Rega Elicit-R Soundstage?

[Covenanter]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

 

[SteveR750]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

Chris, would a manufacturer use an ideal load to generate a flat FR for marketing purposes, but in real life impedance matching is going to alter the shape of the response? "Tuning" output impedance must influence this?

 

[crusaderlord]

I have tried a number of amplifiers and recently stayed with Arcam. Every brand seems to have its flavour. I personally seem to prefer Arcam and have never found them sharp in the bass as one poster mentioned, if anything Arcam have always historically had comments about their smoother or laid back quality. However the A38 is certainly clearer then the A36 was. I have not heard the A39 which may be a new sound development for Arcam given its changes in production. I found Arcam has a much more open soundstage than Naim which is thicker and more closed in, but has strength in its rhythm and timing - very good but different. I always read good things about Creek but have never heard one, maybe i should try one day. Cyrus isnt for me though as i find them overly clinical and lean sounding, i prefer the fuller sound of the Arcam. As mentioned before you do have to match products, Arcam i found work well with Monitor Audio and Neat Motive, Naim also sound great with Neat and PMC. You just have to find out what you like.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it?  Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers.  Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design?  No it is very unlikely.  Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B.  Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage?  First and foremost it's the recording.  In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards.  Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position.  There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy.  As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

?

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again!  What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses?  If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies.  Can you show me one?

Chris

I swear Chris people call me a troll or tell me I'm a wind up merchant - honestly some of the replys I get from some of you I don't know if I should laugh and point at you or what....

Now were the hell am I suppose to get one of those to show you and why?

 

[YiannisK]

Hi Pyrrhon and thank you very much for the comments. My speakers at the moment are a total mismatch with the amplifier (quality wise) so you are certainly right that I need to try something better . I can also confirm that the Elicit-r has been quite picky with partnering equipment (not only speakers) in my setup at least. I was running my Naim Dac V1 as Dac only (fixed line out) into the Elicit-R line in. Over time and very gradually (over a few days), I became aware of some small listening fatigue creeping in. I cannot pinpoint what it is but the fatigue crept in. If I use the Naim Dac V1 as Dac and Preamp (variable volume) feeding directly the power stage of the Elicit-r, the fatigue disappears completely and the sounstage improves (even with my non-ideal speakers). I also experimented with the Sonos Connect line out feeding the Elicit-r line in. Again, no fatigue and amazing sound (even with the 'lowly' sonos connect).

It is very interesting that some reviews point to the Elicit-r being VERY detailed and forward while other reviews (shootout between Naim XS2, Exposure and Rega elicit-r) consider the Elicit-r as very opaque yet punch. Totally contradictory experiences in line with what you mention in your post regarding matching equipment. Having tested the elicit-r as described above I can see how the same amplifier can result in totally different review results...

I am now running the Elicit-R with the Naim Dac V1 as preamp but also with the Sonos Connect line out feeding the Elicit-R preamp. Two different sounds (slightly) to my ears. Both sounds definitely not fatiguing and lovely. Soundstage is better with the Naim.

I have not tried the Elicit-r with the Rega's own dac (might have to try out of curiosity).

As you point out of course... speakers will make the big difference

yiannis

Hi Yiannisk,

I remember Lionel Schmitt commenting very positively on the Elicit older model paired with Proac d15. He said that Elicit was a bit grainy and required very carefull speaker matching. That could still be true with the newer Elicit. I have also found mitigated comments ont the elicit wich leads me to think its picky with speaker match.

When I heard the Rega smaller Elex-R it had a great soundstage with Vienna Acoustics Beethoven. I would not be worried, your amp will do wide soundstage but probably with another speaker. I own proacs studio 148 (with nait 5si) and they stage wide and toward me to a point I cant beleive.

 

[YiannisK]

My experience with the Arcam A19 (owned for two years) was exactly the same. I was very happy with the flavour of sound and the soundstage 'felt' very wide. It was a joy. I heard the A38 briefly and it was even more amazing (same type of sound only better). Thinking that the new A39 would be the same but even better, I decided to try one at home. To my surprise, the A39 sounded a bit different to the A19 and A38. It was the bass. Very punchy and impactful but very very dry. So dry in fact that it sounded like a 'click' as opposed to a tuneful 'thump'. The bass and the rest of the music did not sound very cohesive. This was of course with the lowly MA RX1s so who knows, it might have been my speakers ... Either way, I could not relax with the music as with my A19. I was very suprpised by this as I really wanted to stay with the Arcam sound. I have not found many reviews of forum posts from A39 owners so it would be great to wait and see if others find similar or not.

Best

Yiannis

I have tried a number of amplifiers and recently stayed with Arcam. Every brand seems to have its flavour. I personally seem to prefer Arcam and have never found them sharp in the bass as one poster mentioned, if anything Arcam have always historically had comments about their smoother or laid back quality. However the A38 is certainly clearer then the A36 was. I have not heard the A39 which may be a new sound development for Arcam given its changes in production. I found Arcam has a much more open soundstage than Naim which is thicker and more closed in, but has strength in its rhythm and timing - very good but different. I always read good things about Creek but have never heard one, maybe i should try one day. Cyrus isnt for me though as i find them overly clinical and lean sounding, i prefer the fuller sound of the Arcam. As mentioned before you do have to match products, Arcam i found work well with Monitor Audio and Neat Motive, Naim also sound great with Neat and PMC. You just have to find out what you like.

 

[CnoEvil]

My experience with the Arcam A19 (owned for two years) was exactly the same. I was very happy with the flavour of sound and the soundstage 'felt' very wide. It was a joy. I heard the A38 briefly and it was even more amazing (same type of sound only better). Thinking that the new A39 would be the same but even better, I decided to try one at home. To my surprise, the A39 sounded a bit different to the A19 and A38. It was the bass. Very punchy and impactful but very very dry. So dry in fact that it sounded like a 'click' as opposed to a tuneful 'thump'. The bass and the rest of the music did not sound very cohesive. This was of course with the lowly MA RX1s so who knows, it might have been my speakers ... Either way, I could not relax with the music as with my A19. I was very suprpised by this as I really wanted to stay with the Arcam sound. I have not found many reviews of forum posts from A39 owners so it would be great to wait and see if others find similar or not.

At the weekend, I got a listen to a system consisting of Linn Akurate DS + Arcam A49 + Linn Akubariks.

It was very good indeed, but (imo) the speakers were not worth their cost (£8k IIRC), as I'd rather have some Kef R700s (£2k)....if the Arcam A39 is similar to its big brother, it will be well worth a listen.

 

[Covenanter]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

Chris, would a manufacturer use an ideal load to generate a flat FR for marketing purposes, but in real life impedance matching is going to alter the shape of the response? "Tuning" output impedance must influence this?

I don't think that actually makes sense, no offence intended. If an amplifer were to produce a flat frequency response across a resistive load then to make it produce something different across a reactive load would imply that in order to get a specific "voice" you would have to know the characteristics of that reactive load and that would differ from speaker to speaker so how would they get that right? I simply don't think that is possible.

Chris

PS Anyway the output impedances of ss amplifiers are vanishingly small so I don't think it would have a material effect even if you tried to do it.

 

[Covenanter]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

I swear Chris people call me a troll or tell me I'm a wind up merchant - honestly some of the replys I get from some of you I don't know if I should laugh and point at you or what....

Now were the hell am I suppose to get one of those to show you and why?

You don't have to of course but I'm just saying that in the absence of any evidence that what you suggest is being done actually is being done then I'm not going to believe it.

Chris

 

[SteveR750]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

Chris, would a manufacturer use an ideal load to generate a flat FR for marketing purposes, but in real life impedance matching is going to alter the shape of the response? "Tuning" output impedance must influence this?

I don't think that actually makes sense, no offence intended. If an amplifer were to produce a flat frequency response across a resistive load then to make it produce something different across a reactive load would imply that in order to get a specific "voice" you would have to know the characteristics of that reactive load and that would differ from speaker to speaker so how would they get that right? I simply don't think that is possible.

Chris

PS Anyway the output impedances of ss amplifiers are vanishingly small so I don't think it would have a material effect even if you tried to do it.

I wasn't sure it made sense either, hence asking the question! I was thinking about impedance matching, if you take an amp with a relatively high output impedance, e.g. Naim; and match to a speaker with a highly variable impedance load, the resulting response might be very different from an amp with a DF of >1000 with the same speakers? I guess then in reality, speaker impedance and power amp (SS anyway) output impedances vary so little that it has no discernible effect.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it?  Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers.  Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design?  No it is very unlikely.  Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B.  Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage?  First and foremost it's the recording.  In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards.  Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position.  There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy.  As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

?

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again!  What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses?  If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies.  Can you show me one?

Chris

I swear Chris people call me a troll or tell me I'm a wind up merchant - honestly some of the replys I get from some of you I don't know if I should laugh and point at you or what....

Now were the hell am I suppose to get one of those to show you and why?

You don't have to of course but I'm just saying that in the absence of any evidence that what you suggest is being done actually is being done then I'm not going to believe it.

Chris

Fair play.

But if a DSP chip can dramatically alter what you hear from an amp by manipulating the signal incoming - I don't see how you can think an amp can't be tuned.

Fact is the figures from the bench that are sold as spec, are rarely accurate.

 

[Covenanter]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

I swear Chris people call me a troll or tell me I'm a wind up merchant - honestly some of the replys I get from some of you I don't know if I should laugh and point at you or what....

Now were the hell am I suppose to get one of those to show you and why?

You don't have to of course but I'm just saying that in the absence of any evidence that what you suggest is being done actually is being done then I'm not going to believe it.

Chris

Fair play.

But if a DSP chip can dramatically alter what you hear from an amp by manipulating the signal incoming - I don't see how you can think an amp can't be tuned.

Fact is the figures from the bench that are sold as spec, are rarely accurate.

I didn't quite say that an amp "couldn't" be tuned but that if it were then it would have an unusual frequency response. If it were that strange then it would come out in independent testing. I think you can trust the specifications from major manufacturers, they would not risk their reputations.

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

Chris, would a manufacturer use an ideal load to generate a flat FR for marketing purposes, but in real life impedance matching is going to alter the shape of the response? "Tuning" output impedance must influence this?

I don't think that actually makes sense, no offence intended. If an amplifer were to produce a flat frequency response across a resistive load then to make it produce something different across a reactive load would imply that in order to get a specific "voice" you would have to know the characteristics of that reactive load and that would differ from speaker to speaker so how would they get that right? I simply don't think that is possible.

Chris

PS Anyway the output impedances of ss amplifiers are vanishingly small so I don't think it would have a material effect even if you tried to do it.

I wasn't sure it made sense either, hence asking the question! I was thinking about impedance matching, if you take an amp with a relatively high output impedance, e.g. Naim; and match to a speaker with a highly variable impedance load, the resulting response might be very different from an amp with a DF of >1000 with the same speakers? I guess then in reality, speaker impedance and power amp (SS anyway) output impedances vary so little that it has no discernible effect.

Speaker matching is very important and an amplifier which had an "unusual" output impedance would require more care.

Chris

 

[BigH]

I know what a sounds stage is- it's the aural image that you "see" most clearly when you close your eyes.

Can an amplifier change it? Well yes it can if it distorts the signal so as to change the ratio of the signals from the two speakers or it distorts the signal so that incorrect levels are presented to the speakers. Is either of those likely with modern amplifier design? No it is very unlikely. Pretty much all modern amplifiers have distortion levels well below anything humans can hear and that includes the differences between Class A and Class B. Soit seems very unlikely that an amplifier is going to affect the soundstage.

So what does affect soundstage? First and foremost it's the recording. In classical recordings it comes down to the placement of the instruments and that is particularly noticeable in pieces such as piano concertos where in bad recordings the piano is too loud which pushes it forward or too soft which pushes it backwards. Secondly it's the speaker / room combination and the geometry to the listening position. There are so many variables in that area that you can spend hours and days getting it right.

So IMO to get a good soundstage you should (a) buy good recordings and (b) experiment with your speakers until you are happy. As for the amplifier, as long as it is powerful enough to drive the speakers and is a modern design the I very much doubt it will have any effect at all.

Chris

There is so much wrong with this post, a contradictory effort.

Have you ever heard an amp with a DSP - Jazz, concert hall, etc. Have you heard the difference it makes to music.

Have you heard an amp with good power delivery drive a pair of speakers and compared it with a lesser designed amp driving the same speakers?

Recorded music is fixed. It will not change from device to device. It is what it is.

I mean even volume effects the 'soundstage' in terms of depth. ...your 'opinion' could not be more wrong.

Can you actually read?

Chris

Reading is the easy part, understanding is much harder.

Lol....

Look, I'm not trying to put anybody down or diss them - like the young folk say.

But c'mon, how are you going to argue 'if's'.... Then continue to argue all 'should' sound the same?

Different designs philosophys will yield different results - which become more apparent with time.

We know when all else remains the same in a set the sound can be completely altered with a press of a button.

So what makes you think a manufacturer cannot tune an amp to add its own signature?

I'll try again! What do you mean by "tune"?

Chris

Last time out someone asked me to explain 'assertive' ref an interconnect - opened up a can a worms.

Tune - manipulate the signal as it passes from input of an amp across its innards to the output of an amp.

Some amps deliver a better mid-range, ambient detail some a more detailed presentation others more bass.

This is by design.

I recall when Cyrus had to change certain materials in their Amps that resulted in a more robust sound according to WHF....

But I suspect you know exactly what's meant by the term.....

So, if as you say some manufacturers "tune" their amps for more bass or mid-range or whatever, why do they all have almost flat frequency responses? If for example an amp had more bass it would have to show a frequency response that slopes upwards towards lower frequencies. Can you show me one?

Chris

I swear Chris people call me a troll or tell me I'm a wind up merchant - honestly some of the replys I get from some of you I don't know if I should laugh and point at you or what....

Now were the hell am I suppose to get one of those to show you and why?

You don't have to of course but I'm just saying that in the absence of any evidence that what you suggest is being done actually is being done then I'm not going to believe it.

Chris

Fair play.

But if a DSP chip can dramatically alter what you hear from an amp by manipulating the signal incoming - I don't see how you can think an amp can't be tuned.

Fact is the figures from the bench that are sold as spec, are rarely accurate.

I didn't quite say that an amp "couldn't" be tuned but that if it were then it would have an unusual frequency response. If it were that strange then it would come out in independent testing. I think you can trust the specifications from major manufacturers, they would not risk their reputations.

Chris

Not sure they tuned them but its more because of the components they used. Arcam amps years ago used to sound warm, never heard Cyrus amps being described as warm.