Rega Elicit R - Happy

[paul darwin]

Hi NHL,

Thanks for the suggestion, the number of cases of mechanical hum from transformers is statistically miniscule and is often attributable to the quality of the incoming mains and / or other local factors.

Therfore the additional costs of putting extra circuitry in our products would be bourne by the thousands of users who do not experience any problems whatsoever, notwithstanding any potential effects on the performance of our products.

Best,

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

 

[davedotco]

Interesting that the forums (most) favourite amplifier manages a similar output capability from a power supply rated at a maximum of 155va.

Which just goes to show there are watts and there are watts........ :?

Do the maths yourself Dave. 26-0-26 volts @ 6amps and 8 volts @ 1 amp. Equals 320Va but it will be wound on a 400Va frame. How they get 40 watts a side from a 155Va transformer I don't know. Please tell me. :?

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

 

[Richard Allen]

Hi NHL,

Thanks for the suggestion, the number of cases of mechanical hum from transformers is statistically miniscule and is often attributable to the quality of the incoming mains and / or other local factors.

Therfore the additional costs of putting extra circuitry in our products would be bourne by the thousands of users who do not experience any problems whatsoever, notwithstanding any potential effects on the performance of our products.

Best,

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

Hi Paul.

Just as a matter of interest, doesn't the mains electricity have to be of a certain quality in this country?. Just wondered if any of your engineers have ever 'scoped' the mains at your place. I did it here a while ago and the waveform wasn't the greatest in the world.

 

[Richard Allen]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

Don't talk to Elves, Fairies or Pixies down the bottom of the garden Dave. They might answer me back !! :rofl:

 

[chebby]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

No matter how much you 'gun' for Marantz's M-CR6nn products, it doesn't alter the fact that they sound incredibly good and their performance far exceeds their cost.

You seem to have an 'agenda' regarding them (displayed in your numerous posts & sideswipes at these devices since you've been here). Please remember I cheerfully migrated from a Naim Nait 5i / NAT05 / CD5i system with remarkably little drop in sound quality overall. (Obviously there was a drop, but nowhere near as much as I had expected.)

I can still confidently say that if you sent me a free set of Naim seperates today, they would be listed on ebay this evening and not my Marantz! (Although I might have to think twice if you sent me a free Uniti 2.*)

*Still the nearest, substantial, upgrade that comes closest to replicating all the 'functionality' of an M-CR610 if you added an ATV for AirPlay.

 

[davedotco]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

No matter how much you 'gun' for Marantz's M-CR6nn products, it doesn't alter the fact that they sound incredibly good and their performance far exceeds their cost.

You seem to have an 'agenda' regarding them (displayed in your numerous posts & sideswipes at these devices since you've been here). Please remember I cheerfully migrated from a Naim Nait 5i / NAT05 / CD5i system with remarkably little drop in sound quality overall. (Obviously there was a drop, but nowhere near as much as I had expected.)

I can still confidently say that if you sent me a free set of Naim seperates today, they would be listed on ebay this evening and not my Marantz! (Although I might have to think twice if you sent me a free Uniti 2.*)

*Still the nearest, substantial, upgrade that comes closest to replicating all the 'functionality' of an M-CR610 if you added an ATV for AirPlay.

I have an agenda only in as far as the fact that I appreciate product for what it is, not what the marketing hype or fanboys make it out to be.

If you follow my posts that closely then you will no doubt remember the one where I explained how, the advanced power supply and power amplifiers of the 610 were extremely convincing and had a capability of handling musical peaks that is far in excess of expectations.

Maybe you missed the one about how, with the right speaker, the 610 can produce room filling music without a hint of distress or obvious distortion.

My criticsm has been of misleading specs from Marantz and lavish (but sometimes unqualified) praise that results in some people suggesting that the 610 can and should be used to drive inefficient and demanding loudspeakers, an issue that, if I recall correctly, you have even commented on yourself.

 

[davedotco]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

Don't talk to Elves, Fairies or Pixies down the bottom of the garden Dave. They might answer me back !! :rofl:

Maybe they are nicking some of your mains power, hence the 'dodgy' waveform.

Out of interest have you compared mains 'purity' in different locations? One of the first occasions I came upon this issue was in a west end recording studio where the power amplifiers (Crown DC300A with 1000va frame transformers) were clearly audible 15ft away at the desk. There was much screaming at the agents for the amplifiers who insisted that they were all fully tested before delivery.

I ended up driving with the studio manager to the agents, located in a modern industrial estate, with the defective amps, only to find that on their test bence they were both absolutely silent. They had been placed face down on the bench so we could not see the power on light and were so quiet that for a moment or two we assumed they were not powering up......!

Can't actually remember how that particular issue was resolved, amps in 'soundproof' cupboard probably.

 

[Richard Allen]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

Don't talk to Elves, Fairies or Pixies down the bottom of the garden Dave. They might answer me back !! :rofl:

Maybe they are nicking some of your mains power, hence the 'dodgy' waveform.

Out of interest have you compared mains 'purity' in different locations? One of the first occasions I came upon this issue was in a west end recording studio where the power amplifiers (Crown DC300A with 1000va frame transformers) were clearly audible 15ft away at the desk. There was much screaming at the agents for the amplifiers who insisted that they were all fully tested before delivery.

I ended up driving with the studio manager to the agents, located in a modern industrial estate, with the defective amps, only to find that on their test bence they were both absolutely silent. They had been placed face down on the bench so we could not see the power on light and were so quiet that for a moment or two we assumed they were not powering up......!

Can't actually remember how that particular issue was resolved, amps in 'soundproof' cupboard probably.

I had a similar scenario back in the eighties with a pair of Quad 410s. The studio owner eventually came by an ex BBC auto transformer. You know the one. A coffin on castors. We fed the amps, desk, Multi and half track machines and all the effects thro this and it was problem solved. Got a feeling it was something stupid like 5KVa. Couldn't lift the b****y thing.

 

[davedotco]

You need to ask the Marantz elves on that one........

While you are at it you can ask them about their switched mode power supply that produces 2 x 60 watts (rms apparently) from just 55va maximum input......... :?

Don't talk to Elves, Fairies or Pixies down the bottom of the garden Dave. They might answer me back !! :rofl:

Maybe they are nicking some of your mains power, hence the 'dodgy' waveform.

Out of interest have you compared mains 'purity' in different locations? One of the first occasions I came upon this issue was in a west end recording studio where the power amplifiers (Crown DC300A with 1000va frame transformers) were clearly audible 15ft away at the desk. There was much screaming at the agents for the amplifiers who insisted that they were all fully tested before delivery.

I ended up driving with the studio manager to the agents, located in a modern industrial estate, with the defective amps, only to find that on their test bence they were both absolutely silent. They had been placed face down on the bench so we could not see the power on light and were so quiet that for a moment or two we assumed they were not powering up......!

Can't actually remember how that particular issue was resolved, amps in 'soundproof' cupboard probably.

I had a similar scenario back in the eighties with a pair of Quad 410s. The studio owner eventually came by an ex BBC auto transformer. You know the one. A coffin on castors. We fed the amps, desk, Multi and half track machines and all the effects thro this and it was problem solved. Got a feeling it was something stupid like 5KVa. Couldn't lift the b****y thing.

I've never really undestood why an inline transformer does that to mains voltage but have enough experience to know that it does.

For hi-fi use the Isotec product designed for heavy duty use (I used an old model, forget the name) worked well but at a price. I wonder whether a commercial isolating transformer such as those used on boats would have the same effect? You can get 2kva models around £500.

 

[paul darwin]

Hi Richard,

Traditionally the mains in the UK used be supplied at 240v as you know which then carried a -6% / +10% variance requirement, in 1988 it was altered to 230v as part of a European standardisation still with the same limitations, however, after 1/1/2003 the now 230v supply was then subjected to a -10% / +10% tolerance.

By my calcuklations the electrical supply companies therefore have to deliver a supply which can vary from 207v minimum to 253v maximum a variance of 46v, more than enough to tax any torroidal transformer.

This obviously does not address the issues of noise on the mains which can be massively affected locally by other equipment on the supply, fridges, boilers, PC's etc etc.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

 

[Richard Allen]

I've never really undestood why an inline transformer does that to mains voltage but have enough experience to know that it does.

For hi-fi use the Isotec product designed for heavy duty use (I used an old model, forget the name) worked well but at a price. I wonder whether a commercial isolating transformer such as those used on boats would have the same effect? You can get 2kva models around £500.

I think the principle is that the primary is wound at 0-240volts. The secondary is wound 120-0-120 and the 0 is tapped to ground. By doing this, all the crud goes down the centre tap. At least I think it's that. Racking brains now and can't really remember.

 

[Richard Allen]

Hi Richard,

Traditionally the mains in the UK used be supplied at 240v as you know which then carried a -6% / +10% variance requirement, in 1988 it was altered to 230v as part of a European standardisation still with the same limitations, however, after 1/1/2003 the now 230v supply was then subjected to a -10% / +10% tolerance.

By my calcuklations the electrical supply companies therefore have to deliver a supply which can vary from 207v minimum to 253v maximum a variance of 46v, more than enough to tax any torroidal transformer.

This obviously does not address the issues of noise on the mains which can be massively affected locally by other equipment on the supply, fridges, boilers, PC's etc etc.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

Hi Paul.

Thanks for your kind response. The mains here never drops below 235vac but the last time I scoped it the waveform wasn't the greatest in the world although not bad enough to tax the toroidals I have here.

I think the biggest offenders for mains borne noise are SMPSs in computers, inductive loads like motors although funnily enough not to the same degree with 3 phase units. Probably because they don't have a neutral. It seems to me that the trouble is in the neutral line as opposed to the live. Of course nowadays a lot of kit is double insulated and doesn't have an earth. The big stuff does like HiFi but things like netbooks and laptops don't and, ironically, they seem to be the biggest offenders.

It's funny. 10 years ago this problem wasn't around but with the computer age and all that this has now come to light and it's not a problem that is unique to Rega. I've heard toroidal based kit hum one day and not hum the next in the same place and same power socket as well. Frustrating to say the least but, by virtue of what it is, an inevitable consequence although small in the greater scheme of things as you rightly said but still annoying when it rears its ugly head.

 

[stevebrock]

Paul,

Thanks for replying - I am certain my mains is not the problem! My old Brio R, and the first Elcit R never hummed or buzzed - however this replacement does so it will be interesting to see if this is replicated at the dealers. Cymbiosis have offered me a refund which I initially declined as I wanted to give a 3rd Elicit R another go but may take that option which is unfortunate.

Regards

 

[kikiso]

Hi Chebby, my cart is the basic 2M Blue.

 

[davedotco]

Hi Richard,

Traditionally the mains in the UK used be supplied at 240v as you know which then carried a -6% / +10% variance requirement, in 1988 it was altered to 230v as part of a European standardisation still with the same limitations, however, after 1/1/2003 the now 230v supply was then subjected to a -10% / +10% tolerance.

By my calcuklations the electrical supply companies therefore have to deliver a supply which can vary from 207v minimum to 253v maximum a variance of 46v, more than enough to tax any torroidal transformer.

This obviously does not address the issues of noise on the mains which can be massively affected locally by other equipment on the supply, fridges, boilers, PC's etc etc.

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

Hi Paul.

Thanks for your kind response. The mains here never drops below 235vac but the last time I scoped it the waveform wasn't the greatest in the world although not bad enough to tax the toroidals I have here.

I think the biggest offenders for mains borne noise are SMPSs in computers, inductive loads like motors although funnily enough not to the same degree with 3 phase units. Probably because they don't have a neutral. It seems to me that the trouble is in the neutral line as opposed to the live. Of course nowadays a lot of kit is double insulated and doesn't have an earth. The big stuff does like HiFi but things like netbooks and laptops don't and, ironically, they seem to be the biggest offenders.

It's funny. 10 years ago this problem wasn't around but with the computer age and all that this has now come to light and it's not a problem that is unique to Rega. I've heard toroidal based kit hum one day and not hum the next in the same place and same power socket as well. Frustrating to say the least but, by virtue of what it is, an inevitable consequence although small in the greater scheme of things as you rightly said but still annoying when it rears its ugly head.

I beg to differ on that one.

Some years ago one of the big problems was CRT televisions. Half wave rectification was used to generate a large trigger (is that the right word?) voltage and for some reason it always seemed to distort the same half of the sinewave.

Large numbers of TVs in a residential street caused mayhem and was the source of most of the problems I experienced as a dealer. It also explains why, in a nice modern industrial unit with few TVs, the amplifiers were absoluely silent

 

[Richard Allen]

Sorry Dave, Yes you're right. I forgot them and I served my apprenticeship on Colour tellys.

By large trigger voltage I assume you are referring to the PY500 rectifier that used to feed the tripler to generate 27Kv to the top cap.

Sorry mate. Completely forgot about CRTs. To be fair though, most transformers were laminates then. Just think of the mayhem if they'd all been toroidals.

 

[Dazmb]

Hi NHL,

Thanks for the suggestion, the number of cases of mechanical hum from transformers is statistically miniscule and is often attributable to the quality of the incoming mains and / or other local factors.

Therfore the additional costs of putting extra circuitry in our products would be bourne by the thousands of users who do not experience any problems whatsoever, notwithstanding any potential effects on the performance of our products.

Best,

Paul Darwin

Rega Research

So can we read into that then Paul as the numbers are low set against the total number of amps you sell, that if we have had an amplifier (of any make) that is silent and the Rega amp bought to replace it hums (as mine does - through the speaker and the actual amp itself), then we can say that it is likely faulty and we should be getting in touch with the dealer who sold it to us?

 

[plastic penguin]

Cymbiosis have offered me a refund which I initially declined as I wanted to give a 3rd Elicit R another go but may take that option which is unfortunate.

Regards

Take the refund and get a Pulse. It'll have very similar SQ, surprised if it doesn't, with a very good built-in phono stage - and will only set you back about £500-£600. That should put a smile on your bank manager's face.

 

[stevebrock]

PP - sorry fella - i did intially have a mooch at a Tucana - holy hell the price tag!

looking at Sugden A21, Creek Destiny 2, Exposure 3020

plus i want someting for that price with warranty

 

[ifor]

Many people here seem to be having a problem with the concept of an issue being multifactorial. It's not as back and white as the amplifier being faulty.

 

[CJSF]

PP - sorry fella - i did intially have a mooch at a Tucana - holy hell the price tag!

looking at Sugden A21, Creek Destiny 2, Exposure 3020

plus i want someting for that price with warranty

Steve, if you are going that rout, I think you are right by the way, dont ignore the 'Croft Hybrid', it will take a lot of beating at the price . . . and of course Icon need to be considered dont they?
CJSF

 

[chebby]

PP - sorry fella - i did intially have a mooch at a Tucana - holy hell the price tag!

looking at Sugden A21, Creek Destiny 2, Exposure 3020

plus i want someting for that price with warranty

A nice looking, used Sugden A21SE (normally £2439 new) for £1499 'Buy It Now' on ebay from an official Sugden dealer in Yorkshire. (Fanthorpes.)

Or on the shop's own website...

http://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/sugden-audio/sugden-a21se-amplifier-2216531-418209-.php

They also have an 'ex-display' A21SE for £1799 (which, unlike used. will have a guarantee)...

http://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/sugden-audio/sugden-a21se-amplifier-2215632-281061-.php

 

[Macspur]

Good spot Chebby.

Nice guys up there too.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[plastic penguin]

Think steve will be in for a shock when he hears the Sugden. Don't doubt their quality but the tonal difference could be poles apart.

 

[stevebrock]

Yes thanks already seen the Sugden, not far from Lincoln either