Accuphase near London

[matt49]

That's about as arduous as a tour of a Harem.

Well said. However ...

... harem tours are all very well, but they don't go on forever (more's the pity). Eventually you have to settle down with your chosen one. And the prospect of choice hangs over the tour. Hence the arduousness.

Just get the one that titillates you the most........Simples.

oke: AMS 35i :shifty:

It's on the list, don't worry :exmark:

Well, if nothing else, the AMS will keep you warm at night!

Quite handy where Cno lives.

 

[matt49]

Just remembered I didn’t post notes of an amp demo last week. Not worth starting a new thread so I’ll post it here, as it fits into the same price bracket as Accuphase, MF AMS35i etc, and visitors to this thread might be interested.

I compared two systems, both sourced from Linn Majik DSM playing ALAC files.

System 1: Linn Majik DSM > Linn Akurate 2200 > PMC 23s

System 2: Linn Majik DSM* > Rega Osiris > PMC 23s

This was one of those night-and-day demos. The Akurate system (1) had great dynamics, dug deep into complex tracks, and gave a great sense of ‘being there’. But it’s not a system I could live with. There was obvious distortion on cymbals and a general sense of graininess everywhere (graininess? granularity? you know what I mean). The upper middle register of pianos felt pinched. I first assumed this was down to the speakers. So far I have a hate-hate relationship with PMC, but every dealer I go to seems to want to use them for demos.

The switch to the Rega Osiris (system 2) was remarkable. No distortion at the top end; generally a less tiring, less digital, but also more exciting sound. Where I heard an edginess to male vocals with the Akurate (listening to Springsteen’s Hammersmith ’75 live recording of ‘Rosalita’), with the Osiris it disappeared. The upper mid-range is perhaps a bit too forward, and maybe there’s a bit less darkness around the notes than in the Linn system, but the gain in overall musicality and loss of graininess is dramatic. In the notes I wrote at the time I used the words ‘smile’ and ‘goosebumps’. Pianos were still not 100% natural, which might be the PMCs' fault, but having heard the PMCs on the end of the Osiris I could almost grow to like them.

* piping from the DSM’s DAC into the Osiris’s preamp, so avoiding the digital preamp in the DSM.

 

[Macspur]

Just remembered I didn’t post notes of an amp demo last week. Not worth starting a new thread so I’ll post it here, as it fits into the same price bracket as Accuphase, MF AMS35i etc, and visitors to this thread might be interested.

I compared two systems, both sourced from Linn Majik DSM playing ALAC files.

System 1: Linn Majik DSM > Linn Akurate 2200 > PMC 23s

System 2: Linn Majik DSM* > Rega Osiris > PMC 23s

This was one of those night-and-day demos. The Akurate system (1) had great dynamics, dug deep into complex tracks, and gave a great sense of ‘being there’. But it’s not a system I could live with. There was obvious distortion on cymbals and a general sense of graininess everywhere (graininess? granularity? you know what I mean). The upper middle register of pianos felt pinched. I first assumed this was down to the speakers. So far I have a hate-hate relationship with PMC, but every dealer I go to seems to want to use them for demos.

The switch to the Rega Osiris (system 2) was remarkable. No distortion at the top end; generally a less tiring, less digital, but also more exciting sound. Where I heard an edginess to male vocals with the Akurate (listening to Springsteen’s Hammersmith ’75 live recording of ‘Rosalita’), with the Osiris it disappeared. The upper mid-range is perhaps a bit too forward, and maybe there’s a bit less darkness around the notes than in the Linn system, but the gain in overall musicality and loss of graininess is dramatic. In the notes I wrote at the time I used the words ‘smile’ and ‘goosebumps’. Pianos were still not 100% natural, which might be the PMCs' fault, but having heard the PMCs on the end of the Osiris I could almost grow to like them.

* piping from the DSM’s DAC into the Osiris’s preamp, so avoiding the digital preamp in the DSM.

Hi Matt,

I'm not surprised about your findings of the Linn amp... their amps just don't do it for me. Interested to hear your thoughts on the Osiris though... I was very tempted by the matching Isis CDP before settling on the EMC1UP.

I look forward to read your findings on Electrocompaniet amps later... I have demoed the integrated you are going to try, but not the pre/power.

Mac

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm not surprised about your findings of the Linn amp... their amps just don't do it for me.

.....nor me.

I found the Rega better, but still not worth the asking price.

 

[matt49]

I'm not surprised about your findings of the Linn amp... their amps just don't do it for me.

.....nor me.

I found the Rega better, but still not worth the asking price.

Yes, the retail price is very toppish: the dealer had one S/H for £4K, though that's also a bit ambitious given that Rega don't have a track record at this price level (which I'd have thought would affect resale values).

Also for my money it's a remarkably ugly piece of kit. I like what they've done with the preamp stage though.

 

[Electro]

Hi Matt ,

It looks like you are enjoying yourself on HiFi journey

I see you opinion of PMC speakers has been softened as the equipment upstream get better , this is no surprise to me because PMC speakers are very good at just reproducing exactly what is fed into them , you hear far less of the speaker and a lot more of what is upstream and because of this quality they are almost the perfect speaker to audition amps and sources with .

As you probably already know I am as passionate about Electrocompaniet amplification as CNO is about the AMS mainly because my amps have given me so much pleasure over the years and I would like other people to experience it too .

If you manage to audition the Electro amps with PMC speakers you will be as far as I know the first person on this forum to hear this combination and if your love of music is as important to you as it is to me then you are in for a truly magical experience .

There are some important points to watch out for , the main one is to make sure the dealer has warmed up the amps for at least one hour before critical listening preferably longer also ask him to use the balanced connections when connecting the pre/ power amps also the source if possible .

Here is a review of the ECI5 amp you are going to hear to give you an idea of what you are letting yourself in for .

http://dagogo.com/electrocompaniet-eci-5-mkii-amplifier-review

The EC4.7 / AW120 combo should sound the same but with more of everything especially power , the WPC rating may be the same on both amps but the AW120 alone has a power supply that is more than double the size of the ECI5 at 1300 VA and is a dual mono design .

Having said all this I really hope you like them ray:

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt ,

It looks like you are enjoying yourself on HiFi journey

I see you opinion of PMC speakers has been softened as the equipment upstream get better , this is no surprise to me because PMC speakers are very good at just reproducing exactly what is fed into them , you hear far less of the speaker and a lot more of what is upstream and because of this quality they are almost the perfect speaker to audition amps and sources with .

As you probably already know I am as passionate about Electrocompaniet amplification as CNO is about the AMS mainly because my amps have given me so much pleasure over the years and I would like other people to experience it too .

If you manage to audition the Electro amps with PMC speakers you will be as far as I know the first person on this forum to hear this combination and if your love of music is as important to you as it is to me then you are in for a truly magical experience .

There are some important points to watch out for , the main one is to make sure the dealer has warmed up the amps for at least one hour before critical listening preferably longer also ask him to use the balanced connections when connecting the pre/ power amps also the source if possible .

Here is a review of the ECI5 amp you are going to hear to give you an idea of what you are letting yourself in for .

http://dagogo.com/electrocompaniet-eci-5-mkii-amplifier-review

The EC4.7 / AW120 combo should sound the same but with more of everything especially power , the WPC rating may be the same on both amps but the AW120 alone has a power supply that is more than double the size of the ECI5 at 1300 VA and is a dual mono design .

Having said all this I really hope you like them ray:

Thanks, Electro, great review!

The dealer has promised to warm the amps up properly. I note what you say about balanced connections.

Matt

 

[matt49]

Having said all this I really hope you like them ray:

I do like them ... a lot ... :clap:

But the journey’s by no means over.

An interesting afternoon with the utterly charming and professional Electrocompaniet salesman at their London HQ (in an unpromising industrial estate in Hanwell). The one surprising feature of the demo was that the kit was piped through a pair of imposing but old and shabby-looking speakers. He said they were MAs that the EC engineers had modified to achieve a totally flat frequency range that would show the EC electronics at their best. I didn't feel like arguing ...

The electronics were:

System 1: EMC1 UP CDP > ECI5 Mk II integrated

System 2: EMC1 UP CDP > EC4.7 preamp > AW120 power amp

System 1 had great dynamics and a wide and deep soundstage (especially noticeable with choral music). Not a hint of distortion. Voices and acoustic instruments seemed true, though there was a hint of sibilance, and some brass and violins seemed a little shrill. Perhaps ‘metallic’ sums it up. I also felt that the bottom end, though true and precise, was a little weak. But overall a lovely presentation, thoroughly musical, and nothing grainy. A sound I could live with.

System 2 had the same overall tonal character, but was markedly better. There was still some coloration in the upper middle, but the sibilance wasn’t there, and there was more detail in the mid range, more space and more emotion. Whether it’s worth the extra £2.5K? Not sure.

In comparison, my little study set-up has a darker tone and a very limited soundstage. (The speakers are sitting inside a bookcase after all.) But instruments do sound more natural.

I think I need to listen to this kit again. It’s certainly still on the list.

 

[Macspur]

Having said all this I really hope you like them ray:

I do like them ... a lot ... :clap:

But the journey’s by no means over.

An interesting afternoon with the utterly charming and professional Electrocompaniet salesman at their London HQ (in an unpromising industrial estate in Hanwell). The one surprising feature of the demo was that the kit was piped through a pair of imposing but old and shabby-looking speakers. He said they were MAs that the EC engineers had modified to achieve a totally flat frequency range that would show the EC electronics at their best. I didn't feel like arguing ...

The electronics were:

System 1: EMC1 UP CDP > ECI5 Mk II integrated

System 2: EMC1 UP CDP > EC4.7 preamp > AW120 power amp

System 1 had great dynamics and a wide and deep soundstage (especially noticeable with choral music). Not a hint of distortion. Voices and acoustic instruments seemed true, though there was a hint of sibilance, and some brass and violins seemed a little shrill. Perhaps ‘metallic’ sums it up. I also felt that the bottom end, though true and precise, was a little weak. But overall a lovely presentation, thoroughly musical, and nothing grainy. A sound I could live with.

System 2 had the same overall tonal character, but was markedly better. There was still some coloration in the upper middle, but the sibilance wasn’t there, and there was more detail in the mid range, more space and more emotion. Whether it’s worth the extra £2.5K? Not sure.

In comparison, my little study set-up has a darker tone and a very limited soundstage. (The speakers are sitting inside a bookcase after all.) But instruments do sound more natural.

I think I need to listen to this kit again. It’s certainly still on the list.

Matt,

I've got a feeling, with those speakers, you may not have heard the best

Electrocompaniet has to offer.

Mac

 

[matt49]

Having said all this I really hope you like them ray:

I do like them ... a lot ... :clap:

But the journey’s by no means over.

An interesting afternoon with the utterly charming and professional Electrocompaniet salesman at their London HQ (in an unpromising industrial estate in Hanwell). The one surprising feature of the demo was that the kit was piped through a pair of imposing but old and shabby-looking speakers. He said they were MAs that the EC engineers had modified to achieve a totally flat frequency range that would show the EC electronics at their best. I didn't feel like arguing ...

The electronics were:

System 1: EMC1 UP CDP > ECI5 Mk II integrated

System 2: EMC1 UP CDP > EC4.7 preamp > AW120 power amp

System 1 had great dynamics and a wide and deep soundstage (especially noticeable with choral music). Not a hint of distortion. Voices and acoustic instruments seemed true, though there was a hint of sibilance, and some brass and violins seemed a little shrill. Perhaps ‘metallic’ sums it up. I also felt that the bottom end, though true and precise, was a little weak. But overall a lovely presentation, thoroughly musical, and nothing grainy. A sound I could live with.

System 2 had the same overall tonal character, but was markedly better. There was still some coloration in the upper middle, but the sibilance wasn’t there, and there was more detail in the mid range, more space and more emotion. Whether it’s worth the extra £2.5K? Not sure.

In comparison, my little study set-up has a darker tone and a very limited soundstage. (The speakers are sitting inside a bookcase after all.) But instruments do sound more natural.

I think I need to listen to this kit again. It’s certainly still on the list.

Matt,

I've got a feeling, with those speakers, you may not have heard the best

Electrocompaniet has to offer.

Mac

Mac,

you may be right, though bear in mind this wasn't just a dealer or distributor: it was the Electrocompaniet UK subsidiary, and the chap who presented the kit to me was an EC employee. And he very clearly said that EC engineers had fettled the speakers to get the best possible response. I can't see why EC would want to shoot themselves in the foot by showing their kit with a duff pair of speakers.

puzzled. :doh:

Any thoughts?

Matt

 

[Macspur]

Very puzzling indeed... did you convey your thoughts to the guys?

If so, what was their reaction?

Was it a specially acoustically treated listening room?

I'll be interested to see what Electro has to make of it!

Mac

 

[CnoEvil]

the Electrocompaniet UK subsidiary, and the chap who presented the kit to me was an EC employee. And he very clearly said that EC engineers had fettled the speakers to get the best possible response. I can't see why EC would want to shoot themselves in the foot by showing their kit with a duff pair of speakers.

puzzled. :doh:

Any thoughts?

Matt

Don't be.

Trust what you like.....no matter who has set things up.

As Mac says, with different speakers, it will sound very different.

 

[matt49]

Very puzzling indeed... did you convey your thoughts to the guys?

If so, what was their reaction?

Was it a specially acoustically treated listening room?

I did raise my eyebrows, and the response was that these speakers had been specially fettled to give the most neutral and transparent response. There was also a pair of KEF Reference 203/2s standing in the corner (or they might have been 205/2s).

The room hadn't been acoustically treated. It was just a mock-up of a (large) living room, albeit with loads of shiny black EC machines on the shelves. They'd gone to some lengths to make it smart and tidy. All very professional.

Matt

 

[Electro]

Oh dear I am not surprised at all at your findings , if I had known you were going to NSS to audition the electro amps I would have warned you that the listening room acoustics of that room are truly awful unless Simon has recently has some acoustic treatment installed , I told him truthfully what I thought and even sent him the details of a room treatment specialist to help with the problem .

When I last went there to have my AW 120 serviced I auditioned a pair of Nemo monoblocks upstairs in that room with a pair of MA standmounts connected to them for about 2 minutes before I asked him to stop, the sound was absolutely awful so he changed them for a pair of KEF reference floorstanders that were far better but still the sound was very dissapointing compared to my own system.

Simon did promise me that he would be getting a pair of the Electrocompaniet Nordic tone speakers to use for the demo's but he obviously has not .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/speakers/

It is a crying shame and unforgiveable that he seems to not have sorted out this problem and I hope it has not put you off Electro amps forever .

I urge you to try again maybe in a dealers listening room or prefereably at you home because they are superb amps and they deserved to be heard at their best which I have to say is very good indeed .

 

[matt49]

Oh dear I am not surprised at all at your findings , if I had known you were going to NSS to audition the electro amps I would have warned you that the listening room acoustics of that room are truly awful unless Simon has recently has some acoustic treatment installed , I told him truthfully what I thought and even sent him the details of a room treatment specialist to help with the problem .

When I last went there to have my AW 120 serviced I auditioned a pair of Nemo monoblocks upstairs in that room with a pair of MA standmounts connected to them for about 2 minutes before I asked him to stop, the sound was absolutely awful so he changed them for a pair of KEF reference floorstanders that were far better but still the sound was very dissapointing compared to my own system.

Simon did promise me that he would be getting a pair of the Electrocompaniet Nordic tone speakers to use for the demo's but he obviously has not .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/speakers/

It is a crying shame and unforgiveable that he seems to not have sorted out this problem and I hope it has not put you off Electro amps forever .

I urge you to try again maybe in a dealers listening room or prefereably at you home because they are superb amps and they deserved to be heard at their best which I have to say is very good indeed .

Electro,

what you say is very helpful and makes a lot of sense. Whilst the room was tidy and some effort had been made to make it feel like a living room, it did seem unnaturally bare. (It was also unpleasantly cold; every demo room I've been to has some kind of problem, whether it's acoustics, size, temperature, lighting or smell (!). It's really quite off putting.)

Despite that, the EC gear is still on my list.

Matt

 

[matt49]

So yesterday my wish came true, and I got to hear “Accuphase near London” — to be specific, Mac’s E350. Thank you, Mac, you’re a true gent. (More on that below.)

This was the culmination of an interesting day’s listening to amps, starting in Guildford with the Krell S-550i and Lavardin IT. The Guildford systems were:

Wadia S7i CDP > Krell S-550i AND Lavardin IT > Harbeth Super HL5s

The Krell was predictably brawny: massively impressive dynamics and wide soundstage. Actually I found it less “Krellish” that I’d feared. But the Harbeths revealed some graininess which I found unattractive.

The Lavardin was a bit smoother and more musical. Sweeter strings and voices. Good dynamics. Still a bit edgy. No remote control.

Mac’s system will be well known to everyone from his signature. It was great to have another listen through the beautiful HL5s, which are topping my speaker list at the moment. The Accuphase E350 is a thing of wonder and beauty. Its presentation is the most refined and delicate of any piece of transistor electronics I’ve heard. Maybe ‘refined and delicate’ gives a misleading impression, because the dynamics are terrific too. No lack of punch, but it’s an iron fist in a velvet glove. Leading edges are razor-sharp. Complex music is unravelled with amazing insight. Sweet and tight bass. Also the build quality is stunning.

On the Harbeth forum there seem to be quite a few people who pair Harbeth and Accuphase (mostly in the Far East, I guess, where Accuphase is far more common). I can fully see why.

I wanted to end with a smiley, but we don’t seem to have one that means “I’m in love”.

 

[CnoEvil]

On the Harbeth forum there seem to be quite a few people who pair Harbeth and Accuphase (mostly in the Far East, I guess, where Accuphase is far more common). I can fully see why.

I wanted to end with a smiley, but we don’t seem to have one that means “I’m in love”.

It pays to persevere.....and I'm not at all surprised at your findings.

I'm glad you are finding the path that's right for you...it can come as quite a revelation.

 

[Macspur]

So yesterday my wish came true, and I got to hear “Accuphase near London” — to be specific, Mac’s E350. Thank you, Mac, you’re a true gent. (More on that below.)

This was the culmination of an interesting day’s listening to amps, starting in Guildford with the Krell S-550i and Lavardin IT. The Guildford systems were:

Wadia S7i CDP > Krell S-550i AND Lavardin IT > Harbeth Super HL5s

The Krell was predictably brawny: massively impressive dynamics and wide soundstage. Actually I found it less “Krellish” that I’d feared. But the Harbeths revealed some graininess which I found unattractive.

The Lavardin was a bit smoother and more musical. Sweeter strings and voices. Good dynamics. Still a bit edgy. No remote control.

Mac’s system will be well known to everyone from his signature. It was great to have another listen through the beautiful HL5s, which are topping my speaker list at the moment. The Accuphase E350 is a thing of wonder and beauty. Its presentation is the most refined and delicate of any piece of transistor electronics I’ve heard. Maybe ‘refined and delicate’ gives a misleading impression, because the dynamics are terrific too. No lack of punch, but it’s an iron fist in a velvet glove. Leading edges are razor-sharp. Complex music is unravelled with amazing insight. Sweet and tight bass. Also the build quality is stunning.

On the Harbeth forum there seem to be quite a few people who pair Harbeth and Accuphase (mostly in the Far East, I guess, where Accuphase is far more common). I can fully see why.

I wanted to end with a smiley, but we don’t seem to have one that means “I’m in love”.

Matt,

Glad you enjoyed the experience and so good to read someone else echo my sentiments so precisely. Plus a bonus for you to find a speaker you enjoyed so much.

One can only wonder how much better the E560 may be!

Mac

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

The Accuphase E350 is a thing of wonder and beauty. Its presentation is the most refined and delicate of any piece of transistor electronics I’ve heard.

do you want to know why? putting aside the fact of using very high quality parts the secret is Accuphase is using current feedback topology to design their amps. most other amps around use voltage feedback topology. I see no point going into details why one is better than the other but the current feedback is in many areas much much much more technically beneficial than voltage feedback.

if you're willing to lay out cash for an Accu than it's fair enough but if you're willing to explore a bit more and save a few quid for music you could try out amps from Italian brand Audia Flight. those amps use current feedback as well, and reportedly sound very alluring as well. a class A FL50 power amp + Music First Audio passive transformer preamp would be my pick here.

also the big Primare A32 power amp uses current feedback. A32 is not a class D amp, as opposed to current brand's efforts, but highly biased AB amp.

 

[CnoEvil]

The Accuphase E350 is a thing of wonder and beauty. Its presentation is the most refined and delicate of any piece of transistor electronics I’ve heard.

do you want to know why? putting aside the fact of using very high quality parts the secret is Accuphase is using current feedback topology to design their amps. most other amps around use voltage feedback topology. I see no point going into details why one is better than the other but the current feedback is in many areas much much much more technically beneficial than voltage feedback.

What (if any) other brands use this......and is it necessarily a feature of Class A?

 

[gregvet]

a class A FL50 power amp

As there is no UK distributor, any info as to approximate prices for this amp, or any of there other items? Certainly nice looking amps.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

As there is no UK distributor, any info as to approximate prices for this amp, or any of there other items? Certainly nice looking amps.

drat! you're right. sorry for suggesting AF in those circumstances. however, I'm not afraid to buy blind if the gear meets my conditions with regards design principles and measured performance. but that's only me.

it seems there used to be one as there's a review of Audia Flight pre/power in Hi-Fi news from 2010:

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/audia-flight-pre-50-pound;3500-pound;4000/8979

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

What (if any) other brands use this......

this is a difficult question CNO because few manufacturers use such detailed technical information in their blurb. so there can be quite a bit of manufacturers utilising current feedback rather than voltage feedback but you wouldn't even know. there are clues though, if the amp has exceptionally wide FR (-3dB point lies at 300K Hz at least) and can be operated without speakers connected (because the feedback loop would most likely be closed before the output) than it's more likely than not that you're dealing with a current feedback amp. wide FR is most important feature of those amps because it's responsible for grainfree treble. as in wide FR means high slew rate and that translates to no problems with possible transient saturation at audible high frequency extreme.

so far I can only tell for sure that Accuphase and Audia Flight make current feedback amps. also Primare A32 is a current feedback and also high-end Marantz amps are current feedback (i.e. SM-11S1 or MA-9S2 monos).

however, I should mention here that IMO a current feedback amp is only the second best option. as they say (I hope) the best feedback is no feedback at all. but it's darn difficult to design a no-feedback amp that will measure well. however, if you do you know it will perform equally well with test sinewaves and musical programme. quite accidentally I found an audio manufacturer who makes such amps. they are mostly class A solid state amps with no global feedback. they measure no worse than other highest quality solid state feedback amps and in some areas a lot better, which TBH came to me as not so small surprise. therefore I know now that when the right time comes I'm placing an order with AM Audio.

and is it necessarily a feature of Class A?

no. for instance Accu and AF make AB amps too. the Primare A32 is AB. and the Marantzes are AB as well.

 

[matt49]

and is it necessarily a feature of Class A?

no. for instance Accu and AF make AB amps too. the Primare A32 is AB. and the Marantzes are AB as well.

Oldric, thanks for the technical insights.

The way I understood Cno's question was: do all Class A amps necessarily use current feedback topology? (Pls correct me if I'm wrong, Cno).

The Accuphase E260/E360/E460 (and ditto the older '50 range) are Class AB. The only true Class A integrated they make is the E560, which on current exchange rates would be somewhere in the region of £8.5K.

 

[CnoEvil]

The way I understood Cno's question was: do all Class A amps necessarily use current feedback topology? (Pls correct me if I'm wrong, Cno).

That is more what I was getting at, but it wasn't very clear....anyway, it's all a bit above my pay grade. :doh: