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Are we fooling ourselves?

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Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
Going off on a slight tangent.

If you're at a live performance do you actually "hear" that the backing singers are behind the band?
I've never considered that before, the sound is coming from a bloody great speaker array each side of the stage.
So is what we hear at home actually better than the live performance?
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
2
18,545
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
Electro said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion. 
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
Thanks for the offer but it's quite a bit out of my way lol.
 

Electro

Well-known member
Mar 30, 2011
43
2
18,545
Gaz37 said:
Are live gigs even in stereo?
I think so yes, we have two ears and are able to pinpoint different sounds from comming from different directions and estimate the distance and position of the noise.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
3
0
Gaz37 said:
Going off on a slight tangent.

If you're at a live performance do you actually "hear" that the backing singers are behind the band? I've never considered that before, the sound is coming from a bloody great speaker array each side of the stage. So is what we hear at home actually better than the live performance?
It's often far more produced, though to be fair a lot of work goes into producing live sound as well.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Gaz37 said:
Going off on a slight tangent.

If you're at a live performance do you actually "hear" that the backing singers are behind the band? I've never considered that before, the sound is coming from a bloody great speaker array each side of the stage. So is what we hear at home actually better than the live performance?
I believe they are less well amplified giving the impression they are further away. Always remember backing singers are not necessarily behind the group in many circumstances.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
91
45
18,570
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
Hi,

For cables, the manufacturers do not have men in white coats, completing detailed materials science research, running endless tests, using the latest scientific equipment with the best performance, examining the crystal structure of the copper under an electron microscope, analysing the quantum effects of every material that constitutes a cable, etc., etc., etc.

With all other aspects of the hifi chain, there are books to read, and degrees to take to educate yourself in their design and manufacturing, technical papers to read and review.

So, in some areas of Hifi, we are being fooled. With regards to sound perception, then it is subjective, and I am not sure whether we are being fooled.

Regards,

Shadders.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Gaz37 said:
Electro said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
Thanks for the offer but it's quite a bit out of my way lol.
You might also consider those speakers that are fitted with side-firing or even rear-facing drivers..... more trickery.. :)
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
Al ears said:
Gaz37 said:
Electro said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
Thanks for the offer but it's quite a bit out of my way lol.
You might also consider those speakers that are fitted with side-firing or even rear-facing drivers..... more trickery.. :)
And of course dipoles.

Soundstaging is all about the dispersion characteristics of the speakers, the setup and the room.

The finest soundstage(s) I have heard, have been produced by big dipole panels, old Magneplanars, Martin Logan, Quads etc. Some box speakers, mostly US designs, have rear firing drivers, arranded as dipoles or bipoles, others mount drivers on separate sub baffles or use waveguides to control dispersion.

There are lots of ways to optimise a speaker for this aspect of performance, remember though, this is just one aspect of speaker design, other factors are important too.
 

jmjones

Well-known member
Mar 8, 2009
49
12
18,545
I'd suggest a good home system beats a PA live performance just about all of the time.

The better comparison is taking a listen to a live performance with no amps or speakers involved. Can your ears hear where everybody is then? Absolutely, and that's what I'd like my system to be able to represent.

if I remember rightly Acoustic Research used to promote their speakers with "Live vs. Recorded" events. More recently Steinway Lyngdorf have pulled off similar demos with their speakers and pianos.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
267
60
10,970
I do not think we are fooling are self's I have albums like Pink Floyd dark side of the moon which is a very good example of how good a soundstage can be .

yes it's a trick of sorts but a bloody good one and I have one album where you can hear the battle cry's in the distance and then horses come past like they are coming past in your living room and the 2 armies clashing together in the middle .

personally I think the sound stage is done in the recording studio like movies were they uses coding like Dolby digital but in 2 channel sound to go and what direction and the rest is a good hifi setup that will make the soundstage any good in the first place .

but if you want your music to sound like 7.1 Dolby digital your not going to get that I do not think in 2 channel music . Yes in music dvds were the live concert is coded in 7.1 or above your hear the crowd behind you and the stage in front of you .
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
Gaz37 said:
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
Where is that manufacturers are saying, "buy our product, it's so good you'll not only hear stuff coming from the speakers, but you'll be hearing things coming from behind your head too!"

I don't see anywhere manufacturers are making any claims about thepree dimensional soundtaging. Don't forget that none of us live in an anechoic chamber, so our rooms will be reflecting sound around the room which contributes towards this three dimensional effect.
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
Gaz37 said:
I understand that sound will radiate from the rear of the speaker but what I don't understand is, for the purpose of soundstage,how it is possible to control exactly what sound radiates backwards? Say the sound engineer wants to make a backing vocal (only) to sound as though it coming from behind the speaker.
Place the microphone further away from the backing singers. Closely mic a singer and they'll sound like they're in the foreground - move the mic further away, and even add a little bit of reverb in post production, and they'll sound further away.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
davidf said:
Gaz37 said:
Are live gigs even in stereo?
We hear everything in stereo - whether the source is in mono is another matter. If you stick one finger in one of your ears, that's mono.
Sorry, what meant is, if you're lucky enough to be in the centre of the audience exactly the same sound come from each speaker array?
 

Frank Harvey

Well-known member
Jun 27, 2008
567
0
18,890
Gaz37 said:
Sorry, what meant is, if you're lucky enough to be in the centre of the audience exactly the same sound come from each speaker array?
I usually stand near to the central section at gigs where the lights and sound are controlled from (in theory should be the best sound balance). I've never been aware of any live gigs in stereo. The only gig I was at where I was aware of discreet channels was a Chris Rea gig (I was working at the NEC at the time), and Road To Hell had the sound effects from the beginning of the track coming from some rear speakers. I'm sure other artists might've done something similar, but it's rare, as it's usually about volume.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
davidf said:
Gaz37 said:
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
Where is that manufacturers are saying, "buy our product, it's so good you'll not only hear stuff coming from the speakers, but you'll be hearing things coming from behind your head too!"

I don't see anywhere manufacturers are making any claims about thepree dimensional soundtaging. Don't forget that none of us live in an anechoic chamber, so our rooms will be reflecting sound around the room which contributes towards this three dimensional effect.
That's a good point, the manufacturers say very little about their products.
If I wantedto be cynical I could suggest that's because they couldn't prove such claims?
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
Al ears said:
Gaz37 said:
Electro said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion. 
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
Thanks for the offer but it's quite a bit out of my way lol.
You might also consider those speakers that are fitted with side-firing or even rear-facing drivers.....   more trickery..  :)
True, but again is it possible to only have certain sounds or instruments coming from the side or rear drivers or will be everything?
I guess the crossover can seperate certain frequencies but can they go as far certain instruments or effects?
 

manicm

Well-known member
May 1, 2008
557
42
18,920
Gaz37 said:
Al ears said:
Gaz37 said:
Electro said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
Gaz37 said:
Gazzip said:
manicm said:
@MajorFubar - why are you resorting to obscenities? And anyway 'Binaural audio' just seems another variation of Q Sound.
I think perhaps because the OP's circuitously negativistic behaviour is specifically "designed" to illicit such a reaction. Shame he just won.
That genuinely isn't the case, unfortunately it is difficult to express a contradiction or to question a response in a written format without sounding argumentative.
Yes, but you asked a series of question (including one about cables which is NEVER divisive) and then, with an increasingly negative tone, answered them from your own preconceived perspective over several posts. Looks argumentative from where I am typing.

Notwithstanding the above, and assuming you were trying to have a positive discussion, I am confused by your point re. 2-channel stereo being a psychological trick, and find myself wondering why you would care? Afterall, from the moment a sound is recorded its playback becomes an illusion.
I think the point I'm trying to make is that we are paying large sums of money for equipment that we believe to be doing something that it can't possibly be doing. Are we being conned by manufacturers, pseudo scientists and reviwers into (genuinely) believing we hear things that just cannot be there? I'm beginning to believe we are
No absolutely not .

If you are ever in Essex not far from junction 30 of the M25 then you are welcome to pop in and I will prove it to you beyond doubt, it will only take about 30 seconds of your time to be convinced but you are welcome to listen for longer if you like .*biggrin*
Thanks for the offer but it's quite a bit out of my way lol.
You might also consider those speakers that are fitted with side-firing or even rear-facing drivers..... more trickery.. :)
True, but again is it possible to only have certain sounds or instruments coming from the side or rear drivers or will be everything? I guess the crossover can seperate certain frequencies but can they go as far certain instruments or effects?
Gaz, some without much patience like MajorFubar can easily lose their top, understandably. Just go and listen to some systems. When I had my 685s in my system the sound gave the impression of being especially tall, wide and somewhat deep too. Of-course some of that may have been due to freebie side effects of the walls and positioning. It wasn't particularly ideal either - I had unequal positioning from side walls (left was a cupboard, right was a window), about 20 cm from rear walls (from the rear edge of speakers), but when I spun Goldfrapp's Felt Mountain or John Cale's Music For A New Society the effects were pretty spectacular.

Now before someone else loses it...
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
Has anybody got, or have access to, The Wall by Pink Floyd?
Another Brick in the Wall part2 has a helecopter in the intro, I've listened to this on my system through both speakers and headphones and also on my wife's boss's megabuck Naim, Linn and Moon system.
All I hear is the helicopter starting off quiet then getting louder in the left speaker then move to the right. I don't hear it approach from anywhere other than the left speaker nor do I have any sense of altitude or distance.

What do you hear?
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
739
298
5,270
What part of the country are you in? My system might be inexpensive in comparison to others but the stereo effect is good to my ears. If you'd to visit let me know. I'm in Sheffield area.
 

Gaz37

Well-known member
Sep 23, 2014
58
0
10,540
insider9 said:
What part of the country are you in? My system might be inexpensive in comparison to others but the stereo effect is good to my ears. If you'd to visit let me know. I'm in Sheffield area.
Bristol, so not very local lol.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
739
298
5,270
Gaz37 said:
insider9 said:
What part of the country are you in? My system might be inexpensive in comparison to others but the stereo effect is good to my ears. If you'd to visit let me know. I'm in Sheffield area.
Bristol, so not very local lol.
Nice, you have an amazing opportunity to go to the show that's starting tomorrow. I wish it was closer to me.
 

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