today I've been to collect box loads of gear, including the rest of my record collection, from my sisters old house. I need to find an alternative solution to the CD thingy, but due to work and home comitments, I can't dedicate as much time as I'd like. Everything I do has to be done with [almost] military precision. Something will have to give!

As much as I love the Leema and the rest... todays events and recent family problems have to put things into stark perspective. In the grand scheme of things hi-fis aren't THAT important.

For as long as I can remember, I've always reiterated that hi-fis/music should be fun - a source of enjoyment where one can kick off their shoes after a long day and enjoy the sweet sounds.

No way would I class myself as a purist, but I know the sound I like. Moreover, the thought of an Arcam Solo or Uniti or Marantz CR-603 becomes far more tempting.

Back to the boxes...

Apologies for the melancholy post.
 

CJSF

New member
May 25, 2011
251
1
0
Visit site
FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Good answer Chebby.

Helmut80 said:
Yes some people are compulsive box-swappers and never happy. *

I wouldn't necessarily say that's true. Yes, some change because they're not happy, but I think you'l find there's a large number that enjoy themselves by actually changing their system. You might find these people even more happy than those happy non-changers :)

That was part of my original thinking FrankHarveyHiFi . . . would the 'happy box swappers' be just as happy with a 'Graphic Equaliser' . . . they can swap around from day to day if the mood took them. I think in this digital age, this is a much more practical idea than it might have been 20 years back? The desire for that last ounce of 'unadulterated?' performance, seems less important than 'the way something sounds' . . . these days ?

Just my observations over the past 12 months . . . CJSF
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
plastic penguin said:
CJSF said:
altruistic.lemon said:
Not all of us chop and change about, mate.

True, but this site certainly get very hot, with individuals wanting to spend, spend, spend? and for what . . . 'a different sound'? . . . :wall:

In the grand scheme of things hi-fis aren't THAT important.

For as long as I can remember, I've always reiterated that hi-fis/music should be fun - a source of enjoyment where one can kick off their shoes after a long day and enjoy the sweet sounds.

Never a truer word was spoken PP. I agree entirely.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
13
0
Visit site
I think part of the problem is that people want to be "told" what to buy....either by a magazine review, or by someone on a forum (who naturally will often recommend their own kit). This can stem from the mistaken view, that there is such a thing as a generic "good sound that fits all".

It's a tempting notion, that in theory does away with the protracted period needed for proper research and demoing.

As in many things in life, expediency all too often, seems to rule.
 
T

the record spot

Guest
I don't know about our kidding ourselves - I do know that I was kidding myself the more I went on buying this amp or that amp. A fruitless effort.

Then music accessibility changed, then my attitudes to how I could access music took a sharp left, first with an iPod Touch, then Spotify, then internet radio and so on. I moved house recently and my CDs and LPs took more time to move than anything else just about; never again.

The long and the short of it is that I now no longer want or need to have multiple boxes kicking around the place and all the attendant wires that go with them. I don't particularly want to lug around a bunch of CDs, many of which I might only listen to once or twice a year.

When Harman and Onkyo restarted the trend of putting DACs in integrated amps (Sony and Akai amongst others had done this in the 90s with some of theirs) I sat up and took notice. When network receivers started to appear I sat up even more. Finally, I landed the Onkyo I did below after six months of humming-and-hawing over whether to buy it and it's blown me away by how good it is.

I frequent the Steve Hoffman forum and there's a long running thread there for people to post shots of their systems. Some you would not believe; real high end stuff (in here there's the popular regulars but little else mostly - Arcam, Monitor Audio, B&W and a few others and a handful of models at that - RX6, BX2, occasionally the RS1, the 685 and so on to the point I imagine that an alien visiting this site would wonder if those companies ever made anything else...) but often tasteful setups of varying size too. Have a look, it's a good read (the thread is in the Hardware section and you don't need to register to view). In some cases though, it's mind-boggling. For the keen, there will be other threads where the rarely seen cable debates come to the fore from time to time...!

All that's left for my system now is to drop the unwanted CDs onto hard drive, sell or donate them, buy a backup hard drive (or possibly two) and use the excellent DAC in the Onkyo to play the WAV files that connects via the USB on the fascia. I'll hang on to any SACDs, boxsets I like (e.g. Dylan Mono box, Cash Unearthed, etc.) or favourite recordings. In the end, I imagine I'll keep it down to around 200 physical discs and several hundred on external hard drive, Spotify and web radio. I think the P3 will be going too as I've probably only played about five albums since I moved in here.
 

audioaddict

New member
Nov 1, 2011
114
0
0
Visit site
I think plastic is right well all end up with one box systems eventually. Im still thinking of getting a uniti the amount of cables and boxes are driving me nuts
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts