Interesting thing

stereoman

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Coming back to audio philosophy, the discrepancy between the actual real sound of the recorded music and what we get on our systems is huge. As said, I had few occasions in the past to compare some recording stuff in a studio with its reproduction in a home environment. Actually our systems show us not how close the reproduction to original recording is but more how far away it is from the original sound. Really so many HiFi users play music on their systems that give so differential sound when compared to each other yet so distant from the proper reproduction. Hence, my assumption that most Hifi systems are not designed to give the precise recording quality but to give a different sound of these recordings. Now to state it differently. The other day I had many occasions to have a listen to a master CD right after the studio recording on the spot. Later on, I had many occasions to play this CD at different home environments and each time I was taken aback how "far from the truth" it sounded. I came across many HiFi systems and still believe that the gist of the good music is being close to the monitor sound as soon as possible. For example , one of the best reproductions that I deem very truthful at home environment is on Cyrus amp with Leema Acoustics speakers ( sorry I could not resist ) Nick Caves' "No More Shall We Part" for example sounds so intimate and real, like you were sitting next to band. It is just an example that you do not need to spend thousands of pounds but you need to get or find somehow this so-hard-to-achieve system synergy which is also close to the studio sound. Of course there are thousands of other systems giving you this "close" feeling but most of them are simply so diverted from the original spirit of music. The music should evoke all the best in you, should move you, should be alive , should boost your mood, make you shiver if your system does not do it - then the music loses sense. That is why ( I think ) there is an introduction of new studio codec that will soon find its place at homes. Simply , because MOSTLY we do not get the real sound of the music. Some audiophiles claim that it is the gist of this hobby to pursue an infinite path of the perfect system but it should not be that way. Losing so much money alongside with component changing is not a funny experience. Everyone would like to buy once a good system that gives you a real sound. Yet it seems this is simply unachievable untill the companies start to think over how to introduce the studio sound at homes.
 

tino

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So if you played this same "master CD" in your home using nearfield studio monitors and sat close to them, it should be the same as in the studio?
 

stereoman

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tino said:
So if you played this same "master CD" in your home using nearfield studio monitors and sat close to them, it should be the same as in the studio?

With proper quality amplification and good quality monitor speakers - pretty much.
 

CnoEvil

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I have never been in a recording studio, so can't comment, only to say that listening to those who have, say that most of us would be shocked at how different it sounds.

When it comes to judging systems, what matters to me, is how close they get to real unmiked, acoustic music....which are sounds that I have experienced, by going to a lot of classical concerts (and playing in a school orchestra).....so piano, violin, soprano, cymbals, trumpet, acoustic guitar etc.

For me, this makes the best reference.
 

stereoman

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CnoEvil said:
I have never been in a recording studio, so can't comment, only to say that listening to those who have, say that most of us would be shocked at how different it sounds.

When it comes to judging systems, what matters to me, is how close they get to real unmiked, acoustic music....which are sounds that I have experienced, by going to a lot of classical concerts (and playing in a school orchestra).....so piano, violin, soprano, cymbals, trumpet, acoustic guitar etc.

For me, this makes the best reference.

It's more about the sound specifications of the studio. I'm not a sound engineer so please forgive me description but the studio sound has en enourmous clean, linear ( I believe ) frequency response and tonal balance. Making the sound extremely vivid "direct at your face", almost no latency, minimum noise, quick and dynamic. What important with the studio sound is, is the direct reproduction without any rolled-off frequency - what makes it simply close to the performer. Hence, conveying emotional aspects of the music. Whatever it may mean.
 

Gray

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I've worked in several live music venues, hearing music direct, via pa systems and from different monitors and headphones in control rooms - sounded OK, not least as there was no compression on the stuff I heard.

I'm not too disappointed though with the sound from my Cyrus / PMC gear. Biggest limitation for me, in the domestic environment is not being able to play at the necessary volume levels, unless I'm more deaf than I think.

(Once stood on a stage while RPO were rehearsing - no system will ever match that effortless quality).
 

stereoman

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Gray said:
I've worked in several live music venues, hearing music direct, via pa systems and from different monitors and headphones in control rooms - sounded OK, not least as there was no compression on the stuff I heard.

I'm not too disappointed though with the sound from my Cyrus / PMC gear. Biggest limitation for me, in the domestic environment is not being able to play at the necessary volume levels, unless I'm more deaf than I think.

(Once stood on a stage while RPO were rehearsing - no system will ever match that effortless quality).

Change of the speakers ? What Cyrus do you have ? 6 or 8 series ? 6 can be underpowered for some.
 

Gray

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Cyrus 8, PMC twenty 21. With the right music, no complaints. Bass could be deeper (but it's probably deep enough where my neighbours sit)

I'm not saying it doesn't go loud enough, just that I don't play it as loud as I'd like to.
 

stereoman

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Gray said:
Cyrus 8, PMC twenty 21. With the right music, no complaints. Bass could be deeper (but it's probably deep enough where my neighbours sit)

I'm not saying it doesn't go loud enough, just that I don't play it as loud as I'd like to.

Ok. Good you're glad at least.
 
In the summer of '93 I got an invitation to Abbey Road no 1. This was as a result of trying to introduce a US-based musician friend to Christopher Hogwood, to discuss harpsichord technique. His agent explained he'd love to meet us in breaks during a recording, if we didn't mind coming to Abbey Road!

He was recording the Mozart Horn Concertos with Anthony Halstead and his Academy of Ancient .Music orchestra. I was allowed into the monitoring room where they used B&W monitors, I guess the 800 series (the ones with the pods on top). John Dunkerley was the Engineer, and he kindly answered all my questions. We spent almost all day there, including canteen breaks

There was definitely a loss of impact between monitoring the live feed, and then hearing the replay. So I have to assume that was attributable to the digital tape recording. The most exciting bit was when the leaders of each section and the soloist crammed in to hear the replay, and decide if the take was good enough.

I still play the CD and have a good recollection of the experience whenever I hear it. I'd say that at home, everything is simply on a smaller scale. But just as you'd never confuse a cinema with real life, you can still have a pretty immersive experience -- and I'd say the same about decent audio at home.

More recently, nine days ago we went to Cardiff for the first heat of the Singer of the World competition in St Davids Hall. On Sunday, I heard the live Radio 3 relay of the final at home, and had no difficulty recognising the hall sound and the singers. I was totally engrossed.
 

Infiniteloop

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nopiano said:
In the summer of '93 I got an invitation to Abbey Road no 1. This was as a result of trying to introduce a US-based musician friend to Christopher Hogwood, to discuss harpsichord technique. His agent explained he'd love to meet us in breaks during a recording, if we didn't mind coming to Abbey Road!

He was recording the Mozart Horn Concertos with Anthony Halstead and his Academy of Ancient .Music orchestra. I was allowed into the monitoring room where they used B&W monitors, I guess the 800 series (the ones with the pods on top). John Dunkerley was the Engineer, and he kindly answered all my questions. We spent almost all day there, including canteen breaks

There was definitely a loss of impact between monitoring the live feed, and then hearing the replay. So I have to assume that was attributable to the digital tape recording. The most exciting bit was when the leaders of each section and the soloist crammed in to hear the replay, and decide if the take was good enough.

I still play the CD and have a good recollection of the experience whenever I hear it. I'd say that at home, everything is simply on a smaller scale. But just as you'd never confuse a cinema with real life, you can still have a pretty immersive experience -- and I'd say the same about decent audio at home.

More recently, nine days ago we went to Cardiff for the first heat of the Singer of the World competition in St Davids Hall. On Sunday, I heard the live Radio 3 relay of the final at home, and had no difficulty recognising the hall sound and the singers. I was totally engrossed.

St David's Hall has very good acoustics. I have very fond memories of listening to many classical concerts and recitals there when I was a student doing my MA.
 

Gray

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Mark Rose-Smith said:
I must say Gray that I'm pretty impressed with the level of bass that pmc managed from the twenty 21's..if it's a good production and has bass the little monitors do a great job but feed them something a bit on the lean side and it'll sound so.

You're right Mark, they are true to the source, for such small speakers bass is certainly present when it needs to be. I'd always trade ultimate depth of bass for the speed and tunefulness that we get. In all respects they're the best speakers I've owned (previously had various (cheaper) UK brands)
 

Gaz37

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That even the studio master will sound different to how the instruments & vocals actually sounded at the point of performance?

As I understand the studio recording process each musician plays their instument/vocal independntly and the engineer "mixes" them as he sees fit?

As for live performances I am invariably disappointed by the sound quality at live venues, mainly rock bands, where in my experience sheer volume is all that appears to matter, one of the worst was Alice Cooper a few yaers ago where all I could hear was noise, it was even difficult to indentify what song was being performed. The best was easily Brit Floyd where the sound quality was simply faultless, as was the performance.
 

jjbomber

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Gaz37 said:
That even the studio master will sound different to how the instruments & vocals actually sounded at the point of performance?

I have sat backstage with a couple of musicians warming up, and even that sounds different to the PA, which sounds different to the studio, which sounds different to the home hi-fi. Which is right? Does it matter?

I've been to Rockfield Studios in Monmouth, the Sandra Ward version. Black Sabbath had been there 2 weeks before recording an album before going to the USA to engineer it. They had done an interview the week before stating that they wouldn;t be releasing any more albums, just to ramp up the hype for another album. Ironically the album wasn't released, just 2 tracks at the end of the Reunion album.
 

chris_bates1974

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Gaz37 said:
That even the studio master will sound different to how the instruments & vocals actually sounded at the point of performance?

As I understand the studio recording process each musician plays their instument/vocal independntly and the engineer "mixes" them as he sees fit?

As for live performances I am invariably disappointed by the sound quality at live venues, mainly rock bands, where in my experience sheer volume is all that appears to matter, one of the worst was Alice Cooper a few yaers ago where all I could hear was noise, it was even difficult to indentify what song was being performed. The best was easily Brit Floyd where the sound quality was simply faultless, as was the performance.

I am often disappointed in live music. I tend to find that the vocal track is far too quiet. Best show I've been too for great vocals would be Erasure in 2011 and Franz Ferdinand were pretty good around 10/12 years ago . Worst would be Iron Maiden last month. The sound was awful. Great show, but awful sound. Placebo were much much better around five months before, and in the same venue....

just bought the Placebo Unplugged on double vinyl. What an amazing record, and beautifully recorded. But, and it's a big BUT, I have had to brush it several times to remove surface noice like I've never heard before....
 

ellisdj

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Out of curiosity did you sit in the same seat both times?

Was the poor sound due to where you was sitting each time in relation to the PA.

Just asking out of curiosity?
 

Gaz37

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ellisdj said:
Out of curiosity did you sit in the same seat both times?

Was the poor sound due to where you was sitting each time in relation to the PA.

Just asking out of curiosity?

I was in a better position for Alice Cooper (pretty central and 20m from the stage) than I was for Brit Floyd.

Cooper's speaker arrays were mahoosive too compared to Brit Floyd's, I'm fairly sure AC's was just being pushed too hard
 

MajorFubar

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The problem is there's not one version of the truth. The most neutral hifi system in the world in the best treated room won't necessarily make it sound like the live performance, it can only ever reproduce the sound of the master without coloration. That itself might be lightyears away from the sound of the actual live performance. It all depends what sound the producers intended. Probably less so with classical and jazz than with pop/rock.
 

ellisdj

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Gaz37 said:
ellisdj said:
Out of curiosity did you sit in the same seat both times?

Was the poor sound due to where you was sitting each time in relation to the PA.

Just asking out of curiosity?

I was in a better position for Alice Cooper (pretty central and 20m from the stage) than I was for Brit Floyd.

Cooper's speaker arrays were mahoosive too compared to Brit Floyd's, I'm fairly sure AC's was just being pushed too hard
Fair play.

I was only asking as I was listening to some poop pa systems last week with one sounding much better up close.
 

chris_bates1974

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ellisdj said:
Out of curiosity did you sit in the same seat both times?

Was the poor sound due to where you was sitting each time in relation to the PA.

Just asking out of curiosity?

For the Placebo gig I was stage left, to the side of the arena and fairly near the front, and for the Iron Maiden gig, I was exactly in the middle on the very back row. Iron Maiden was just far too loud, so the vocals kept clipping. Such a shame, as they were really good.
 

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