What about the walls?

[Twiiit]

Hello!

Long story short.

If someone have some pointers please tell me, my setup is driving me crazy.

Allright first I lived in an appartment with concrete walls and one opening with no door between the tv and the left speaker. the sound was perfect. Clean and tight.

Then we moved to a house that we was renting. One brick wall behind the sofa. Rest was drywall i beleve with two openings with no doors, one on the right Wall and one on the left one. Sound was superb.

Now we decided to buy a farm with an old house there we live. I belived the house is from 1900 century and ist drywall all over. Anyway my speakers dont work here. The sound is completly off. I have tryed everything. Them are standing in the corners with the tv in the middle.
I have tryed to play around with diffrent angles, diffrent distance between wall and speaker. Toe in. I've even tried to putting them in the corners behind the sofa. tried behind the tv, no success at all, no sweetspot.

Ill been listening to a special kind of sequens in a song in all three plases there I have been living. And in this house its like i have put on phase the the bas, lika a subwoofer you can phase 180 degrees.

If the sequens is say 10 seconds. I use to have the first 5 seconds with really good bas. and now i feel the first 5 seconds in the furniture but i dont hear the bas as I used to.

My system is two Klipsch rp8000F, Tellurium q ultra blue II cables, a Bluesound node N130 as the streamer and a Sansui AU-X701 as amp.

Ill send some drawings so you can see, Those are on my new livingroom. (second drawing, ill tried this if the door openings was the problem, then i could move the tv and sofa, but no success)

I forget the measurements on the room yesterday when i was drawing this. i can provide this later.

Is there anything i can do? reinforce the walls? doubble drywall? MDF?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Roog]

I’m afraid it’s much more likely to be the room dimensions that is causing your issue than the construction.

Your room does look quite square which will reinforce the resonant frequency set by the room dimensions.

My suggestion would be to try room EQ wizard (REW,) you can connect a microphone to your PC, load up the free to use software and it will give you a good understanding of what is happening in your room. You can even use the room simulator, no mic required and it will give you an indication of what is going on and you can change your layout in the sim to see what effect it has at your listening position. In my case I was surprised at how sensitive my bass peak was to my listening position and yet how little effect the position (given the limitations of my room) of my speakers made in solving the peak.

I found it very helpful in understanding my room. The solution for me was to apply targeted Parametric EQ

 

[Fandango Andy]

Firstly sit back and get used to it. All rooms sound different. How much of the problem is the room sounds poor, and how much is it just different to what you are used to?

View 1 looks like the best option in theory.
Try pulling the speakers further from the wall. Depending on what the speakers are they are going to be at their best somewhere from 10 to 36 inches from the wall. Then have a play with your toe in.

Given from what you have said, it sounds like you have a lot of harder surfaces. You probably need to soften your room up. This could be rugs, carpets, and soft furnishings. It could however be actual room treatments.

 

[Twiiit]

I’m afraid it’s much more likely to be the room dimensions that is causing your issue than the construction.

Your room does look quite square which will reinforce the resonant frequency set by the room dimensions.

My suggestion would be to try room EQ wizard (REW,) you can connect a microphone to your PC, load up the free to use software and it will give you a good understanding of what is happening in your room. You can even use the room simulator, no mic required and it will give you an indication of what is going on and you can change your layout in the sim to see what effect it has at your listening position. In my case I was surprised at how sensitive my bass peak was to my listening position and yet how little effect the position (given the limitations of my room) of my speakers made in solving the peak.

I found it very helpful in understanding my room. The solution for me was to apply targeted Parametric EQ

Thank you for your response!

Bluesound node N130 is suppose to get room calibartion this summer. Do you think this will solve my problem? I can wait for this update if you think it will work for me. The mic for my bluesound will cost about $59 and Dirac software about $159 with limit frequency range (20Hz-500Hz) and $249 with full range (20Hz-20kHz).
Worth the money?

Advantages of buing Dirac to my bluesound is that it will do a correction of the EQ in my Bluesound. Right now i dont have an EQ option in the app.. Do you think i can use the mic to my bluesound is good enough for REW?

I dont have a suitable mic for this kind of measurement, but I can buy one! any one you would recommend?

Thank you again for your respons ant tips.

 

[Stuart83]

Maybe it's your distances.

I've been absent awhile from the site due to illness and also jumping down the vast rabbit hole of trying to correct a room that's way to small for the speakers I use.

I've always preferred floor standers for two main reasons.

One as people know I only do music on the exciting side of the dial.
Two I've only ever found floor standers offer such volumes comfortably (whilst retaining quality)
It's just a personal preference and not to provoke a debate 😊

Sure I've djayed yrs both for fun and for a part time so have the super loud makies etc but it's just not a hifi sound to me, anyway I digress but I have what are nearly 4ft floor standers in a comparable tiny room that just happens to be my main listening room (a main bedroom I've taken hostage really 😆)
The hifi that took ages to find through the regular process of demos and in-between systems etc particularly the Fayne speakers that would regularly cause me to feel genuine frisson is now totally overpowering the room.

The main problem is the distance from the speakers being so close and the listening position being as best as makes no difference to my head resting against the rear wall.

The dimensions of the room are odd along with it having alcoves adding editional booming which was immediately solved with sliding wardrobe doors on runners, but still my stubbornness to not part with the large speakers I love means the obvious fix of swapping to bookshelf speakers is out of the question.

It's never gone well in the past despite some of the best speakers I've heard being large bookshelf speakers.

Not me 😆 I decided to throw room treatments at the entire room after Dirac and the knowing how to use it failed.
I'm not a fan of room correction software bandaids and messing around with phasing but as mentioned by another poster rew is a good way of identifying the problem.

I found wall treatments not soundproofing which are often mistaken for the same thing was the only fix.
The vibrations bouncing off the walls where causing an almost flat overloaded sound devoid of the texture I so much love.
Kind of like a loud pa speaker ear shatteringly loud yet sterile.

The bass was different although very much there yet it sounded almost thin where it was needed and window flexing where it wasn't.

Some others have found some speakers have the illusion of lackluster bass when too close other than the obvious.

Can someone please explain why 'the bass' sounds better further away

I'm not stupid, many may argue that statement but I've got letters behind my name should I choose to use them (I think and they don't all end in T?) I'm a member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers don't ya know.....which means I can go and sit in the library at Birdcage Walk should I take t...

www.basschat.co.uk

If you've been through the obvious positional swaps and are not wanting to swap to more suited kit then it leaves acoustic room treatments as your only viable venture.

Obviously do the head slap check of making sure your speakers aren't out of phase.
It's easy done either the wires muddled up at the amp or speakers or indeed anything else.

I kept costs down by doing it myself but it's well within the capabilities of a diyer.

Most people never think of factoring in room treatments with their hifi budget neither did I but that all changes when you get a acoustically bad one.

It cost me about the same as my system deck record player and brought the dramatic and instant improvement only a swap in speakers would bring at a higher cost.

I see it as future proofing the room for any other HI-FI'S that come without having to compromise for suitability.

 

[Twiiit]

Firstly sit back and get used to it. All rooms sound different. How much of the problem is the room sounds poor, and how much is it just different to what you are used to?

View 1 looks like the best option in theory.
Try pulling the speakers further from the wall. Depending on what the speakers are they are going to be at their best somewhere from 10 to 36 inches from the wall. Then have a play with your toe in.

Given from what you have said, it sounds like you have a lot of harder surfaces. You probably need to soften your room up. This could be rugs, carpets, and soft furnishings. It could however be actual room treatments.

Thank you for your response!

Allright so i should try to place them side by side in front of my tv?

My plan was to buy sound absorbents and place them in the room, but now when I experiences that i dont have the bas iam use to have maby i should reconsider? I dont see how they will give me a better sweetspot?

I guess it was just luck the first times i placed my speakers in the other rooms. I dont know anything about acustics or anything, thank you for telling me!

 

[Stuart83]

Thank you for your response!

Bluesound node N130 is suppose to get room calibartion this summer. Do you think this will solve my problem? I can wait for this update if you think it will work for me. The mic for my bluesound will cost about $59 and Dirac software about $159 with limit frequency range (20Hz-500Hz) and $249 with full range (20Hz-20kHz).
Worth the money?

Advantages of buing Dirac to my bluesound is that it will do a correction of the EQ in my Bluesound. Right now i dont have an EQ option in the app.. Do you think i can use the mic to my bluesound is good enough for REW?

I dont have a suitable mic for this kind of measurement, but I can buy one! any one you would recommend?

Thank you again for your respons ant tips.

Thank you for your response!

Bluesound node N130 is suppose to get room calibartion this summer. Do you think this will solve my problem? I can wait for this update if you think it will work for me. The mic for my bluesound will cost about $59 and Dirac software about $159 with limit frequency range (20Hz-500Hz) and $249 with full range (20Hz-20kHz).
Worth the money?

Advantages of buing Dirac to my bluesound is that it will do a correction of the EQ in my Bluesound. Right now i dont have an EQ option in the app.. Do you think i can use the mic to my bluesound is good enough for REW?

I dont have a suitable mic for this kind of measurement, but I can buy one! any one you would recommend?

Thank you again for your respons ant tips.

Any UMIK
You can usually find them second have on ebay

 

[Twiiit]

Maybe it's your distances.

I've been absent awhile from the site due to illness and also jumping down the vast rabbit hole of trying to correct a room that's way to small for the speakers I use.

I've always preferred floor standers for two main reasons.

One as people know I only do music on the exciting side of the dial.
Two I've only ever found floor standers offer such volumes comfortably (whilst retaining quality)
It's just a personal preference and not to provoke a debate 😊

Sure I've djayed yrs both for fun and for a part time so have the super loud makies etc but it's just not a hifi sound to me, anyway I digress but I have what are nearly 4ft floor standers in a comparable tiny room that just happens to be my main listening room (a main bedroom I've taken hostage really 😆)
The hifi that took ages to find through the regular process of demos and in-between systems etc particularly the Fayne speakers that would regularly cause me to feel genuine frisson is now totally overpowering the room.

The main problem is the distance from the speakers being so close and the listening position being as best as makes no difference to my head resting against the rear wall.

The dimensions of the room are odd along with it having alcoves adding editional booming which was immediately solved with sliding wardrobe doors on runners, but still my stubbornness to not part with the large speakers I love means the obvious fix of swapping to bookshelf speakers is out of the question.

It's never gone well in the past despite some of the best speakers I've heard being large bookshelf speakers.

Not me 😆 I decided to throw room treatments at the entire room after Dirac and the knowing how to use it failed.
I'm not a fan of room correction software bandaids and messing around with phasing but as mentioned by another poster rew is a good way of identifying the problem.

I found wall treatments not soundproofing which are often mistaken for the same thing was the only fix.
The vibrations bouncing off the walls where causing an almost flat overloaded sound devoid of the texture I so much love.
Kind of like a loud pa speaker ear shatteringly loud yet sterile.

The bass was different although very much there yet it sounded almost thin where it was needed and window flexing where it wasn't.

Some others have found some speakers have the illusion of lackluster bass when too close other than the obvious.

Can someone please explain why 'the bass' sounds better further away

I'm not stupid, many may argue that statement but I've got letters behind my name should I choose to use them (I think and they don't all end in T?) I'm a member of the Institute of Mechanical Engineers don't ya know.....which means I can go and sit in the library at Birdcage Walk should I take t...

www.basschat.co.uk

If you've been through the obvious positional swaps and are not wanting to swap to more suited kit then it leaves acoustic room treatments as your only viable venture.

Obviously do the head slap check of making sure your speakers aren't out of phase.
It's easy done either the wires muddled up at the amp or speakers or indeed anything else.

I kept costs down by doing it myself but it's well within the capabilities of a diyer.

Most people never think of factoring in room treatments with their hifi budget neither did I but that all changes when you get a acoustically bad one.

It cost me about the same as my system deck record player and brought the dramatic and instant improvement only a swap in speakers would bring at a higher cost.

I see it as future proofing the room for any other HI-FI'S that come without having to compromise for suitability.

Thank you for responding!

That about the wall treatment you spok of? i shoud read this more carfully and write a better response, im was just curious about the wall treatment! 🙂

 

[Roog]

Thank you for your response!

Bluesound node N130 is suppose to get room calibartion this summer. Do you think this will solve my problem? I can wait for this update if you think it will work for me. The mic for my bluesound will cost about $59 and Dirac software about $159 with limit frequency range (20Hz-500Hz) and $249 with full range (20Hz-20kHz).
Worth the money?

Advantages of buing Dirac to my bluesound is that it will do a correction of the EQ in my Bluesound. Right now i dont have an EQ option in the app.. Do you think i can use the mic to my bluesound is good enough for REW?

I dont have a suitable mic for this kind of measurement, but I can buy one! any one you would recommend?

Thank you again for your respons ant tips.

I have yet to see how bluesound will implement Dirac so it is hard to say, but from what i have seen of it it should be helpful at dealing with the main issues.

I gave up on room treatment because of the expense and the impact it would have on my living space. To implement room treatment you still need to do the analysis .

I use a reasonably competent UMIK 1 microphone with my laptop running REW a solution recommended to me by our professional acoustics team. They have an uncluttered view on HiFi enthusiasts who will change everything except sort out the big issue, the room acoustics.

My logic is, figure out what the problem is, using a tool like REW, then decide how you want to treat it. There are people who don't like DSP solutions like Dirac and there are people like me that don't have any other practical choice.

 

[Twiiit]

I have yet to see how bluesound will implement Dirac so it is hard to say, but from what i have seen of it it should be helpful at dealing with the main issues.

I gave up on room treatment because of the expense and the impact it would have on my living space. To implement room treatment you still need to do the analysis .

I use a reasonably competent UMIK 1 microphone with my laptop running REW a solution recommended to me by our professional acoustics team. They have an uncluttered view on HiFi enthusiasts who will change everything except sort out the big issue, the room acoustics.

My logic is, figure out what the problem is, using a tool like REW, then decide how you want to treat it. There are people who don't like DSP solutions like Dirac and there are people like me that don't have any other practical choice.

Yes blusound and dirac.. I guess im forced to use dirac in my bluesound? i saw some youtube videos and its lika a button in the bluesound app who says "dirac live", and I dont think we can manipulate the EQ in bluesound and use/put in the adjustments i get from REW. im i wrong?

As you suggested erlier that i should download REW and do some room simulations before i get a mic, well i did and i have tried to move my speakers to a better location but im verry new to this software and it sounded a bit diffrent. i tried to move my speakers so i can hear 40-60Hz but no success, i think its becaus its two doorholes allmost behind the bas reflex port. I have to learn the software and maybe i can implement doors and windows.

 

[abacus]

Re-reading the post (Assuming the speakers are not connected out of phase) I don't think its room reflections that are causing the problem, I think it is the opposite, in that the room is too dead (Acting more like an anechoic chamber effect) and it needs more in it to reflect some of the sound to make it livelier.
Try adding some hard surfaces (Mirrors etc.) and removing any rugs or heavy curtains etc. to see if this reduces your problem.

Bill

 

[Twiiit]

Hello Bill!

The room is clean from curtains and stuff. The only thing in this room is the sofa. But that was exactly my thought aswell! It seems like the bas from 40-60Hz is gone.

Thats why i would like to reinforce the walls with double drywall or mdf then drywall. Make the surface harder.

 

[Stuart83]

Hello Bill!

The room is clean from curtains and stuff. The only thing in this room is the sofa. But that was exactly my thought aswell! It seems like the bas from 40-60Hz is gone.

Thats why i would like to reinforce the walls with double drywall or mdf then drywall. Make the surface harder.

It does indeed sound very similar to what happend to me hence your post caught my eye, you having a doorways each end of the same wall as I do is something else adds to the similarities of your problem.
I do also agree with "twinkletoes" you might benefit from taking more detailed measurements with a separate mic.
Obviously familiarising yourself with rew or the like as you have been will improve your result.

(The UMIK I suggested way back in the comments is sufficient to collect the necessary data)

I'm not suggesting you carry out any work until your fully happy you've identifed your problem but can tell you what worked for me in a similar situation.

As said I have large fyne floorstanders and after a long journey of demoes and in-between systems etc (tbh im always in-between systems ) i wouldn't let an odd shaped room on the small side (I'm unsure of your dimensions size etc) that became their home after I moved my main setup to another room have me back into the world of bookshelf speakers as good as they can be (and they can be hair raising on the back of the neck good) irrespective I have a habit of blowing them up playing way over their comfort levels.

In my case I ended up with an overloaded room.

Paradoxically you would think being a smaller room would cause bigger speakers etc to be louder but it can have the adverse effect by sapping bass and overloading the treble on occasions.

I djay (the old way) for fun and did for a part job throughout the late 90s an early 00s so recognised instantly what was going on.
Many a time I'd set up large Mackies and a "pa type disco set" kit in my living room as a early 20yr old in moments of idiocy and alcohol to find it overbearing and sterile.
I've experienced all kinds of acoustic anomalies at different venues both small and big covering every type of shape thinkable especially through the 90s rave scene best forgotten.
I even played in an old factory but mostly smokey workman's clubs s😦
I certainly wasn't any David Guetta or Carl Cox😁
I tried software bandaids going far to in-depth as usual and purchasing better microphones then looping through various programs to find little difference could be made until pushing past the line of it actually sounding worse.
I find it a much more capable with AV equipment.

I recognise it was not all the fault of the software (rew being the better one)
Simply put despite marketing bs I knew it was asking the impossible from it.
I have however had good results in less afflicted rooms.

With single glazed windows all along one side of a smaller room and a huge alcove it didn't really matter what was done it was an acoustic nightmare.

Digressing I had much much more success doing the old way and EQing the room myself with a quality EQ (bellari 570) on my lap in real time making large to minute adjustments by ear.
EQing in realtime whilst hearing the difference made has your ear telling you what needs adjusting in-line with your preferences.
You hear what your doing as opposed to letting software provide a frequency range a using a maths equation from the microphone data.
For the most part that's what Dirac etc does but it can slightly alter speaker phasing which I've never been a fan of mucking around with on software's especially Dirac it adds an artificial sound to my ears, some I've heard say it sounds flat.
I had it almost where I wanted it but back came the niggles of knowing prior to moving my main set-up into another room it could sound frission inspiringly good.
Anyway there's plenty on-line about this little gem.
Please see link if interested

Bellari EQ570–WOW WOW WOW

Oh wow!! I just got the EQ570 a few minutes ago, and currently listening to music through it as I type this. I have goosebumps. My home office stereo system has been bugging me for years now—it doesn’t have the same uumph! factor as my main system. It lacks liveliness, and not as engaging...

audiosciencereview.com

I knew putting off the inevitable room treatments was costing me the sound I built towards and the joy it brought.
I found myself spending more time with a second hifi in the original room the main one was moved from.

Getting straight to it I blocked off the alcove with wardrobe doors on runners which made a dramatic difference.
It cost next to nothing only paying for the runners and rail as I had the wood panels already.

The walls were dealt with chiefly the one directly behind me completely covering it with acoustic paneling to a absorb the sound reverberation which was sapping out the bass by cancelling it out.
Knowing that when sound reverberates excessively, it can often make the bass frequencies seem quieter because the reflected waves can interfere with the original bass signal, causing a phenomenon which effectively cancels out some of the low-frequency energy, resulting in a less impactful bass sound.
Bass frequencies have longer wavelengths, making them more susceptible to interference from reflected sound waves in a reverberant space.

In essence-
When reflected sound waves reach your ears slightly out of sync with the original bass signal, they can partially cancel each other out, reducing the perceived volume of low frequencies"

I also placed sound absorbing sheeting around the room where needed and Rockwool in-between the joists in the ceiling.
I'm on with fitting a sound absorbing stage curtain to draw over the single pane windows.
I rent my home so can't replace them with double glazing.
(Tbh it would cost more to deal with it that way)

The Rockwool is more soundproofing as opposed to sound absorbing and because I had it left over to stop sound traveling.

I tried a dry run with the curtain up temporarily and the difference was immediate and for the better.
Not a difference you had to listen for like when using software but an immediate unmistakable improvement.

Contrary to belief and using decent materials it didn't cost as much as people think.
I can see how it would rack up cost if the work was carried out by someone else.
I will find out the make and where I bought the sound absorbent sheeting when I get home.

You will have to let me know how you get on and what you decide.

 

[twinkletoes]

Before you start any of the things mentioned, and before you spend any money, you need to use room EQ wizard and a microphone (the mic might cost you) to measure the sound in your room at your listening spot. Then, move the speakers and measure again and keep doing it until you have full picture of your room . Once you have the measurements, you can start adding treatment or any EQ.

It’s important to note that without doing this, adding treatment can actually rob the sound just as much as room mode and will be the very definition of p!ssing money up the wall.

Digital EQ should be seen as a cherry on top, not as a cure, no matter how they market it. And it will not solve room suck outs, boosts are easy sucks are much harder and are really only solved by physical treatments and precise placement of speakers

But I don’t need any of this to see that you’re sitting in a room mode and that your speakers are too wide address this first using the equilateral triangle rule.

Measure the distance from your media unit to your seated position. That’s how wide your speakers should be at the maximum, fine tune from there. If the speakers are a foot off the wall that how far you head needs to be from the wall also. Everything need to measure the same in the first instance . Get this all right first then address any short comings like balance issues (no room is completely plumb)

Remember 5mm here and there can make a massive difference

Until you do the fundamental there is really nothing else anybody can help you with. What ever you do dont throw money at it without data.