The Naim has a problem...

[chebby]

... I saw the 'R' range: R100, 300 and they are strange proportions. Quite small in height but unbelievably deep.

That's been the trend since the late 1990s with most loudspeakers.

I once did a sad little survey of this phenomena in speaker dimensions and 1997 - 1998 seemed to be the turning point where most major brands started making speakers that were a little deeper than they were wide. Go back just a few years from that point and most loudspeakers obeyed the 'wider and shallower' trend that had been prevalent since the 1960s.

One of the most ridiculous looking speakers I have seen recently are the PMC Fact 8s. (155mm wide x 380mm deep.)

Two speaker designers have admitted (on this forum) that it is mostly due to fashion / WAF / smaller rooms in modern homes and not, primarily, down to acoustic principles. This is why you will rarely see bass drivers more than 6.5" being employed in modern speakers and (partly) why the reflex ported cabinet has achieved almost total dominance over 'infininite baffle' (sealed cabinet) types.

Slim speaker cabinets look great in photographs and you'll rarely see them pictured at more than a slight angle. (To obscure their excessive and sometimes quite alarming depth.)

Add to this the usual recommendations to place speakers quite a distance from walls and corners and I honestly think that some of the old cabinets (of an equivalent internal volume) looked far more domestically acceptable and didn't require as much space.

 

[BigH]

... I saw the 'R' range: R100, 300 and they are strange proportions. Quite small in height but unbelievably deep.

That's been the trend since the late 1990s with most loudspeakers.

I once did a sad little survey of this phenomena in speaker dimensions and 1997 - 1998 seemed to be the turning point where most major brands started making speakers that were a little deeper than they were wide. Go back just a few years from that point and most loudspeakers obeyed the 'wider and shallower' trend that had been prevalent since the 1960s.

One of the most ridiculous looking speakers I have seen recently are the PMC Fact 8s. (155mm wide x 380mm deep.)

Two speaker designers have admitted (on this forum) that it is mostly due to fashion / WAF / smaller rooms in modern homes and not, primarily, down to acoustic principles. This is why you will rarely see bass drivers more than 6.5" being employed in modern speakers and (partly) why the reflex ported cabinet has achieved almost total dominance over 'infininite baffle' (sealed cabinet) types.

Slim speaker cabinets look great in photographs and you'll rarely see them pictured at more than a slight angle. (To obscure their excessive and sometimes quite alarming depth.)

Add to this the usual recommendations to place speakers quite a distance from walls and corners and I honestly think that some of the old cabinets (of an equivalent internal volume) looked far more domestically acceptable and didn't require as much space.

THink it started before 97, my Mission 780SEs were like that and that was in 1993? I quite like that shape.

 

[chebby]

THink it started before 97, my Mission 780SEs were like that and that was in 1993? I quite like that shape.

We can all find exceptions. I will counter your Missions with my 1992 JPW Sonatas (230mm wide x 215mm deep) and my 1998 Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearl Editions (217mm wide x 212mm deep).

1997 KEF Q35s (202 wide x 245mm deep) and 2000 KEF Q35.2s (207 wide x 276mm deep) show the trend increasing even in just 3 years and two versions of the same model type.

I dislike where this has ended up.

 

[plastic penguin]

For me the depth is the most important, more so than width. Couple of examples:

RS6s, including front grilles (26cm. Currently sitting 17" from wall)

Kef R100, according to kef website: 29cm deep

Kef R300 ---------- ditto ---------------: 34cm deep

Totem Rainmakers : 23cm deep

Totem Arros : 18cm deep

The whole point of standmounts is to use in small rooms, or have I got that totally wrong?

Just to put into perspective the R300s are 5cm deeper than MA PL100s.

 

[stevebrock]

PP, when I demoed the R100 - was really put by the depth of the cabinets - bet they are precarious on stands too!

 

[plastic penguin]

It's ridiculous depth. If I eventually change the room around it wouldn't be a problem, but if I had a box room I'd avoid them like the plague. Doesn't matter how good they may sound, either. I know you can 'bung' them, but what's the point of using bungs - I've never used them on the RS6s.

 

[chebby]

Some bookshelf (hah!) speakers are starting to mimc the proportions of a typical US mailbox (especially when they are on stands the resemblance is even more striking),

It it carrries on like this, today's compact floorstander cabinet will become tomorrows stand mount. (They'll just turn the cabinet through 90 degrees and put the drivers where the top used to be!)

 

[plastic penguin]

Not wrong there, Chebby.

This is why my shortlist was carefully chosen

Totem Rainmakers, ProAc D2 which is the same depth as the RS6s... while the Kefs have definitely been scrubbed.

TBH, Mrs. P wouldn't be too happy if she saw the depth of those Kefs.

 

[stevebrock]

Totems!

 

[p_m_brown]

PP, when I demoed the R100 - was really put by the depth of the cabinets - bet they are precarious on stands too!

Not at all precarious Steve, good weighty cabinets so very well balanced on stands. Sound and look great IMO!

 

[plastic penguin]

PP, when I demoed the R100 - was really put by the depth of the cabinets - bet they are precarious on stands too!

Not at all precarious Steve, good weighty cabinets so very well balanced on stands. Sound and look great IMO!

Don't doubt the SQ, but when I clocked'em at the dealers I was gobsmacked by the depth. If they're meant to be bookshelf speakers you'd need ruddy strong shelves and walls.

 

[plastic penguin]

Totems!

We'll see. The Totems certainly tick most of the boxes but also like the look of the ProAc D2s as well. And the GB1is....

As long as the new speaker doesn't exceed 29cms then it's doable.

 

[chebby]

And the GB1is....

No longer made.

You'd have to get used ones.

 

[plastic penguin]

And the GB1is....

No longer made.

You'd have to get used ones.

I know...

Unilet have currently got a pair of ex-dem for just over a grand.

 

[BigH]

THink it started before 97, my Mission 780SEs were like that and that was in 1993? I quite like that shape.

We can all find exceptions. I will counter your Missions with my 1992 JPW Sonatas (230mm wide x 215mm deep) and my 1998 Mordaunt Short MS20i Pearl Editions (217mm wide x 212mm deep).

1997 KEF Q35s (202 wide x 245mm deep) and 2000 KEF Q35.2s (207 wide x 276mm deep) show the trend increasing even in just 3 years and two versions of the same model type.

I dislike where this has ended up.

Not saying they were not others but the Missions are 26 deep inc. grills but only 18cm wide. Missions were popular at the time so guess others followed.

 

[BigH]

PP, when I demoed the R100 - was really put by the depth of the cabinets - bet they are precarious on stands too!

Not at all precarious Steve, good weighty cabinets so very well balanced on stands. Sound and look great IMO!

Don't doubt the SQ, but when I clocked'em at the dealers I was gobsmacked by the depth. If they're meant to be bookshelf speakers you'd need ruddy strong shelves and walls.

Bookshelf is just an old term, standmounts would be better term and no they are not just for small rooms, some prefer standmounts to Floorstanders any day never mind the room size.

 

[richardw42]

Stand Mount for small rooms, Floorstanders for large rooms is such a generalisation.

Ive got my stand mounts in a 19x12 room

FS in a 12x12 room.

Its not just the equipment that struggles to move with the times. Attitudes do too.

 

[chebby]

Bookshelf is just an old term...

B####ks.

From KEF's website today (R100)...

"The KEF R100 is a masterpiece in miniaturisation. Fast, clean and agile, with a low-end performance you would expect from a speaker double its size or with a dedicated LF driver, the R100 has a brilliantly designed full range Uni-Q driver array that makes the smallest R Series bookshelf speaker an astonishing performer."

From B&W website today...

"The smallest model in the 600 series is an incredibly versitile loudspeaker. It is an ideal bookshelf speaker for stereo in smaller rooms, but also a refined rear speaker in home theatre systems."

I am sure there are more.

 

[richardw42]

Hi Fi companies, heh ? Bookshelf seems to be a mis used term across the industry.

PI don't think the customer seriously thinks of them as BS speakers.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

There's always Neat http://www.neat.co.uk/p_pages/petite.php

 

[chebby]

Hi Fi companies, heh ? Bookshelf seems to be a mis used term across the industry.

 

[plastic penguin]

PP, when I demoed the R100 - was really put by the depth of the cabinets - bet they are precarious on stands too!

Not at all precarious Steve, good weighty cabinets so very well balanced on stands. Sound and look great IMO!

Don't doubt the SQ, but when I clocked'em at the dealers I was gobsmacked by the depth. If they're meant to be bookshelf speakers you'd need ruddy strong shelves and walls.

Bookshelf is just an old term, standmounts would be better term and no they are not just for small rooms, some prefer standmounts to Floorstanders any day never mind the room size.

The whole modern day concept of bookshelf speakers is total bullarks. If I was to choose the R300s they would still need to be at least 17" from the back wall (back of speaker) which means they'll stick out 9cms further at the front and protrude into the living space. Lengthwise my living room is fine but it's the width that makes it borderline. So in the present room configuration speakers such as the R300 are firmly off the menu.

It bloody annoys me because I'd love to hear them. No point if I can't make them work in our space.

 

[Sospri]

So get a new space, don't blame the industry..................

 

[plastic penguin]

So get a new space, don't blame the industry..................

How's one do that? Perhaps I should employ Sooty to magic me a new space.

Can't make honey out of dog s***

 

[stevebrock]

Neat Iotas really are bookshelf speakers and sound bloody good even with Marantz amplifacation

Oh yeah - they are designed to go on a 'bookshelf'