Question Advice for better sound at lower volume

[record_spot]

The industry has no choice - it's law, set by Government.

You could argue that if people were using their local dealers, they'd still have local dealers. They've lost them due to the likes of DSR regs, rising rents and rates, dwindling customers and profit margins, etc etc. You could argue the hi-fi industry was healthy until the emergence of the internet around the mid 90s. Having started in this industry in 1990, I'd agree. Some manufacturers don't allow mail order of their products, so that customers go visit a local dealer - they're the ones recognising slow but reliable growth, building a good reputation that gives owners a good second hand value. It's those that have always allowed mail order, or relaxed their mail order options over the COVID period can't go back from that, as they desparately chasing their tail for growth.

No Dave, you've got this all wrong.

With the advent of commercially available internet in the late 1990s, the business world jumped on it. Protections were introduced, correctly as you say by government. Good on government because that protects lots of people including you and me. So we all benefit as consumers. From time to time, the legislation updates as needed to ensure that protection is enhanced. All the better.

Then you say "well, if people were using their local dealers, they'd still have dealers", er, well, if the industry moved quickly enough and dealers were adept enough to pick up on trends that fitted with a new generation of buyers then maybe, yeah.

But those dealers that do their stuff well are still in business. Loud and Clear in Edinburgh, Hi Fi Corner (patchy on my experience), Tyson's etc, etc. But the last two both of them said "have you looked at the website" before anything else. So if you want your dealers to meet customer needs, they need to have the goods upfront for those needs to be met.

Rising rents and rates: the ballpark you play in.

Dwindling Customers: Nope, they're all still there. That's bollocks.

Profits Margins: 25% was healthy enough a decade ago. These days, well, let's have a look at what's being flogged off on Ebay for a fat discount. Tyson's were selling Chord Shawlines for £90 a metre pair for a cable that sold for £250 beforehand a year or so back. I should know, I bought three sets.

As to the rest of your post - massively moot point. One or two dealers might try and go down the instore only route, but anybody going down the mail order option is subject to the legislation. And good on the latter.

And the internet? Richer Sounds sold me a Cambridge 752BD universal player 12 years ago now. Still have it, still in working order and it's been well used. Online at that. They *volunteered* a return up to the end of January in 2015. I bought it at the start of December. If they can do it, so can you or the dealers you talk up.

You started in 1990? I started in this hobby in the late 1970s and was aware of the better dealers long before the DSRs kicked in. The likes of James Morrow in Edinburgh ("if I get it home and don't like it, can I swap it for something else?" - "Er.......") won't be seeing my trade anytime soon. And as for the wider industry, that's been tanking for good reason with firms going under, mergers and so on. Nothing to do with DSRs or easier routes to buy or consumer protections.

 

[Entrigo]

That's the world we live in now David. I stay at best 40 miles from my nearest dealer. None of whom I have a mentionable relationship. One of which I know wouldn't permit a swap if the gear didn't work in my home. I'll take online everyday and anyday.

Yes, and not many will do home demos. Hence, having also in the past realised that listening to something in a demo room will end up sounding nothing like it does in your own home, I tend to research extensively and then just buy used, so already "ran in" - which I am beginning to believe more and more it is just a ploy to avoid returns, as many people say - and if I am unhappy, I can just sell on at little to no loss (or occasionally at a small profit if I was lucky enough to bag a bargain - so it all evens out in the end).

 

[Witterings]

Slightly different as I only stream as opposed to Turntable but maybe some of the changes I've made may translate to the OP's situation as well.

i was getting extremely frustrated having gone down the "HiFi enthusiast route" and spent a not insignificant amount on a system that at low volumes just wasn't great. A lot of my listening is low volume as either we're sitting in the lounge feet from the speakers and just chatting but want some background music and most of my critical listening is when others are asleep.
My biggest complaint at low volume was how "muddy" everything sounds.

I'd started my own posts about lower volume listening and as a result tried using various Dirac curves to compensate but they never quite achieved what I was hoping for and what they gained in one area, they'd lose in another.
I also asked about swapping from floor standers to stand mounts and using a sub but the consensus was it wouldn't make much difference as a speakers sensitivity would matter more.

I made changes along the way upgrading from WiiM streamers to the latest Bluesound products, added a Chord Qutest and even the most recent change (literally only a couple of days ago), making sure my Amp's input was set to direct and each step has made a difference.

The Bluesound Nano offered greater "clarity" and separation of notes than the WiiM and the Chord did the same again, both helping at lower volumes, then I switched to direct mode the other day and it took it a step further.

Do I now have the perfect sound at low volumes, No ..... is it considerably better than it was and has it been taken to an acceptable level ..... very definitely yes.

In essence as others have mentioned the bass / treble drops at lower volumes so you'll never make it perfect .... however .... the greater the clarity is at the starting point the less of a detrimental effect listening at lower volume seems to have.

Just my experience and hopefully some of it's useful.

 

[manicm]

Slightly different as I only stream as opposed to Turntable but maybe some of the changes I've made may translate to the OP's situation as well.

i was getting extremely frustrated having gone down the "HiFi enthusiast route" and spent a not insignificant amount on a system that at low volumes just wasn't great. A lot of my listening is low volume as either we're sitting in the lounge feet from the speakers and just chatting but want some background music and most of my critical listening is when others are asleep.
My biggest complaint at low volume was how "muddy" everything sounds.

I'd started my own posts about lower volume listening and as a result tried using various Dirac curves to compensate but they never quite achieved what I was hoping for and what they gained in one area, they'd lose in another.
I also asked about swapping from floor standers to stand mounts and using a sub but the consensus was it wouldn't make much difference as a speakers sensitivity would matter more.

I made changes along the way upgrading from WiiM streamers to the latest Bluesound products, added a Chord Qutest and even the most recent change (literally only a couple of days ago), making sure my Amp's input was set to direct and each step has made a difference.

The Bluesound Nano offered greater "clarity" and separation of notes than the WiiM and the Chord did the same again, both helping at lower volumes, then I switched to direct mode the other day and it took it a step further.

Do I now have the perfect sound at low volumes, No ..... is it considerably better than it was and has it been taken to an acceptable level ..... very definitely yes.

In essence as others have mentioned the bass / treble drops at lower volumes so you'll never make it perfect .... however .... the greater the clarity is at the starting point the less of a detrimental effect listening at lower volume seems to have.

Just my experience and hopefully some of it's useful.

And of-course having an amp with good power and a well engineered volume control helps too.

 

[davidf]

No Dave, you've got this all wrong.

With the advent of commercially available internet in the late 1990s, the business world jumped on it. Protections were introduced, correctly as you say by government. Good on government because that protects lots of people including you and me. So we all benefit as consumers. From time to time, the legislation updates as needed to ensure that protection is enhanced. All the better.

Then you say "well, if people were using their local dealers, they'd still have dealers", er, well, if the industry moved quickly enough and dealers were adept enough to pick up on trends that fitted with a new generation of buyers then maybe, yeah.

But those dealers that do their stuff well are still in business. Loud and Clear in Edinburgh, Hi Fi Corner (patchy on my experience), Tyson's etc, etc. But the last two both of them said "have you looked at the website" before anything else. So if you want your dealers to meet customer needs, they need to have the goods upfront for those needs to be met.

Rising rents and rates: the ballpark you play in.

Dwindling Customers: Nope, they're all still there. That's bollocks.

Profits Margins: 25% was healthy enough a decade ago. These days, well, let's have a look at what's being flogged off on Ebay for a fat discount. Tyson's were selling Chord Shawlines for £90 a metre pair for a cable that sold for £250 beforehand a year or so back. I should know, I bought three sets.

As to the rest of your post - massively moot point. One or two dealers might try and go down the instore only route, but anybody going down the mail order option is subject to the legislation. And good on the latter.

And the internet? Richer Sounds sold me a Cambridge 752BD universal player 12 years ago now. Still have it, still in working order and it's been well used. Online at that. They *volunteered* a return up to the end of January in 2015. I bought it at the start of December. If they can do it, so can you or the dealers you talk up.

You started in 1990? I started in this hobby in the late 1970s and was aware of the better dealers long before the DSRs kicked in. The likes of James Morrow in Edinburgh ("if I get it home and don't like it, can I swap it for something else?" - "Er.......") won't be seeing my trade anytime soon. And as for the wider industry, that's been tanking for good reason with firms going under, mergers and so on. Nothing to do with DSRs or easier routes to buy or consumer protections.

I have a lot to come back with, but replying to your points would take way too long, so I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much everything. I can see from your kit list that you're on a very different side of this argument.

When I said 1990, that was when I entered the industry. It's been a hobby of mine since I was a kid with my Dad's system based around Pioneer PL12D, Sansui AU-101, and Jim Rogers JR149s - mid/late 70s.

 

[davidf]

Yes, and not many will do home demos. Hence, having also in the past realised that listening to something in a demo room will end up sounding nothing like it does in your own home, I tend to research extensively and then just buy used, so already "ran in" - which I am beginning to believe more and more it is just a ploy to avoid returns, as many people say - and if I am unhappy, I can just sell on at little to no loss (or occasionally at a small profit if I was lucky enough to bag a bargain - so it all evens out in the end).

A demo room is useful for comparisons - your home is where you need to hear a serious purchase. Particularly loudspeakers. A good dealer will at least loan you something to try in your own system.

 

[Entrigo]

A demo room is useful for comparisons - your home is where you need to hear a serious purchase. Particularly loudspeakers. A good dealer will at least loan you something to try in your own system.

Yeah fair point. Anyway, at the rate at which I change gear, second hand is the only real option for me - often is not just "OK I don't like this, I will return it" and more a "I like it enough but I have now realised I wanted a bit more". In the last year it has happened time and time again and often past the 30-days standard return window. The only time I did buy from a shop and returned because I wasn't happy with the sound was the Rega Fono MM, as I didn't feel it justified spending £200 for what it did compared to the Technics built in phono.

By the way, that now feels like a decade ago, just by the sheer number of phono stages I changed since, but it was just a year ago

 

[record_spot]

I have a lot to come back with, but replying to your points would take way too long, so I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much everything. I can see from your kit list that you're on a very different side of this argument.

When I said 1990, that was when I entered the industry. It's been a hobby of mine since I was a kid with my Dad's system based around Pioneer PL12D, Sansui AU-101, and Jim Rogers JR149s - mid/late 70s.

Happy to disagree, but disagree on everything? Really?

I think we probably both enjoy good quality audio and audio reproduction regardless of our setups, just as our respective choices of gear to deliver it are likely very different. But I couldn't say because I can't see yours as it's not listed. Maybe you're a tube gear enthusiast, maybe you love that "warm" sound some audiophiles talk about. Maybe you've a high end setup. Who knows...

And dealers can be excellent - just my experience in recent years leans towards the slightly negative. Lack of gear instore, the standard "it's all on the website", having to phone ahead to book a demo - fair enough - but just make sure you have the presence of mind to ask the dealer to maybe add in two or three alternatives in a similar price bracket that meets your wallet's budget. A good dealer will do this by default, but if they don't have the stock instore then they need to order it from their warehouse.

I'm in the market for a new preamp. Currently, I'm looking at a wide range, but would go up to £1,500 for something that suits my needs. The two main ones I have in mind are the new Onkyo P80 which I saw in action at Cranage last year. The other is the Leema Acoustics Neutron. Both have the requisite number and types of inputs I need, other options exist but not all have what I'm looking for.

Bit of a problem is not every dealer carries one brand or the other and most pretty much don't carry both brands and this makes comparisons of the relevant gear as you recommend becomes difficult as I can't compare the goods I'm after in the same demo at the same dealer.

So then I need to hope I hit lucky and find one near me that does (and remember, I'm 90 mins from central Edinburgh and a good hour from central Glasgow with Carlisle a similar distance to the south) or hope my audio memory is reliable and listen to two different items in two different listening rooms maybe hours or days apart. And then there's the secondhand market which offers up a whole host of options for less money in older gear. Either way, there's no way I'm traipsing off for a demo any further than that.

My experience in buying goes back to the mid-80s and 90s, when I could walk into HiFi Corner in Rose Street in Edinburgh, or at the top of Leith Walk and walk out with a NAD 3020A (Rose Street, 1986), a Thorens turntable (Rose Street, early 1990s) or a pair of Mission floorstanders (Haddington Place, mid-1990s) literally as passing trade walking in off the street. No demo prebooked, the shop just set everything up there and then. The Hifi Corner experience of today is very different and see my post on that elsewhere in this forum from last year.

So the drift towards online buying was set in stone by dealers themselves. To the extent that while Peter Tyson has a terrific branch in Carlisle, with massive floor space, the majority of it belongs to white electrical goods and TVs. The HiFi bit is reasonable, but not overly extensive. Again, "it's all on the website".